New Crit Discussion:

[Warior4356]

I mean you very well can, if we add ways to save the living before they become dead, then making it harder to comeback is fine.

[TyOmaha]

@Tomite Yes because thats what was brought up as a suggestion and hasn't been updated

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, Ty Omaha said:

No the problem is the downsides to cloning is easily fixed via "throw in cryo tube with mutadone and mannitol"

Tell you what.
Let's do a test.
Do 1 day where Defibs/SR isn't available, an then you tell me how super duper fast cloning is and how it has no problems what so ever.
Especially when it gets bombed.
 

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Or the downsides are non-existent once the cloner is upgraded. 

But I think saying "Cloning is the problem" and saying "Cloning's current mechanics are the problem" is functionally the same argument. I'm certainly not arguing that cloning couldn't be changed so it isn't a problem, I'm just saying as it exists now it's a problem.

You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator.

But yeah. You're right. Everyone else is the problem. TG, Bay, Goon, every other major codebase? Fools. Foolish fools who are foolishly believing their own foolishness as they seem to all agree a mechanic works across High, Medium and Low RP spectrums. They're all just to dumb to see the way, clearly, it could in no way be the minority opinion is wrong.

Y'all are gonna do what you want anyway, feedback or otherwise, an apparently get you meme'd on if you disagree, so just like... do whatever, man. I'm done puttin' in effort, lemme know when you're done ruining the medical department though.

[EvadableMoxie]

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator.

It was satirical actually, as in an attempt to use humor to prove a point. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but it wasn't a dig at you personally.

Let me try to explain to you where I'm coming from here.

What I hope to avoid is medical doctors on Paradise becoming simply cloner operators. To that end, I want methods to actually treat people, not put them in a machine that just makes their injures irrelevant. There are two ways to do that. One way is to nerf cloning.

The other (which I personally think is the vastly superior option) is treatment methods that rival cloning.  Treatment methods skilled doctors can use to get people back alive and kicking more quickly and efficiently than cloning. So when you have newbie doctors they just throw everyone in cloning and it takes awhile, but if you have skilled and robust doctors they can use other methods to get people back alive and kicking.  Who is staffing the medbay becomes vitally important and has a major impact on outcomes for patients.

The thing is, this is exactly what people want to get rid of. The argument there is to nerf everything BUT cloning, so everyone has to use cloning. Then cloning won't be so good because there will be a backlog. By removing or nerfing everything but cloning, we actually in effect nerf cloning by creating pressure on it. If this isn't your actual argument, please correct me to what it is. That just seems to be my impression from what you and some others have said. I don't want to misrepresent you.

That argument makes sense if your perspective is solely on the overall balance of how easy or difficult it is for people to get back into the round, and you don't care at all about how fun or interesting the medical profession is.  If you do care about that, even a little, this option is disastrous. I'd also argue it's inherently flawed since the bottleneck can be bypassed by building additional cloning pods, but that's getting off topic a bit.

So, why is that option so bad in my opinion?

Before, everyone who came into medical who was dead for less than 5 minutes could be defibbed, and then you had a patient to work on and do your job as a doctor.  Now it's 2 minutes.  If the new crit system passes, everyone who comes in dead will be someone doctors cannot interact with beyond throwing them in the cloner or morgue. 

So the window of patients we actually have to do medical work on will become incredibly thin.  We'd need someone who has taken enough damage for there to be something more for us to do than a few patches, but yet not taken too much damage to die. And we need them either not in crit, or in crit but arriving in time to be saved.  Will there be patients like that? Sure.  But a whole heck of a lot less than there were when you could treat anyone who died in the past 5 minutes. The majority of 'patients' won't be people doctors can actually do anything with beyond throwing them in a cloner or morgue tray.

On other servers that might be fine.  Maybe because on Bay there is a much larger emphasis on roleplay.  Maybe lethal attacks are rarer, and when people do die, it's a lot more about the aftermath of being cloned and the necessary counseling for the mental issues that arise from it, than it is about the actual medical treatment.  And maybe it's okay on TG because TG is more about the antags and the action they provide than how each department operates in a bubble. And maybe the medical system is designed more to get people back into the round fast than it's designed to be fun and challenging for the doctors. I don't play on those servers regularly, so I don't know. 

I do know that not everything that works on other servers works here, something we agree on when it comes to this critical system.

And I do know that if the critical system goes through as is, and cloning goes through as is, doctors will largely be cloner operators with a very narrow band of actual patients who need to be treated.  That's going to be a massive blow to what was a fairly good and rewarding medical system.

That's why I'm really, really concerned with the idea of nerfing everything but cloning in order to pressure it.  I hope you can understand that, even if you can't agree with it.

