New Crit Discussion:

[necaladun]

Here's a thread to talk about the newcrit system, specifically opinions and subjective stuff like that.

Actual bugs should go on the github, discussion about how to best use it in the guides post.

As always, be excellent to each other, remember it's just a videogame, etc etc

Edited February 13, 2019 by Fox McCloud

[Splgrk]

So, reading the guide, is it me or is the new "lazy" medbay meta to just let everyone die and then clone them, instead of dealing with all the mess that is the several new crit levels and the complicated treatments? 

 

By that I mean, if you have someone who is almost dead, they would require surgery for brain damage, saline-glucose for shock, healing the damage and then probably more surgery for whatk illed them. Or you popl them on a stretcher in cloning, wait a minute or two for them to die, then clone them. Sure, it's a bottleneck, but at least it's manageable. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Splgrk

[TyOmaha]

Yeah the mark was really missed, cloning and the attitude of "just clone" is the issue

[Landerlow]

Seriously, the posts on the 'guide to new crit' thread should give the maintainers an idea of what to do, that is to say, NOT implement this system. Just as with the medbay nerf, it has more downvotes than upvotes, people don't want it, or want it in a different way. This PR will also not give the desired effect, it will just kill medical and chemistry even further, and will just have everyone thrown in the cloner.

What you COULD do, and what has more support but was downvoted because then still-here tigercat didn't like it, is modify or remove the current cloning system. Farie made an excellent PR, but just because some maintainers didn't like it, it was said that it would 'never feasibly pass'. 

I was mistaken, that's not the PR I meant.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Landerlow

[Splgrk]

I'd also like to say as a more general note: no one likes dying, and no one likes to stay dead. Please don't make reviving people too hard. That's just telling people they can't play for the next hour and that's often really galling. 

[Landerlow]

Another idea is, REVERT the previous medbay nerf so that the extra chemicals DO become available, and THEN use the new pain-crit system, this would still give more use to the extra chemicals in the sleepers, wouldn't make them too OP and it would still make chemistry (perhaps) make extra medicines.

[TyOmaha]

@Landerlow Which farie PR? Link?

Edited February 13, 2019 by Ty Omaha

[Landerlow]

5 minutes ago, Ty Omaha said:

@Landerlow Which farie PR? Link?

I made a mistake, that wasn't the PR I meant. I'll try to find the one I meant.

[Landerlow]

@Ty Omaha It was YOUR PR I thought Farie had made. And I see now it has more down- than upvotes, though I still think *that* should be looked towards more.

[Dinarzad]

I'm going to echo what I said before in response to the talks about Cloning.
Cloning is not the issue, has never been the issue and will continue to not be the issue.
cloning exists on TG, on Bay and Goon, it exists in almost every single codebase out there, but you think, for some reason, it's magically a problem on this one single codebase.

Cloning has clear and obvious downsides. That being, it is easily overwhelmed and tampered with. It works on one person at a time, when it was the only method of revival it very easily formed a queue.  The problem is that over the years we've added more and more alternatives to cloning, so those downsides are now null. You can Defib most people, clone them when that fails or if it's too inconvenient and SR things that can't be cloned at all, or just if you want a challenge mode, I guess.  The downsides of cloning were predicated on it being the primary source of revival, the more alternative methods of unkilling someone you make, the more you make cloning into a tool that can be used selectively when convenient, which is WHY so many doctors take the 'just clone them' mindset these days. Because these days it's almost always not in use so it's a massive time saver.
When you had conga lines of corpses in waiting, it was a lot more imperative to keep someone from dying at all, lest they be potentially dead for several minutes before their turn came up.

Times have changed. Something has to change to match it. Either Cloning needs a TOTAL overhaul, a complete remake, which in a personal opinion would be absolutely silly, given NO OTHER MAJOR CODEBASE agrees with that idea. (That sorta tells me this is a personal problem and not a problem with the mechanic as it remains, to this day, a baseline feature in all the major codebases. If Goon, TG and Bay can all agree on something, despite how disparate they all are, that carries some major weight.)
OR.
The other forms of revival need to be looked at, mostly the defib units. SR could do with a recipe tweak, but it's niche in being primarily targeted at Vox/Slimes is fine pretty much as is.
Defib units should not be able to revive a person who died ages ago, that's not how they work. They jump start a heart that has stopped within a very short time frame, they do not magically make a long cold body start living again. The body is already dead, the brain has died from lack of oxygen.  No amount of electrical impulses will change that the brain has suffocated.

