More Janitor Access

[Karmasakakiki]

To begin with, the janitor is a role on the station which normally only has one to two, most of the time one person doing the job. This isn't difficult for people to keep track of, but, a lot of maint tunnels seem to have very awkward positions and purpose aboard the station. This made me think, what the hell is there a maint tunnel next to security by the security escape pod? Not very many people, but, what if there was someone who could use this in order to clean up. The janitors job is the clean the entire station. As such, the janitor needs to have access to more departments being maint tunnels. The only reason anybody would argue against this is to "power game" over a single role that is easy to observe and can already be very robust at kidnapping people. Give janitor access to these things.

• The Chefs Closet
• Chefs Kitchen
• Medbay
• Surgery
• Virology (lol)

And honestly that's about all the janitor really needs done to be able to do their job better while potentially being able to make matters on the station more interesting. It would be a convenient change in things without compromising the security and practical aspects of the station. Viology access is still viable because there could be the need to clean some surfaces there, but, the reason I believe janitor should have viology access as well is because it's fitting to Nanotrasens persona.

[McRamon]

What about janitor having all that access and security officers (mindshielded personnel) not? what about traitor chef hiding bodies in his freezer with "curious" janitor constantly checking that place? 
While being pretty simple noob-friendly job, it provides more ways for people to communicate (people call janitor to clean up their place, and janitor can ask hop for more access (yes, there is hop who can give more access, lets make his job even more useless?)). Another problem is - department access is also equipment access, if there was a way to give only airlock access and not vendors and lockers access - it would be an option. 

 

 

on a side note - janitor need to clean places - lets give him access to those places. 

security need to catch criminals and are mindshielded(trustworthy) - all access.

science need minerals - they can mine faster than miners, lets give them mining access. oh and botany, armory and captain's office, they need to get some items from there for research.

chef need to cook - easy botany access. let botanists grow dank weed without being bothered by chef.

paramedic - obvious all access

i hope you got it

[Karmasakakiki]

You opinion on Janitor. I'v seen janitor stand by the medbay doors and just enter all the time without hardly asking anybody and sometimes janitor is requested or janitor ask to go in. It's really a pointless step because it just waste peoples time and doesn't really contribute very much to the power game of a janitor role.

 

Security on the other hand shouldn't get all access because that's very intrusive and would allow them to mess around when they shouldn't. It would be to powerful and unbalanced against the antagonist. Most antagonist on paradise station get destroyed really quick anyway so I'm pretty sure giving security even more power is absolutely absurd.

 

Science shouldn't get all that access because the argument of power gaming. Power gaming is the largest argument against most of these ideas and why it is a strawman argument to believe the janitor argument is the same thing

 

Letting chef have easier access to botany would almost give the botanist no job.

 

Paramedic should probably have basic access to all departments, but, not all access. They certainly shouldn't have security access. Why? Because security already has a medical bay inside of it. Same for the mining asteroid.

[CPTCoffee]

This has been pitched before, but the only thing I'd agree on is kitchen access, since it is part of the service jobs. The reason why things are as they are, are because people choose to powergame and use those areas to get stuff they usually won't be able to get.  You can still go to the HOP to get access to the other areas, but it takes a bit longer.  

[BryanR]

There's also another problem with having the Janitor starting with increased access which is they'll essentially become a target for traitors to gain easy access to those areas if they don't have access and don't want to emag their way in and immediately get fingered as one.

Just get the janitor alone, take him out, grab his ID, you now have access to every section of Medbay except the Chemistry Lab. Not only could they assassinate a target easily or sabotage cloning of their targets, they could hinder Medbay greatly just stealing the surgery tools from the ORs.

It'll give them easy access to the gibber in the kitchen where they could gib a victim and well, make it extremely difficult to bring them back.

I think the possible issues with Janitor starting with increased access, even just those areas, far outweighs the benefits of removing a mild inconvenience of just heading over to the HoP's line and asking for increased access which would leave a paper trail of some kind, if not physical then at least verbal, so if the Janitor's ID somehow gets in the hands of an Antagonist they'd have some idea about it.

[Karmasakakiki]

On 12/2/2018 at 3:11 PM, Sihsse Zsak said:

 

So basically what you're saying is since the hop, captain, hos, ce, cmo, and rd shouldn't have the access they have now because it makes them a target? Look at paramedics, easy target to get into medbay. In fact if you want access to medbay, you only have to wait by the door and someone will open it for you even if you aren't damaged. Everybody is a target for their access and paramedics are the easiest to get because they will go to whatever corpse you lay out as a trap.

