New Crit Discussion:

[Fox McCloud]

40 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

I agree.
That's why my response on the neuro kits was
"If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary."
If Medical vendors already have mannitol pills in them, I am unsure why those kits are necessary.

I'm not commenting much because my PR is still WIP,  so basing argument or interpretations on things until the full picture comes into view isn't particularly useful for me. I'd like to point out, though, the quoted isn't a terribly good argument. Charcoal, salbutamol, salicylic, burn patches, brute patches, and health analyzers are all in the vendors too. Likewise, chemistry can make all these things too...some of them pretty easily (well, not health analyzers, but you get my point).

The neurological kits are there as a "backup" and alternative source. Yes, chemistry can make those things, yes the vendor has them, but sometimes, during emergencies, there's not time to make more, or the vendors are damaged/inaccessible. In those circumstances, having a backup via cargo is important. Mannitol is pretty critical to this new system.

The advanced kits weren't phased out "in favor" of neurological kits. They were just phased out. I re-used their sprite+path for something completely different then replaced all existing advanced kits with regular med kits (except where they are intentionally supposed to be the new neurological kit).

[Mitchs98]

What did you re-use them for then? Why were they even removed? They were the only means of reliably treating brute and burn damage if chemistry was entirely inept. Now they've been replaced with single use patches that really do not heal all that much whatsoever. It'll now be even harder, if not impossible, to effectively treat someone heavily damaged. Especially Vox or Slime People. Unless of course the intention was to make them harder to revive while also making it harder to treat others, since you and others are in favor of making them harder/impossible to revive outside of transplanting? I'm not accusing or anything like that, I'm genuinely asking if that was one of the key reasons the kits were removed.

[Regular Joe]

On 2/14/2019 at 3:20 AM, Warior4356 said:

I mean you very well can, if we add ways to save the living before they become dead, then making it harder to comeback is fine.

Came to think about it, previously I considered the aspects of newcrit revivability changes if we’d played the medbay roughly the same way as before. Somebody already mentioned that paramedic would be more a paramedic than a body taxi. So with newcrit it becomes a priority to try stabilize patients before they get in the bay. (Finally I got it). In a stable situation it would be the job of the paramedic. During a mass casualty event it would be CMO’s job to organize flying first-aid or static first-aid sites, like initiative doctors already do during blob rounds, in order to prevent massive queues to the cloning.

That would be a positive add to the medbay gameplay, since it actually requires some teamwork. Immersion thing aswell. Irl we do it in the military, like, the injured are evacuated first to a platoon evac point, then to a level 1 firstaid, then level 2 field hospital and in each level the triage and stabilization is done, until the patient is at a facility that can fully treat him. So, for instance a blobround, blobfighters evacuate the wounded to the first-aid. There a required number of doctors treat them  enough for waiting to surgery or so happen at medbay. Paramedic runs the taxi between bay and first-aid, and the rest medbay surges and clones/sr’s them who end up there. Or a nukie round, part doctors to field evacuating the injured to a safe point for quick stabilization, and then part doctors at the bay do the further treatment.

Question is, how much time does the newcrit permit for preventing the patients to die, so that there is enough time for the patients to get receiving stabilization from the paramedic or some first-aid point. Concerning, if somebody gets hurt, are they, in the first place, possible to be saved at all (ie.when they get hurt, do they get insta- or very quickly killed). If not, the cloner will be queued even if we had an effort to that way prevent it, and the downsides of that are already said. Test time it is, going to try to play around cmo’ing.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Regular Joe

[Carbonknight666]

7 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Just saying a change is unpopular isn't useful feedback.  You won't convince anyone it's true just by insisting it is. Even if you did, saying a change is unpopular isn't necessarily an argument that it shouldn't happen. 

I would recommend giving your thoughts about why the changes are bad.  Even if you're just saying "I agree with this person." 

That's the thing. Looking at the posts on the forum, discussions on the discord, people keep posting in detail why some of the changes are pointless or dumb and the staff keeps ignoring it or branding legitimate criticism as sarcasm. 

A lot of the changes (but not all mind you) are pointless and will make medbay a clone-o-matic with little reason to do anything but clone people for every issue. Trying to make stabilizing people more important and making the paramedic a medic are good additions, but are implimented poorly.

However my biggest concern is being unable to revive people outside advanced chemicals that wont be made most rounds meaning a lot of people will spend a lot of time dead. In actual medicine there are ways to mechanically revive people. For example of an idea, If a stimulant like epinephrine was available round start there would be a way to revive people who just died by giving them a shot of epinephrine and doing chest compressions (you know like reality) it won't heal any of their damage but will make reviving freshly dead people viable without the defibrillator. Defibs not starting hearts I get because that's unrealistic so some of the changes are good. If you want to be extreme and add another more sever way to revive people you can do cardiac massage to start a heart but that requires opening the chest. Not all the changes are bad but over all the whole concept needs to be re worked using community feedback to help. I do game development and I will listen to player feedback to see what needs to be fixed added or removed per update. You do not need to do polls to understand your player base, just look at the over all consensus. I'm 1 person and I can do it with no help, I'm sure Paradise can do it too. 

