BrandonSacawv - Admin Complaint/Feedback

[Pennwick]

Admin(s) Key: BrandonSacawv (Not fully sure this is the only admin involved as they logged out before I could request if there were any others)
Your ckey (Byond username): Pennwick
Your Discord name (if applicable): Pennwick

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 12/14/2018 5ish AM

Nature of complaint:
Feedback, unrealistic expectations

Brief description:

Grilled and ultimately warned for lethaling a Vox harboring a Queen of Terrors

Full description of events:

Round was Shadowlings. I was a security officer. I received a mech about halfway through the shift for which I was extremely grateful even though it lacked non lethal options. I returned to robotics to get some but was called away to put pressure on Shadowlings. A pink event spider had shown up at the beginning of the round. At this point I believe the 2/3rds warning for Shadowling Ascension had gone out. The shuttle had been called. While walking past the janitors closet the door opened and dozens of spiderlings rushed out. I didn't get a good look at the time but I spotted a vox inside. I freaked out for a bit on radio and decided to focus on the shadowlings hoping it was isolated. The Queen of Terrors was called out via Central Command announcement so I returned to the Janitors office. A borg or the AI opened the door and inside was a vox (Chikai I believe but I'm not certain) and the Queen of Terrors. I opened fire on both. As the Vox was in front he took the worst of it and was possibly put into crit by my actions. The Queen escaped through a wall and I pursued to the best of my Durand's ability. At this point I was Bwoinked why I shot the vox.

I do not remember my exact response. If logs could be pulled I would not mind if they were shown. I defended myself with a combination of the Vox in question was harboring a Queen of Terrors and was therefore bad news and likely a threat, and the fact I was shooting mostly for the Queen. Which may have been not factual as the Vox was up in my face and I may have focused somewhat on him. I am sorry if I misrepresented myself but I was on the defense and may have mis-remembered facts. I was told that since the Vox was unarmed I should have detained and processed him.

Is this really a realistic expectation? Firstly, this Vox was harboring a Queen of Terrors and likely helping it to incubate its eggs by providing it a haven to do so as many more spiderlings than a single clutch escaped when the door was open. That goes so far beyond anything in space law, something along the lines of Mass Attempted Murder. Had the shuttle not been called early due to the Shadowlings then the majority of Spiderlings would have had a chance to grow up. In fact Admin BrandonSacawv was a Red Terror spider at one point. If thralls were given a kill order I see no reason why the Vox should be treated any differently. Secondly, I was supposed to determine that the Vox darting back and forth in front of my Durand was unarmed. Unlike the observing Admin I did not have the benefits of X-ray and full brightness. That door opened. I saw movement and I fired liberally at both targets.

I understand that Security is supposed to be held to a higher standard but that standard must be reasonable. Making calm and rational decisions with the benefit of a birds eye view and no consequences if you choose poorly is a nice luxury an observer has but not the officer breaching into a Terror nest. If an player can't feel secure in opening fire in a tense situation then it heaps undue stress on few players who are willing to play security. I try to be Goodsec, and its a lot easier when you're safe in the processing room. But once you're deep in a situation like that its likely kill or be killed. If this is the kind of scrutiny officers are constantly under then I want no part of the job and I can see why other players would feel the same.

[BrandonSacawv]

I believe you are misunderstood regarding the expectation that security is held to. Being able to correctly decide whether to use lethal force or non-lethal force based on the circumstances of a situation is a basic ability that all players, but especially security, should have. From your post, it sounds to me like you have an issue taking responsibility for your actions. There aren't any unreasonable expectations, as a matter of fact I just expect that you follow the rules.

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As a member of Security, higher standards of play are expected of you. You are expected to follow Space Law and Standard Operating Procedure correctly, when playing Security.

 

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Self-defense is allowed to the extent of saving your own life. Putting someone into Critical Condition is considered self-defense only if they attempted to severely hurt/kill you. Preemptively disabling someone, responding with disproportionate force, or hitting someone while they are already down, is not self-defense;

 

When you voluntarily decide to pilot a mech that only has lethals to do security duties, you're taking a greater level of responsibility upon yourself. You need to keep in mind when responding to situations that you're unable to use non-lethals and your approach should be tailored to that fact. There are multiple actions you could have taken that would have prevented what occurred, but instead you acted in a rash and poorly thought out manner. The player you nearly killed was not armed, had not attacked anyone, and was not providing any meaningful support to the spider besides hanging out in the same room. Lethal force was certainly not authorized against him.