[BryanR]

1 minute ago, Karmasakakiki said:

since the hop, captain, hos, ce, cmo, and rd shouldn't have the access they have now because it makes them a target

They start with this access because its entirely relevant to their job of managing their departments.They're also not out and about running everywhere, including maintenance, which janitors are prone to do.

3 minutes ago, Karmasakakiki said:

Look at paramedics, easy target to get into medbay. In fact if you want access to medbay, you only have to wait by the door and someone will open it for you even if you aren't damaged. Everybody is a target for their access and paramedics are the easiest to get because they will go to whatever corpse you lay out as a trap.

Once again, entirely relevant for their job and the argument that someone will let you into Medbay if you wait by the door can also apply to the Janitor's increased access. Why give him such if he'll get in anyway to clean?

A janitor can still clean the station starting without the access outlined above, whereas if these individuals didn't have the access they currently do it would make it nigh impossible for them to do their jobs.

[TheClosetMailman]

As a matter of fact, granting the janitor more access than your average assistant will cause him to be found dead in a locker much more often y'know.

That, and powergamers picking him solely to zoom everywhere with their metabuddies.

 

 

If you want more access, ask the damn hop, they're your boss and will gladly give general access to help clean most messes.

Well, most cases, command tends to love janitors willing to clean in more areas than one, but a few HOPs are quite tight on additional access.

[Karmasakakiki]

Sihsee Zsak, you use the  argument I'm using to state all the heads have their access because it's relevant to their department, same for janitor having access to kitchen and medbay.

Also powergaming and metagaming is against the rules and you assume the games features should be based around the assumption that people will disobey the rules? If so, then why does any department have exploitability? the criticism you are all using is a double standard form of criticism and isn't actually making a point that can't be stated as being already practiced in opposite for any other role. It's like criticizing something already practiced as having the opposite effect then intended. It's like saying you shouldn't drink water because you'll pee a lot more often and peeing all over the place presumed to be a bad thing, therefore water bad. Can I get some real criticism here instead of just fallacies? 

[Mitchs98]

 

I see no reason for a Janitor to start with more access. A lot of Janitors are already greytidey and griefy, this would only let them be able to do so in more places as well as cause complications in workplaces. Most notably the Janitor slipping people for funsies in medbay/surgery, going into viro and accidentally releasing Space Aids, stealing everything not nailed down, etc. Not only that but as mentioned they'd be a target for antags that are allowed to kill for access. 

39 minutes ago, Karmasakakiki said:

Sihsee Zsak, you use the  argument I'm using to state all the heads have their access because it's relevant to their department, same for janitor having access to kitchen and medbay.

Also powergaming and metagaming is against the rules and you assume the games features should be based around the assumption that people will disobey the rules? If so, then why does any department have exploitability? the criticism you are all using is a double standard form of criticism and isn't actually making a point that can't be stated as being already practiced in opposite for any other role. It's like criticizing something already practiced as having the opposite effect then intended. It's like saying you shouldn't drink water because you'll pee a lot more often and peeing all over the place presumed to be a bad thing, therefore water bad. Can I get some real criticism here instead of just fallacies? 

You yourself have also not responded with any good viable reason for them to have access to any areas listed other than extreme hyberbole. Most notably this line here;

41 minutes ago, Karmasakakiki said:

It's like saying you shouldn't drink water because you'll pee a lot more often and peeing all over the place presumed to be a bad thing, therefore water bad

On 12/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Karmasakakiki said:

Security on the other hand shouldn't get all access because that's very intrusive and would allow them to mess around when they shouldn't. It would be to powerful and unbalanced against the antagonist. Most antagonist on paradise station get destroyed really quick anyway so I'm pretty sure giving security even more power is absolutely absurd.

It makes for more viable sense for security to get all access/extended access than it does a civilian janitor that really shouldn't be anywhere near wounded people/people being operated on under normal situations for sanitary reasons. Arguing that 'it's very intrusive' applies precisely to you wishing for Janitors to have more access as well.

On 12/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Karmasakakiki said:

Science shouldn't get all that access because the argument of power gaming. Power gaming is the largest argument against most of these ideas and why it is a strawman argument to believe the janitor argument is the same thing

No one said anything about giving science all access, merely extended access. Other than you of course. And the reasons listed was basically your reasons for Janitor receiving it? Efficiency? If the Janitor can get extended access to perform their job better, why can't Science? That is your basis for adding it right?

On 12/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Karmasakakiki said:

Letting chef have easier access to botany would almost give the botanist no job.