Cloning might be easy if you don't attempt anything like Hypercloning, but it's straight forward and has clear downsides. A new doctor can pick up the role and, if nothing else, understand cloning. That's not a bad thing, not everyone in medical is gonna be a 16 year Space 'Nam veteran. The basics of the department should probably be relatively easy to grasp in short order.
 You can whack at it if you really, really want to, but I am telling you now, the more tedious and obnoxious you make death on the doctors themselves, the more you're gonna see people give up half way through when they get tired of handling it, especially in crisis situations where people are dying constantly. It's gonna get real fun real fast having to deal with hyper lethal war ops or blobs when you're gonna be dead for the next 5 minutes, along with a hefty chunk of crew/the entire sec team, as you're rebuilt like the bionic man, just so you can do it again. 

As for the PR feedback itself:

I don't think this fits Paradise. Goon crit is a system that is predicated on everyone being human, because on goon there's no alien races like we have and are known for. The fact we have to make snowflake exceptions to it so that it won't utterly break the system is a telling point of that.
I feel that we need to pick ONE system overhaul an focus on that.  We can't do both an SR/Revivability overhaul and a crit overhaul at the same time, that's too many major systems changes at once. If one of these gets merged, the other definitely shouldn't until we see how things shake up.

[Regular Joe]

1 hour ago, Dinarzad said:

I'm going to echo what I said before in response to the talks about Cloning.
Cloning is not the issue, has never been the issue and will continue to not be the issue.

- - Times have changed. Something has to change to match it. Either Cloning needs a TOTAL overhaul, a complete remake, which in a personal opinion would be absolutely silly, given NO OTHER MAJOR CODEBASE agrees with that idea. That sorta tells me this is a personal problem and not a problem with the mechanic as it remains, to this day, a baseline feature in all the major codebases. If Goon, TG and Bay can all agree on something, despite how disparate they all are, that carries some major weight.

-OR.
The other forms of revival need to be looked at, mostly the defib units--

I wrote write back at the newcrit guide topic and the previous cloning-revivability topic some comments on the matter,  with having my major argument in the side of "cloning pod bad."

Reading this, liked to explicate my position as a view of one who does not have long an experience on ss13, and of one who solely knows the Paracode version of the game. So in eyes of such a player cloning seems an issue concering the cloning mechanics, not a predominant bias against changes to the other-way, which is to alter defib and-or SR. Yeah, and one who does code alteration does it by their vision, and after it's done and being test fired people feedback it, this is just the way it happens, the process in overall. So I'd say there should not be arguing about biases at the staff side, aswell, it would feel kinda salty. Video game etc etc., you know it. We nerds like the game quite a lot, though, honk.

Talking about the possible options on altering the revivability, I think I read from the comments that there is somewhat consensus. Cloning remake, or then defib/SR alteration. The PR goes to alter defibs.

Since I've learned the gameplay from the current (previous) state of paracode, with those multiple ways to rise a person from the grave, the way this PR alters it now feels like cutting possible tricks off without giving any new ones to try (to work around a dead person - the crit system in itself seem neat and something what atleast I'd like to see, to get some specific use for the variety of chems, and that way the PR does so add well to the doctoring). Echoing what Positronic Repositry wrote on the guide thread. And as the cloning is left untouched, straightforward process as it has been, it feels also like a balance problem, as addressed before.

So conclusions. The previous situation was that reviving is kind of easy. But there was a variety and a balance, in the eyes of a medbay player.