Nobody is responsible for your actions besides you and you violated the rules during the situation. As a result, you got bwoinked and warned- which was an entirely reasonable response to your actions. I understand that situations can be tense and that mistakes happen, which is why you got a warning.

If you're not able to make calm and rational decisions as a security officer piloting a lethals-only mech, you should expect to get bwoinked eventually.

[Pennwick]

I would like another admin to weigh in on this. In my opinion you are placing a large expectation of absolute control over any situation as a security officer.

Under these circumstances: Shadowlings were close to ascending, the Self Destruct codes had been requested by command, a Queen of Terrors had released dozens of spiderlings into the station. It seemed imperative to act on what knowledge I had or more crew would die as a result of my inaction. As the vox was in the room as the Queen of Terrors, a creature not known for 'just talking' it was assumed to be in cahoots with the Queen. Just by not calling out the Queen of Terror laying Eggs the Vox was partially responsible for the deaths of crew most likely. I fail to see many alternatives I had. I could not act, which would likely result in the queen fleeing to a more secure location. Or I could enter immediately which I did.

I am regretfully unsure what my exact actions were. I remember primarily aiming for the Queen but BrandonSacawv insists I was aiming mostly for the Vox. I assume I stepped into the doorway only partway as to block exit for the queen and perhaps the Vox tried to run past me and caught more lasers. He was never the primary target but he may have been hit more.

Ultimately if another admin weighs in and says that Security is to be held to this standard then I'm going to have to back away from the role. My reactions aren't perfect and neither is my ability to process. The job is by far one of the most stressful on station already and requiring absolute perfection from them would be too much for me. Fearing bwoinks just for split second slip ups while on the job is not something I'm willing to put up with and if this kind of thing is the norm then I could see why some players stay away from the role.

[Karmasakakiki]

Your ckey (Byond username): Karmakakakiki
Your Discord name (if applicable):

Involvment in incident: Had a meeting with the "Queen of Terrors"

Agreement/disagreement with described events: When the round started, there was a massive pink spider that appeared in xenobiology. My co-worker at the time decided to take this massive pink fluffy spider and show it off to the entire crew on the station. This was a friendly spider that wasn't bothering anybody and went around acting like a pet. In fact, the head of securities pet is a spider. The fluffy spider was announced on centcom, I can agree with that, but, later on when another spider began appearing, a black spider, it was clear this was played by a player and wasn't necessarily behaving as an enemy of the corporation. Nowhere in space law does it say that spiders specifically are enemies of the corporation. In fact it can't say that because of the fact the head of securities pet is a spider. This same black spider which was also clearly friendly and sentience potion didn't work on it because it was sentient already, placed eggs in xeno. A security officer came into xeno, shot the eggs, noticed me, ignored me, and walked off. That security officer wasn't alone, there was two of them and the one that went into xeno was a vox.

 

Here is what happened in your situation. You chose to play security officer and shoot someone who wasn't an antagonist merely to shoot a friendly spider. Now your first argument you'll say," But how do I know the spider is friendly?". This is debunked by the fact that a crew member isn't getting attacked by the spider. Another thing is a maneuver you made called "Negligence". This is when you knowingly make a choice that could potentially hurt a friendly and it does. You shot a crew member just to shoot a spider. The entire purpose of killing the spider was to protect the crew, who you are willing to kill just to get rid of. Even soldiers in real life battles don't just open fire on a civilian because they suspect they could be terrorist, mostly because that creates more terrorist and waste more of your own resources. War isn't cheap and making a battle last longer cost money for the side that has money. You have no self discipline and legitimately are trying to defend yourself with the argument that it's unrealistic to do in a game something that people in real life would do, aside from the whole giant spider thing, which goes back to my story about the head of securities pet spider. Although I can't necessarily say how much I actually feel you're wrong, I can say that you're wrong for killing people merely off the suspicion that they're bad guys. Even in games like trouble in terrorist town, that is a punishable offence.

[necaladun]

@Karmasakakiki we merely wish to know whether the described events are accurate. It is NOT your job to interpret the rules or attack the person in question. 

 

[Pennwick]

Due to the holiday I'll be unavailable to answer questions on the forum from today to the 27th. If you need more information from me I may be reachable on discord but my availability will still be spotty. Have a good holiday.

[necaladun]

Hurrah for holiday seasons and heatwaves.

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BrandonSacawv/>Pennwick: Hi, why did you shoot the vox in janitorial closet?