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Warior4356]

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Tell you what.
Let's do a test.
Do 1 day where Defibs/SR isn't available, an then you tell me how super duper fast cloning is and how it has no problems what so ever.
Especially when it gets bombed.
 

You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator.

But yeah. You're right. Everyone else is the problem. TG, Bay, Goon, every other major codebase? Fools. Foolish fools who are foolishly believing their own foolishness as they seem to all agree a mechanic works across High, Medium and Low RP spectrums. They're all just to dumb to see the way, clearly, it could in no way be the minority opinion is wrong.

Y'all are gonna do what you want anyway, feedback or otherwise, an apparently get you meme'd on if you disagree, so just like... do whatever, man. I'm done puttin' in effort, lemme know when you're done ruining the medical department though.

2

I would like to point something out. You keep mentioning other servers for how they do medical. Yea except bay lacks cloning. death is permenant, yet because they can stabilize people, it's rare you leave the round.

[Regular Joe]

On 2/14/2019 at 6:49 AM, EvadableMoxie said:

It was satirical actually.

Just read Eco's novel "The Name of the Rose" once again, oh the irony. "I supposed that he was using that treacherous trick of speech, that the rhethorics call "irony" and which should always be let known before usage  - which he never did." Alternative revival methods, honk

Edited February 15, 2019 by Regular Joe
Removed needless saying!

[TheMaskedReader]

OK, with the new changes to the PR i need to talk again because HEYO they make things worse. No more epipens in starting survival boxes and no more omnizine in CMO’s Hypo. That’s not good changes at all. SR now relies on Chemists who are already going to be in super high demand because of all the changes having to go out and dialysis Omni from some poor fellows blood. Also, no epis makes your chances of getting to medbay/getting somebody ELSE to medbay as concerned citizen/paramed even worse. 

[Splgrk]

Wait, they took epipen from the starting boxes too? Do they just want everyone to spend all shift dead?

[necaladun]

3 minutes ago, Splgrk said:

 Do they just want everyone to spend all shift dead? 

This is going to be my last request to knock off this kind of sarcasm and passive aggression.

[Cole_Wilds]

2 hours ago, necaladun said:

This is going to be my last request to knock off this kind of sarcasm and passive aggression.

You have to give your players some credit. That other post regarding the PR merge speaks volumes to how the majority feels, yet it seems as though you simply do not care. And now here, when you're the one asking for people to discuss it, you seem to be dismissing genuine criticisms as "sarcasm and passive aggression". If I didn't know any better I'd say you were high on power and ignoring us all in favor of backers. All for the money, as it were. But I do know better, and I've seen better from all the staff on these forums. It does seem we're all on edge, as this is a contentious issue for all of us; players and staff alike.

We need to be able to break bread and have a genuine discussion on how the community feels, and what the community wants.

And don't be surprised when people get emotional about it. This game provides for some genuinely amazing experiences. So when an update may well result in more players spending whole rounds dead, it's easy to understand why people are upset.

I'm not going to say there is a perfect solution, as a perfect solution for anything is an impossibility. But one thing that can majorly improve the standings here is opening up to much more community feedback. More polls, more threads like this one, more effort to stay in touch with the player base.

[Mitchs98]

Echoing my concerns on the Github for the PR Itself....an emergency box is supposed to be an emergency box. It makes absolutely no sense for the epi-pen to be removed from any logical standpoint beyond not wanting people to have a way to potentially survive a harsh and punishing system for a few seconds. I mean, you can explain it away IC as 'budget cuts', but in reality everyone knows it was done to make newcrit unnecessarily harder if only by minor amounts. The ominizine in the hypo being removed can be worked around, I mean technically so can this...but this is a far more impactful change than this is. I don't entirely agree with removing the omnizine from it, especially with SR being so important in this new system, but if it must happen there are ways around it. And frankly I'd rather have some of those changes Fox proposed other than starting ominizine. I.E Heart attack nerfs/SR Buffs.

[necaladun]

36 minutes ago, Cole_Wilds said:

We need to be able to break bread and have a genuine discussion on how the community feels, and what the community wants.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm asking for.

Genuine discussion is not possible if people aren't able to control their emotions and discuss things in a reasonable, and adult way. Hyperbole is not useful. Neither is passive aggressive comments, snark, and sarcasm.

What "the community" wants seems to generally ignore all of "the community" members who disagree with whoever is talking about it at the time. These discussions seem dominated by a very few people, with very loud voices. Very rarely have I ever seen a poll get anywhere near the number of admins we have, let alone players in one round. To act like you have some form of "majority" is ridiculous.