If we altered defibs the way this PR does now, it makes cloning too easy, it is a balance issue. Also, if we then altered cloning to be more consuming a task, reviving in overall would be - too hard, too narrow possibility to get revived, even if rather balanced at the doctor-side, since if the newcrit braindeath happens there is just one way to be revived, altered cloning (or SR). Ways to work around? Some quick thoughts: retain the newcrit, but buff defibs so that they could revive dead again - if certain conditions are met, namely, if patient's brain damage, which was the cause of the death, is treated inside certain window of time. Like, three to five minutes. In the previous system, reviving was already prevented if brain was damaged enough... or was it just with slimecores? About cloning, it is cloning and I'd like to see it reworked due it is that straightforward. But if there was an another way to deal with the dead in the newcrit system, than just cloning, it could wait (again echoing Positronic Repositry).

Got to get more into medbay, interesting things overall.

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Regular Joe

[TheMaskedReader]

Really, I don't know what to say that I haven't already said on the github and other thread. I'm mostly posting just to watch the thread, because I'm a dum dum who can't figure out how to do that without replying.

[EvadableMoxie]

I agree completely, cloning isn't a problem at all. Doctors just need to get better at using ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS when it gets overrun in extreme emergencies (the only time it ever will be overrun).  I'm tired of all these baldy doctors who think the only thing they can do is clone, when we have so many viable and robust ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS available.

Let me all tell you a story about how it's really done.

Let's say it's terror spiders or something and cloning is overwhelmed and bodies are piling up.  As an industrious doctor who knows his shit I say "Ah! The cloner is overwhelmed! It's finally my time to shine as a medical doctor! I will not just piling bodies at the cloner, I will use the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS to get everyone alive in no time and being a fucking MEDICAL HERO.

Okay.  So first I sift through the dead bodies.  By now, most of them are ghosting.  Some have respawned as terror spiders.  Some have logged off.  So I systematically drag them one by one to the morgue tray until I find purple lights.  Ah! they're still logged in.  I don't know if they want to come back to life, but hey this one has promise!  So I SR them, and nothing happens, because they aren't in their body.  So, I wait a bit and SR again.  Still nothing.  That's two SR pills down.  Oh well. I move onto the next. Surely someone in this giant pile of corpses wants to come back and I'm going to be a MEDICAL HERO when I show off my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

So finally I find one that comes back.  By now I've used up 6 SR pills, but hey, I got one! I rush them to Cryo and... huh, already dead.  Try to defib.  Uh oh.  Heart arythamwasit?  Oh, their heart is dead.  Well, I'll just ask the friendly and responsive genetics department for a humanized monkey, since that's their job and surely my peers are as dedicated to the medical profession as I am.  Oh, there's just one geneticist and he hasn't moved in the past 45 minutes.  Well, I guess it's time to go hunt down tools and break into genetics.  Okay, whew, someone else already broke into cargo, so I can get a multitool easily.  I just had to dodge a few spiders, no big deal.  Now, just a detour to learn the wires, shocking myself in the process but no problem, I got meds4dayz.  Okay, hack into genetics, disassemble the window, grab a monkey cube box.  Now just put it into the empty genetics scanner, mess with the last block, and aha a humanized monkey! Now, I could have taken the heart from it as a normal monkey but I know I'm going to have to replace the limbs, so might as well humanize it now while I'm already broken in.  Okay, I have what I need.  It's time to practice ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

As soon as I find the body of my patient. I swear he was here just a minute ago... Well, let's go searching morgue trays. I sure hope he hasn't just logged out or respawned as a terror spider in the meantime.  Oh lucky me, I found them and the tray is still purple.  Okay, great, time do my thing!  As soon as an OR opens up.  I need to remove the heart and replace it, but both ORs are taken, because of course they are, it's a terror spider attack.  So, I wait. and I wait.  There's no formal queue here, and the living people are already screaming about the wait, I really can't bump them out to do surgery on a corpse. After awhile, a tiny hole opens up and I slip in and get started.  The surgeon who was in the OR is now swearing at me for 'stealing their OR' and screaming to the CMO to demote me.  Two patients in the waiting area with broken bones are swearing at me for treating a corpse when they're alive. The surgeon is now back trying to chain disarm me.  We have an impromptu doctoral deathmatch for dominance of the OR, and the space gods favor me, and I now control the OR. Of course. I'm a MEDICAL HERO.  Surely, when they see the power of my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS, they'll all see the folly of questioning me.  One of the living patients is now on the floor in critical with spiderlings pouring from them.