Pennwick>BrandonSacawv: Because it was protecting the queen terror.

BrandonSacawv->Pennwick: Did he pose a direct threat to you with is bare hands?

Pennwick->BrandonSacawv: I primarily focused on the terror. Things were very hectic and it was putting itself in the way.

BrandonSacawv/Pennwick: Really? He posed a threat to your lethally armed and armored mech with his bare hands? How?

Pennwick/BrandonSacawv: Okay. I may have fired a little bit wildly in my attempt to hit the spider. I also assumed that the vox would fight back. As soon as the spider fled I focued on persuing.

BrandonSacawv/>Pennwick/ I was watching. It seemed like you were trying to shoot him, not the spider, as you shot him multiple times. He should have been arrested and charged appropriately. Don't do it again.

Pennwick/->BrandonSacawv: Understood. I tried to get non-lethal options on this thing but its been busy.

 

Logs of conversation as per request/because I needed to see them to.

This seems a quite reasonable request to me - I don't see any need to kill the Vox. A security officer is permitted to use lethal force under a variety of circumstances - KoS orders, sufficient threat, etc - however I don't see this requiring their death. Considering the overall situation, there was no need to use attempt to kill them. 

Had they been a threat to you (attack the durand with something that can hurt it), then absolutely.  If they were getting in the way of your shots at the queen, then that's really their own fault. A warning shot or two at the Vox really would be fine in this full context, although in the general sense, you shouldn't be using a laser cannon as a warning. I'd happily say shadowlings near ascension and a queen terror spider however falls out of the "standard" part of SoP. 

I agree with Brandon's general point here - you should be trying to arrest and charge people if at all possible, and avoid the use of lethals. Field executions should be reserved for only the most dangerous situations, KoS, etc. However, this was a clusterfuck to say the least, looking over the full situations context (Which included a shadowling just to the south of the janitors closet), the Queen previously being somewhat friendly pink fluffy spider, etc. 

Speaking to the controller of the Queen, however, showed there was a lot of context everyone was missing here. As long as you weren't trying to actively kill the Vox - which I don't think you were - then I see no real issues. It's hard to tell context from adminlogs, and your responses didn't explain a huge amount (Which is fair enough, considering you were pretty damn busy).

To conclude, I agree with Brandons general point, however given the specific context of the situation, I don't think  it was required. This was no fault of your own or Brandon's, and was a complex clusterfucky situation. I'll have the notes edited to reflect this.

If you wish to add more, please let me know - no rush, I know you're busy as hell right now. If you think that's fine, also please let me know, and I'll mark this as resolved.

 

 

 

[Pennwick]

Thank you for the reply. My intention wasn't to get my note changed though that is a nice bonus. My intention was to provide feedback and kind of give my two cents on the standards security is held to.

Security is stressful. You got Antags ready to kill you the moment you turn the corner in maint with their abundance of powerful abilities just because you're a security officer. You're holding yourself to a high standard because the rules say you should. If you have admins breathing down your neck in tense clusterfuck situations it pushes it even higher. Past the point for enjoyment for a lot of them. BWOINKs are very stressful for the receiving player and a combination of everything is likely to push players away from the role. Especially when they come at a point when shit has already hit the fan. I don't want to see halfway decent players pushed away from the role. There isn't a whole lot of reason to play security. You get watched extra hard, the crew (Or mostly just the vocal and grafitiing part, as well as OoC at round end) tends to hate your guts, and you're free game for any antags. Unless you REALLY like redtext its often not worth the ordeal. Which is a shame because the server could use a few decent security officers each round. Point 2 is something the server as a whole needs to work on, and Point three sucks but it makes sense that Antags would be after your gear and access.

However point one is something that should be strives for easing on the admins side. I thought the people complaining about Security Bwoinks were just bad players that really messed up. But now that its happened to me I can see how it can adversely affect a player. I did a sub-optimal thing and felt as if the jobbanhammer was floating over my head from bwoink 2 onward. Security has a rough job and it would be nice if Admins were supportive in it instead of taking a stance that leads to them getting pushed away. Maybe its me. Maybe its just I'm not cut out for it but I get the impression that a lot of decent players avoid the role because not only the Antags push against them but Crew and Admins as well.

Other than that, the issue IS resolved as much as I feel its going to be. This was mostly feedback that I wanted to apply a bit more broadly than just a DM to admin in question in case it was a bit of an endemic issue.