If someone gets so emotional about a videogame, that they're not going to have the decency to show courtesy and be reasonable when discussing things, then I have no interest in them being part of the community. Their opinion is irrelevant. We are not going to make decisions based on how people feel, or how strongly people feel about something. Even if it was somehow shown to be a majority of however you choose to define "the community", the decision in the end will be what the maintainers and admins think is best for the server. These are the people who have guided the server over 5 years to be the place that people are this invested in. Have some faith.

If people wish to give feedback, criticism, alternative proposals, etc, then I gladly welcome that. It's incredibly helpful. @Norwest @Dinarzad and @Regular Joe are a few names I can think of who have made some excellent posts about these topics. These are great examples to look at some of the posts of, and the kind of feedback we're looking for.

We won't lower ourselves to matching sarcasm with sarcasm. If you're going to scream and shout in an emotional rage, you'll be met with silence. We won't indulge salt.

 

 

[Cole_Wilds]

I unfortunately cannot follow the logic of the sample size on the forums being inadequate. But I can think of a solution. Run a poll in-game over this three- or four-day weekend, including a link for uninformed players to be able to read up on the changes. That will certainly provide a better sample size.

[necaladun]

We're not interested in peoples general feelings or votes over a few days of a system that's a work in progress.

We want feedback and discussion about the specifics of the changes. Not a poll that indicates how people feel.

[fennofen]

2 hours ago, necaladun said:

We want feedback and discussion about the specifics of the changes. Not a poll that indicates how people feel.

To be fair, isn't how people feel about the changes part of the feedback and discussion?

[necaladun]

A yes/no poll does not give feedback beyond "I like it".

The counter argument to that is "i don't like it".

That's not a discussion.

[fennofen]

I'm not opting for a poll at all, but to seemingly dismiss feelings about the change as not being part of the discussion or feedback feels a little rash, to me.

[Landerlow]

--

Edited February 16, 2019 by Landerlow
Misread some things.

[Carbonknight666]

The change is university unpopular, so it will be implemented and the community will have 0 say. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Carbonknight666

[fennofen]

10 minutes ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The change is university unpopular, so it will be implemented and the community will have 0 say. 

AS IS TRADITION

[Mitchs98]

As with the epi pen change, I'm against the removal of the burn/brute trauma kits as well as the ointment from the emergency vendors. Everything else is alright and very much needed. But otherwise? No. It makes no sense to remove the advanced kits fullstop either in favor of 'neuro kits' that are literally mannitol pills anyone can make easily. Once again this is just going further and further from 'make death impactful' to full on nerfing medical into the ground.

I'm definitely against the idea of giving a slime a heart and making them breathe, that's the main upsides to the race really. Not having to worry about organs or breathing. Full on changing races like this to make them work with a convoluted system isn't really the way to go about it in my opinion.(Not an actual recent change, but what Fox is actually considering for whatever reason.)

Sure now the medivends have the chemicals they need to treat shock and stuff effectively, but adding that in favor of _major_ nerfs? I'd rather keep the advanced kits and have to worry about chemistry doing their job. Especially if there's no way to order more of them.

Honestly, things are just coming with bad change after bad change. If you have to constantly debuff something to make a change not entirely awful to play in, something is wrong. Especially if the debuffs pretty much counterbalance the buffs night entirely.

[EvadableMoxie]

42 minutes ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The change is university unpopular, so it will be implemented and the community will have 0 say. 

Just saying a change is unpopular isn't useful feedback.  You won't convince anyone it's true just by insisting it is. Even if you did, saying a change is unpopular isn't necessarily an argument that it shouldn't happen. 

I would recommend giving your thoughts about why the changes are bad.  Even if you're just saying "I agree with this person." 

[Dinarzad]

https://i.imgur.com/KnNrnzL.png

The above is the image Fox put up on the PR in question of his medivend changes. I felt it was worth copying over here for people that may not check the git themselves all that much, and because a few things I wanna note about the tweaks made, an it's easier to have al ink here for reference then to ask people to go to the PR.