The takeaway is in my opinion removing the defibrillator as a revival tool without replacing it with something equivalent is a bad idea. If hospitals where unable to revive people who crash without the usage of hard to get medication they would be usless.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Carbonknight666

[Calecute]

It seems the problems people have with the PR is that making treatment more complex makes cloning a better alternative to treatment, and removing the defib as a revival option makes cloning more prevalent. 

But I'm not completely convinced that's true. The thing is, by putting a lot of states between taking lots of damage and dying I think the new system may extend the time people spend in crit. It may be that the new system leads to more people hitting medbay alive instead of dead, and injecting them with saline or whatever or defibing them, and putting them in cryo or applying patches seems quicker than cloning.

[Calecute]

Duplicated

Edited February 17, 2019 by Calecute

[Regular Joe]

46 minutes ago, Calecute said:

It seems the problems people have with the PR is that making treatment more complex makes cloning a better alternative to treatment, and removing the defib as a revival option makes cloning more prevalent. 

But I'm not completely convinced that's true. The thing is, by putting a lot of states between taking lots of damage and dying I think the new system may extend the time people spend in crit. It may be that the new system leads to more people hitting medbay alive instead of dead, and injecting them with saline or whatever or defibing them, and putting them in cryo or applying patches seems quicker than cloning.

Yeah, if that would be realistic-enough that they hit medbay alive (or, as I thought around on my previous, if it became a tactic of playing medbay to more attention on first-aid at field), the way it alters doctoring would be reasonable. The newcrit as described does not have a certain dying treshold, but the damage raises the chance to fall into the process of dying after 0hp, which, in turn, will end up to death (by death of brain/heart) in a chance which will rise as the damage rises, specifically the o2 damage. Actually very reasonable, since the process of crit would be less linear for the both sides there, the medbay and the patients.

I didn't realize this side of the idea in the first place. So I was bit like you stated it, worrying about the defibs because of knowing the present: that lots of people end up to the medbay dead, so if defibs were not reviving there is just cloning. If they, due newcrit, arrive (or are stabilized at field by paramedic or by some field first-aid point) to the medbay more alive than dead, that concern is not so great at all.

But that is so if we had a reasonable chance to get the injured into treatment alive (and here goes the previously said no clonepod-operator doctors -notes). That might be hard to predict.

Still I would anyway concern on the fact that some tricks, like brain/heart transplanting, are, of course, not available if the defib won't revive. And talk about the vox/slime SR-surgeries which are bit harder now aswell. So I'd hope them being capable of reviving, with certain conditions met. Which conditions, are up for balance - in the other end, making doctors to prefer treating without relying on the quick revival option, in the another end, not making the revival a certain pain in ass, since some of its frequent uses are already such pains, namely the vox/slime SR. Or make it a completely separate tool. Quick throws, once again.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Regular Joe

[Carbonknight666]

The new crit system has good aspects, I just think a revival method should be available if someone dies as you're working on them or if they die right before the paramedic arrives.

The defibrillator reviving people with the click of a button was kind of dumb, but having no quick revival options is sketchy and un realistic.

Again if anyone is taking suggestions I still think if someone dies they should be able to be revived by getting an epinephrine shot and chest compressions. Make it so it only works if they have been dead for no more than 1 or 2 minutes so it's not OP. Or have it the longer they are dead the more brain damage they accumulate until they can't be revived at all. I also like the idea of adding cardiac massage so if someone dies during emergency surgery you can start their heart manually but that's probably too specific.

Epinephrine and chest compressions to revive is my suggestion. It's more involved than the defibrillator, would add to paramedic, is more realistic, would make triage more flexible during massive injury situations. As a small addition, giving the paramedic epinephrine at round start in this system would be good.

Also I didn't realize until now but as said above, without the defibrillator heart, head and brain transplants can't be done. That's something to keep in mind.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Carbonknight666

[EvadableMoxie]

27 minutes ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The new crit system has good aspects, I just think a revival method should be available if someone dies as you're working on them or if they die right before the paramedic arrives.

The lack of revival methods is kind of baked into the new crit system.  If it's easy to revive someone who dies on you while in crit, then them being in crit loses it's weight. That's kind of why revival methods and the new system don't really mesh well... which in turns leads to the 'shove everyone dead in the cloner' problem because once they're dead a doctor can longer interact with them in any other way. That's one of the reasons I no longer support it, after liking it initially. 