Okay, take old heart out, put new heart in, defib... Oh right. It's been like 20 minutes now, way beyond defib range.  But that's fine, more SR! Oh boy, the heart didn't die this time!  Cryo them up, go back to the OR.. oh, it's taken again.  Well, I'll just keep them in cryo until it opens up.  Of course, since it's terrors and we have a bunch of critical people coming in, the other doctors aren't happy about me keeping a cryotube constantly occupied, and the Cryox is draining pretty fast, but that's just because they're incompetent baldies that don't know about ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

Finally get back into an OR.  Patient dies 3 times on the table, but I just keep defibbing to reset and eventually I have all the septic limbs removed, I've repaired their chest and skull, both IBs, and replaced their missing blood.  The patient has no legs, and I can't replace them because terror spiders have taken over genetics and someone stole my humanized monkey.  But, my patient is alive.  I look down at him on the roller bed as I drag him to the shuttle which has now arrived because by now it's the end of the round.  I tell him he has been saved by a MEDICAL HERO using the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

He asks me why I didn't just clone him. Urgh. I calmly explain to the half a person on the roller bed that cloning has numerous drawbacks.  It can be overwhelmed, or tampered with! Yes, what we just went through was a much better option, and I'm sure, any day now, the rest of my fellow doctors will come to see that and start playing medical doctor the way I do.  With the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

I don't get karma.

 

tl;dr:

Cloning is fine, it just needs to get overrun so Doctors will use ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS which are completely viable in the emergency situations that would lead to the cloner being overrun in the first place.

SR is OP, it needs to take at least 10u to revive someone and the recipe should require a ground up chain of command.

Spaceproof races are OP, nerf slime people.

Death is trivial.

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Regular Joe]

Concerning alternative revival methods, which of them we actually have at hand, after newcrit? The amount of recent medbay tweaks causes some confusion. SR on clonables or not? And since defibs don't revive, isn't it just cloning (or SR) right now? (Or am I balding here...)

Would completely like newcrit if there was another way than cloning (SR - usable with clonables or not?); I might suggest that altering cloning could atleast change the atmosphere that Evadable's post describes in the mechanical way, whether that was otherwise reasonable, well, on second thought not that sure. But the alternative methods... there should be more, right? 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Regular Joe

[EvadableMoxie]

31 minutes ago, Regular Joe said:

Would completely like newcrit if there was another way than cloning (SR - usable with clonables or not?); I might suggest that altering cloning could atleast change the atmosphere that Evadable's post describes in the mechanical way, whether that was otherwise reasonable, well, on second thought not that sure. But the alternative methods... there should be more, right? 

In the new system there will only be cloning and SR, since defibs don't revive, and you need to defib to do a brain transplant.  I suppose you could borg someone, if that counts as revival. But yup, that's it.

And keep in mind, SRing someone will be even harder than it is now, as you'll have to deal with the new critical system, plus any future nerfs to SR.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Mitchs98]

I'm unsure if I should post my already clearly stated opinion on the guide. So. I'm just going to link the guide thread like the lazy person I am..

 

[Triiodine]

The idea to move away from the more common TG medical of “Fuck they died, cloning time” was and is a noble move. Except everything done has done the complete opposite. I am genuinely impressed at the absolute ineptitude displayed in understanding of the game systems and how they interact with one another in regards to player culture.

If I'm not mistaken part of these updates have also been echoed to move the codebase further towards MRP. While yes, one can use mechanics to inform roleplay, roleplay is always secondary to mechanical systems. One falls into the fallacy of Dungeons and Dragons, wherein you have persons that play the game to smash and kill things with big dice rolls, while the few others at the table wish to roleplay and speak to the NPCs primarily. When the game systems are built around mechanical interaction (The game doesn't prompt you a moral question before you slam a toolbox into your co-worker, it just encourages you with screaming), roleplay becomes secondary to the moment to moment systems. This is further exacerbated by the fact that this is a video game. A video game that inherits most of it's tonal themes in regards to gamemodes from social games like Mafia, Werewolf, Town of Salem, Trouble in Terrorist Town, and others.