Healing/Burn patches: Nice to have, though with the sleepers giving saline-glucose and the medical vendor giving saline-glucose, unsure how needed it is. But still nice. *thumbs up
Diphenhydramine Bottle: Nice to have but not wholly sure how necessary it is, I personally don't see Histamine come up that much, but I know Fox mentioned that some chemicals were gonna be a lot more scary in the new system, like Sarin. So perhaps Histamine is one of those, but just putting it out there I don't run into it much.
Salicylic Acid Bottle: Nice to have.
Potassium Iodide Bottle: Not sure Radiation is a common enough occurance to need to be default in the medi-vend, but it's a brain dead chem recipe as it is an a chemist can make one in a couple seconds, so I suppose just having it by default won't change much.
Saline-Glucose bottle:  Not sure if needed, given sleepers produce the stuff. Though, I guess since it can be used to treat the first stages of shock, having a few bottles to carry around won't be remiss. Not sure if we need 5 though, 3 per medi-vend should be plenty given we have a LOT of medivends.
Atropine Bottle: Good to have in case there's no chem, such as low-pop rounds.
Oculine Bottle: Same as Atropine, good to have in case a total lack of chemistry, given Sleepers no longer produce the stuff. Small enough in quantity you could run out though, which will still give Chem incentive to make some, just nothing they need to rush out.
Calomel Pill: Given Fox's claim that chems can be a lot scarier in this new system, probably worth having. Though I for see a lot of toxin deaths the first few weeks after being merged (Calomel will rapidly fuck your day if over 20 HP)
Salbutomal pills: Not sure if needed because of sleepers, could just as easily put in some oxy-dep first aid kids into medical storage. Might lighten the load on them edivend, as the list of things it has is now pretty big.
Mannitol Pills: Probably necessary given Brain damage during critical condition is now a thing and is what dictates death.
Mutadone pills: I don't think this is necessary to have on hand in the medical vendor, unless it plays a new role in the system that I have overlooked somewhere.

Now to address some of the other changes:

Quote

advanced medkit replaeced with neurological damage kit; individuals who started with advanced medkit now start with a regular medkit, instead

If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary.
 

Quote

As this is now reagent-medbay, Fix O Vein now does the repair work for internal organs (as opposed to a bruise pack).

No real opinion on this. Having more use to Fix-O-Vein is nice, and it's something you can't run out of (I don't think it took a use of a trauma kit to heal an organ though.)  Not really any major medical changes here though, just swapping one tool for another. Could make ghetto surgery harder, as you could Trauma Kits here an there in maint.
 

Quote

 

Ideally plasmamen, slime people, and Diona will utilize this new system (I think IPCs are different enough they an be justified being different).

This would mean that Plasmamen lose their `NO_BLOOD` trait though (plasma for blood, I guess?), and it would mean that Slime people will have to have a heart (IMO, they should already, as they have blood), and breathe.

Diona would just lose their `NO_BREATHE` ability and acquire lungs, but I don't think that's a big deal; the entire species needs a rework, to be honest.

The trouble with this is giving them a "compensating differential", so to speak.

I probably wont' worry to much about that for _this_ PR.

 

This is a little more where I have problems.  Plasmemes have precious little going for them as it is (Aside a dope as fuck style.) and slimes having no organs and no breathing is a big deal. They were originally supposed to not have bones either, an that's already been compromised on, I'd really prefer not pulling back even more on that. Their blood is water, not because they have 'blood' like a circulatory system, but because they're made of slime, a gelatinous liquid substance. The 'skin' is just like a membrane holding the stuff inside. (And also for mechanical reasons.)

A grander scale rework of Diona is probably in the cards, yes, but until then, removing their no breathe ability I'm sketchy on, not without also pulling back on how much slowdown they suffer at least. That seems like sometihng that should happen WITH a diona rework, and not in this particular system overhaul, since there's grander balance concerns to be had.

Ultiamtely though, this stumbling point here is probably why this crit system is going to have a lot of issues. It's a goon-based system, and on Goon humans are the only species you can reliably play as.  This system has a lot of depth, could be very nice IF we were an all-human kind of server, but we're not. And the only solutions are to either snowflake the other species real hard to make it work/ignore the system; to dramatically alter those species just to fit this system in, and like Fox said, conjure up compensating buffs/changes, which isn't always easy; or to leave both of them alone.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Dinarzad

[Mitchs98]

44 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

Healing/Burn patches: Nice to have, though with the sleepers giving saline-glucose and the medical vendor giving saline-glucose, unsure how needed it is. But still nice. *thumbs up

Not really nice to have if it means advanced kits are being phased out entirely. Compared to them they're not that useful whatsoever. I don't even really understand why the advanced kits were phased out in fair of 'Neurological Kits' that are just some pills of mannitol. Especially if it's being added to the medivend itself. Removing the kits is a very severe nerf to medbay, especially on low pop rounds without a chemist/rounds without a chemist/rounds without a decent chemist. Having to rely on chemistry isn't a bad thing to a degree. Having to rely on it to the point that if you don't have someone do it constantly you won't have any reliable way to heal damage? Not at all.

 

Not to mention the points brought up on karma races and Diona.

[Dinarzad]

15 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

Not really nice to have if it means advanced kits are being phased out entirely. Compared to them they're not that useful whatsoever. I don't even really understand why the advanced kits were phased out in fair of 'Neurological Kits' that are just some pills of mannitol.

I agree.
That's why my response on the neuro kits was
"If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary."
If Medical vendors already have mannitol pills in them, I am unsure why those kits are necessary.