I feel like we have this really nice square peg we're trying to shove into a round hole, and since it doesn't fit we're just taking a saw to the hole until it does, rather than simply using a round peg.

Also, it is still possible to do heart transplants, but you'll need to either be really quick or use Corazone. 

 

[Mitchs98]

47 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

The lack of revival methods is kind of baked into the new crit system.  If it's easy to revive someone who dies on you while in crit, then them being in crit loses it's weight. That's kind of why revival methods and the new system don't really mesh well... which in turns leads to the 'shove everyone dead in the cloner' problem because once they're dead a doctor can longer interact with them in any other way. That's one of the reasons I no longer support it, after liking it initially. 

I feel like we have this really nice square peg we're trying to shove into a round hole, and since it doesn't fit we're just taking a saw to the hole until it does, rather than simply using a round peg.

Also, it is still possible to do heart transplants, but you'll need to either be really quick or use Corazone. 

 

The Corazone recipe was removed.

1 hour ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The new crit system has good aspects, I just think a revival method should be available if someone dies as you're working on them or if they die right before the paramedic arrives.

The defibrillator reviving people with the click of a button was kind of dumb, but having no quick revival options is sketchy and un realistic.

Again if anyone is taking suggestions I still think if someone dies they should be able to be revived by getting an epinephrine shot and chest compressions. Make it so it only works if they have been dead for no more than 1 or 2 minutes so it's not OP. Or have it the longer they are dead the more brain damage they accumulate until they can't be revived at all. I also like the idea of adding cardiac massage so if someone dies during emergency surgery you can start their heart manually but that's probably too specific.

Epinephrine and chest compressions to revive is my suggestion. It's more involved than the defibrillator, would add to paramedic, is more realistic, would make triage more flexible during massive injury situations. As a small addition, giving the paramedic epinephrine at round start in this system would be good.

Also I didn't realize until now but as said above, without the defibrillator heart, head and brain transplants can't be done. That's something to keep in mind.

I'd be in favor of chest compressions if it didn't give Fox even more of a reason to give every species a heart and/or blood even if it makes no sense for them to have it. Actually sounds pretty neat.

[EvadableMoxie]

1 minute ago, Mitchs98 said:

The Corazone recipe was removed.

I stand corrected. Sigh... more hacking away at the hole to make the peg fit. 

[Mitchs98]

Just now, EvadableMoxie said:

I stand corrected. Sigh... more hacking away at the hole to make the peg fit. 

Indeed. Indeed it is.

[Calecute]

The loss of brain transplants is trully sad. But I'm not sure if taking out the heart kills people in this system. It should just put people on cardiac arrest and make them take ox and brain damage.

[Regular Joe]

1 hour ago, Calecute said:

The loss of brain transplants is trully sad. But I'm not sure if taking out the heart kills people in this system. It should just put people on cardiac arrest and make them take ox and brain damage.

Yeah, my bad there. Cardiac arrest and then placing the new heart in quickly (for not to kill the brain), finish with defib to start the heart.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Regular Joe

[RadiantFlash]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the way people will react to the new changes, is just building extra cloners? I mean, if the treatment ends up having more reliance on cloning, which was nefed, odds are they'll just build a second one every round, similarly to how upgrades to the ORM are expected by mining every round.
I feel like if you wanted to make death more impactful, simply enforcing clone memory disorder, making anyone who's cloned forget what killed them rather then all the changes. It would make trying to keep people alive and not just straight cloning important

Edited February 18, 2019 by RadiantFlash
Added thoughts.

[Mitchs98]

You can still do brain transplants VIA SR as far as I'm aware, by the way. It should fullstop revive them, period. It is a revival chem after all.

[Regular Joe]

9 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

You can still do brain transplants VIA SR as far as I'm aware, by the way. It should fullstop revive them, period. It is a revival chem after all.

Honk, I've lost my track on where we are going now, so SR on clonables is possible again. Fair enough, then.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Regular Joe

[Carbonknight666]

On 2/17/2019 at 9:51 PM, EvadableMoxie said:

The lack of revival methods is kind of baked into the new crit system.  If it's easy to revive someone who dies on you while in crit, then them being in crit loses it's weight.

 

Alright so they are forcing the medical system to be far less realistic and less fun.

Neat.

Imagine going to the ER and the doctors where like "sorry their heart stopped in the ambulance so we just body bagged them because there was nothing we could do, chest compression are witchcraft"

They should put a conveyor system into and out of the cloning pod because that's all med bay will be now.
 

[Fursamie]

5 hours ago, Carbonknight666 said:

Alright so they are forcing the medical system to be far less realistic and less fun.

Neat.

Imagine going to the ER and the doctors where like "sorry their heart stopped in the ambulance so we just body bagged them because there was nothing we could do, chest compression are witchcraft"

They should put a conveyor system into and out of the cloning pod because that's all med bay will be now.
 