The list goes on, but primarily, when players understand this mindset that x is not with y, and it's their job (specifically as a medical player) to prevent x from eliminating y through their practice alone, you'll see a trend towards the stereotypical silent super doctor who will wordless slam you onto the operating table and cut your septic spleen out not expecting thanks. And you, non the wiser will wake up from surgery, and impatiently wait for them to open the door to the operating room so you can continue with your round. Exceptional roleplay, 10/10 very robust everyone. Even the Head of Security stood up and clapped.

You cannot enforce roleplay through heavy handed mechanics. Full stop. Please stop trying. Roleplay is suggested and informed via mechanics, not controlled by it. Seriously.

 

In regards to the actual mechanical changes themselves? Well personally I'm a fan of Goon crit, and more specifically I'm a big fan of CM pain mechanics, however those systems specific to their codebases and style of gameplay work very well. They fit because they were designed with their player culture and other systems in mind.

Here? Well first, you can't discount the other medical changes that have happened in respect to the critical state changes; and everyone has already said it. Medical was fine the way it was. Sure a little tedious at times, and yeah no one wants to make morphine but someone's gotta do it. But it was fine for what it was. It worked, it had interplay with other systems. It was fine.

However this reminds me more of attempts to port Lavaland, which inherently is flawed for Paradise player culture do to the culture and codebase it was designed towards (TG).

To make an analogy, you can't put a Prius Electric Engine into your 1990 Honda Civic and expect it to work.

 

Goon is a Prius and we're a 1990 Honda Civic made out of spare parts that TG and Bay left behind. What's happened here boils down to: “Cloning bad, but other revival method bad, roleplay good... cannot roleplay if dead. Fuck” By obfuscating the systems instead of actually creating complexity off of what was already present, these updates have done the exact opposite of what was intended, and instead have exacerbated the outlying issues already present and brought in a whole slew of new ones.

I guess we can all get participation medals though, this has been quite fun to talk about. I am very interested in how the player concerns are eventually addressed if at all, as right now if I'm not mistaken, no one wants this that regularly plays medical.

 

Take what I say with a grain of salt, as we all should do with everyone, as it is just an atmospherics simulator with too many layers to count. Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, be they big or small.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Triiodine

[Regular Joe]

2 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

In the new system there will only be cloning and SR, since defibs don't revive, and you need to defib to do a brain transplant.  I suppose you could borg someone, if that counts as revival. But yup, that's it.

And keep in mind, SRing someone will be even harder than it is now, as you'll have to deal with the new critical system, plus any future nerfs to SR.

 

Thanks, so I've still got the hang on this! So as a final-final word of mine on this topic, I'd totally like the system, if the defibs would revive with certain conditions met. For example surgically cured brain damage, as the brain damage worked previously - it would work neatly together with the newcrit dealing braindamage and causing heart issues. The timespan of few minutes after death would kick the required difficulty in, as reviving should be then done in OR, and thus triage is needed on reviving patients that way. Though, newcrit already gives the time as your ultimate enemy, so doubts could be said whether defib reviving should be very rough trick at all, as Splgrk wrote there previously. I'll say anyway that it should be there, in some form at least.

Alternatives, layers, they're good, yet considering whether this or that is OP sure is difficult. On the topic of mechanics... the effect of the mechanisms, when you change them, is aswell difficult to forecast, as of game is much about interaction and interaction in general is difficult to forecast. Wouldn't hence call it ineptitude, at all. Yet it is so that mechanics isn't straight path to endorse something we want. They have the strongest effect, though, but that effect is not predictable.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Regular Joe

[TheMaskedReader]

3 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I agree completely, cloning isn't a problem at all. Doctors just need to get better at using ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS when it gets overrun in extreme emergencies (the only time it ever will be overrun).  I'm tired of all these baldy doctors who think the only thing they can do is clone, when we have so many viable and robust ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS available.

Let me all tell you a story about how it's really done.