 

Actually not true at all. Most botanists are terrible at their jobs. If anything, it'd be a very good thing to give the Chef access to botany by default. It'd allow them to do their job better and more effectively if they didn't need to request to be let in or for supplies. Again. Same argument you're making for Janitor.

On 12/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Karmasakakiki said:

Paramedic should probably have basic access to all departments, but, not all access. They certainly shouldn't have security access. Why? Because security already has a medical bay inside of it. Same for the mining asteroid.

Brig bay isn't really usually equipped to deal with most severe injuries. And the medical area on mining certainly isn't. This still isn't a good reason to give them access to everywhere, including places they shouldn't be in. But if you're going that route why not all access? A body can appear anywhere, all access would allow them to do their job better right?

45 minutes ago, Karmasakakiki said:

Can I get some real criticism here instead of just fallacies? 

You are getting criticism, you're just choosing to ignore it in favor of spouting hyberbole and attempting to say the arguments are invalid. Some a little exaggerated, but still very valid. Something being against the rules or not does not mean to add more things for people to be tempted to toe the line with, especially if adding these things could be arguably added to nearly every job and role. 

Quote

Fallacy;

a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.

For the record. None of the responses to your thread had a failure in reasoning. Once more, you're simply ignoring them in favor of hyperbole and fallacies of your own. You've done nothing but deflect and provide poor reasoning as to why your suggestion should be supported. 

49 minutes ago, Karmasakakiki said:

the criticism you are all using is a double standard form of criticism and isn't actually making a point that can't be stated as being already practiced in opposite for any other role. It's like criticizing something already practiced as having the opposite effect then intended.

The exact same could also be said about your responses to the criticism, as I stated above. You have entire double standards for your idea and aren't registering the criticism in favor of trying to shove it down others' throats as to why your idea is a good idea and certainly not any different than what @McRamon mentioned.

[Karmasakakiki]

39 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

<Insert lies and propaganda here>

I'm not an activist, and I'm not a cynic. I'm just a person who wants to turn random, senseless violence into meaningful action. What follows is the story of how Mitchs98 can be so rich in the rhetoric of democracy and yet so poor in its implementation. He doesn't want us to know about his plans to accelerate our descent into the cesspool of disableism. Otherwise, we might do something about that. No joke.

Mitchs98 avows that he is a champion of liberty and individual expression. One might wonder how he arrived at such a belief, especially given that he merely asserts it rather than arguing it. Mitchs98 could have argued instead that he and his confreres have put in place the largest and most effective blacklist for ideas in the history of space station 13. The purpose of this blacklist is to rid various thoughtful people of paradise station and any other independent-minded people who might interfere with Mitchs98's designs. While such activities are merely the first step towards fostering suspicion—if not hatred—of “outsiders”, even if one isn't completely conversant with current events, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Mitchs98 is trying to get us to acquiesce to a Faustian bargain. In the short term this bargain may help us take stock of what we know, identify areas for further research, and provide a useful starting point for debate on Mitchs98's contumacious fibs. Unfortunately, in the long term it will enable Mitchs98 to develop a Pavlovian reflex in us, to make us afraid to criticize the obvious incongruities presented by him and his buddies. Mitchs98 has a staggering number of wrongheaded trained seals. One way to lower their numbers, if not eradicate them entirely, is simple. We just inform them that what we're involved in with Mitchs98 is not a game. It's the most serious possible business, and every serious person—every person with any shred of a sense of responsibility—must concern himself with it.

Imagine people everywhere embracing Mitchs98's claim that his ruderies prevent smallpox. The idea defies the imagination. While the concept of broad-based peace and social justice coalitions remains desirable, Mitchs98 doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. He uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead, and to deceive. While this message hasn't provided anything in the way of a concrete plan of action, it may help us focus our thinking a little better when we do work out a plan. For now, we must spread awareness of the putrid nature of Mitchs98's words. I will doubtlessly be happy to have your help in this endeavor.

[necaladun]

Ok, time to chill out. You're taking this way too seriously. You're talking about increased access for a janitor, not liberty or democracy.  For the record though, this server isn't a democracy.

 

We're not really interested in giving the janitor more access. They can get into areas if let in easily enough, or ask the AI. Part of the challenge of the janitor is just that - getting into said places.

 

[Karmasakakiki]

Oh okay. Thank you for being honest necaladun. For the record, I used the pakin generator for my last comment. The reason was because I felt the previous comment directed at me had ignored my points I was making and just didn't like the idea. You can close this thread now. Why the warning?