Let's say it's terror spiders or something and cloning is overwhelmed and bodies are piling up.  As an industrious doctor who knows his shit I say "Ah! The cloner is overwhelmed! It's finally my time to shine as a medical doctor! I will not just piling bodies at the cloner, I will use the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS to get everyone alive in no time and being a fucking MEDICAL HERO!

(Edited for size)

You are a hero of the populace and made me laugh until I couldn’t breathe, while still being an accurate rebuttal. Congratulations, you’re a true FORUM HERO!

Edited February 13, 2019 by TheMaskedReader
Quote was LARGE and I quoted all of it like a dum dum

[Tomite]

In reality cloning isn't an issue many regular medbay players use cloning on people who are way to far gone or have insane levels of body damage to where it is not practical, The problem with cloning is that its easy and yeah it is sure but it is a way for newer doctors to contribute because it's simple, They learn how to do simple things and then move on to using more advanced methods. I mean would you rather have new doctors playing with Sr? Or saying I am of no use here and just leaving? Because that will happen. Defibs do not need to be messed with either if you take away their ability to revive someone then you take away a method of getting them back in and playing sooner and why would you want that? For realisim? If so then why play ss13 its not realistic and it doesn't have to be. To make death have an impact? Well if someone can come back then it doesn't have impact it's a timer and nobody likes waiting on a timer much less one that is frustratingly long, Death in this game doesn't have impact because someone has to wait longer it has to have impact because of how you died or who your death affects and that requires roleplaying and not needless changes. You do not have to make it harder to treat people to add value to death in game and it's a poor argument to say you do, And oddly enough if you don't like cloning then don't let yourself be cloned. You do not have to accept being cloned its completely voluntary nobody is forcing you to be cloned. If you want to mitigate cloning then add more methods like the replica pods or sr you don't need to hamstring an entire department to do so. At the end of the day yes it is a game so why make it less fun to play and why make players pay the penalty for something they did not ask for nor want, Any other game that does something the community does not agree with gets slammed by the same community I do not see why it is not the same here.

[WingedYordle]

I would love the option to be able to crawl when crit, do you aren’t forgotten all round and able to least find help for yourself

[Warior4356]

I mostly like the new system, however, I see one glaring thing missing.

We can look at bay station for this example, they don't have cloning at all, yet people don't get removed from the round that often. Why?

They have systems in place to let the paramedic get you to medical ALIVE.

First off paramedics have  Dexalin Plus, Tramadol, Inaprovaline, bandages, and so on to try and stabilize the patient and stop further damage, if that is not an option they have stasis bags that will stop all injuries from progressing, but on bay, these are a limited resource to be jealously guarded.

I would support a system like this, if we add ways to let the paramedic get people to medbay alive, and actually stop them from taking more damage in the field without being 100% dependant on chem giving them the right drugs. Plus the drugs that would just stop further damage don't exist in our code.

[TyOmaha]

Quote

The problem is that over the years we've added more and more alternatives to cloning, so those downsides are now null.

No the problem is the downsides to cloning is easily fixed via "throw in cryo tube with mutadone and mannitol"

[EvadableMoxie]

52 minutes ago, Ty Omaha said:

No the problem is the downsides to cloning is easily fixed via "throw in cryo tube with mutadone and mannitol"

Or the downsides are non-existent once the cloner is upgraded. 

But I think saying "Cloning is the problem" and saying "Cloning's current mechanics are the problem" is functionally the same argument. I'm certainly not arguing that cloning couldn't be changed so it isn't a problem, I'm just saying as it exists now it's a problem.

[Tomite]

1 hour ago, Ty Omaha said:

No the problem is the downsides to cloning is easily fixed via "throw in cryo tube with mutadone and mannitol"

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/10773

I'm sorry but I remember the Pr you submitted with your changes to medical, One of the changes was to sr which initially gibbed any clonable species which you later changed to does nothing to them. This would make cloning basically the only way for anyone who isn't a vox or slime person to revive that was not cloning or making it in time with a defib. Your other changes also included longer cloning times removing pre scanning and auto cloning which is an upgrade that requires science to make happen. This update would only make cloning even more important and exacerbates the problems some seem to have with cloning which is a reliance on it for some medical players. You can't suggest taking away ways to revive people while also admonishing the only methods left.