"Shit, patient died."
"Just defib him?"
"Sounds like something a WITCH WOULD SAY! GET HIM!!"
patient comes back to life, grabs pitchfork
"HANG THE WITCH!!"
 

[Dinarzad]

6 hours ago, Carbonknight666 said:

They should put a conveyor system into and out of the cloning pod because that's all med bay will be now.

It won't though.
Like I'm not saying that I agree with the changes, at all.
But that's just being a little disingenuous about the state of it, we both know that's not an accurate metaphor or equivalence at all, that there ARE systems at play and that doctors ARE doing those systems. They may not be systems we like, an the cloner will definitely be used more now, but to say medbay may as well be a conveyor to an from the cloner is just willfully misrepresenting the issue. Because I guess smaller injuries, surgery for things like broken bones, internal bleeding and limb reatattchment and the entire crit state just don't exist anymore, Paramedics don't exist and what is even that SR thing.
Like. Yes. The Cloner will be used more, too much in the eyes of many, it's less realistic, etc.
But god damn, y'all act like reviving dead people was your ONLY job and that with this change, all non-dead people will cease to exist, in a perpetuial state of being not quite dead, but also dead, a Schrodinger's Hellscape will overcome us all an doom will fall onto our station as Nar-sie nibbles on our meaty bits.

Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players.
It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.

[Pennwick]

I haven't gotten a chance to really sink my teeth into the New Crit system. My only medical rounds have been in chemistry and I just know I'm pumping out chems all shift with barely any free time.

However my big gripe currently is not all the changes are centralized in one place. Its hard to tell whats change and what hasn't. Can we have a end all location where all these changes are listed. Discord points to the guide and the guide doesn't mention a lot of the smaller changes. Almost every round the CMO will still give me their hypospray not realising it contains mitochloride instead of omni. The only place that seems to be mentioned is halfway down the PR. I only learned Corazone was disabled by reading the feedback thread. I was adding rezadone to my SR pills to help combat the clone damage without realising that that detriment to SR no longer exists. Its going to be a hard pill to swallow either way but can we at least get all the changes transparent and centralized?

Edited February 19, 2019 by Pennwick
typo

[EvadableMoxie]

9 hours ago, Carbonknight666 said:

Alright so they are forcing the medical system to be far less realistic and less fun.

I'd argue it's more realistic not to have magical defibs that revive dead people.  I don't feel realism has much value though. I agree with you on less fun, but of course that's subjective.

 

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players.
It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.

You're right that it's hyperbolic to say literally everyone will have to be cloned.  That said, it will reduce the 'pool' of patients medical has that can be interacted with in ways other than cloning them. That's going to be rough for a department that already struggles to generate enough to do most rounds. Exactly how bad it's going to be is open for debate, but it's going to be some degree of bad.

 

[Regular Joe]

2 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

You're right that it's hyperbolic to say literally everyone will have to be cloned.  That said, it will reduce the 'pool' of patients medical has that can be interacted with in ways other than cloning them. That's going to be rough for a department that already struggles to generate enough to do most rounds. Exactly how bad it's going to be is open for debate, but it's going to be some degree of bad.

 

Echoing what are said on hyperbolics. Concerning the pool of patients that medbay could interact with, one interesting factor there is, whether they arrive to the treatment alive or dead.

Since there is no damage-threshold of dying, but death happens by the death of brain, it should end up to dying taking more time now. No more instadeath on extreme violence. And fatal cases happen due few reasons, out of which some concern only a single person and some a number of people, if not everyone in the station. To the first category belong accidents and traitor-murders, to the another mass-casualty events, namely, bomb and fire scenes, blob, nukeops, spiders and xenos. Out of the victims of these categories of circumstances, the latter should - in theory atleast - live longer now, after their initial decapacitation, hopefully long enough to be stabilized for waiting. So the newcrit might not necessarily reduce that patient pool. Need to actually see more of these events with newcrit enabled to confirm, though. If there was a reasonable chance to the victims of that latter category to be stabilized, there is no grave concern of the medbay losing their interactive work. The first-category victims would not pose a problem, for if the traitormurderer is good or the accident gross enough, it is reasonable that the victims of these could not be helped quickly enough. And if the murder was not done well or the accident wasn't that bad, an aware paramedic should be able to deal with it.

Either way, I'd hope that there will be a tool to revive a freshly-dead patient anyway. There is a balance issue in such a hope, of course.  

2 hours ago, Pennwick said:

Can we at least get all the changes transparent and centralized?

That would be neat, for referencing things with ease.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Regular Joe

[Jountax]

I really just need to say I agree that making slimes and dionae change to fit the new system is... not ideal. Slimes are the race I play as so they're the ones I will comment on.

Not having organs is the point of playing a slime, and having a heart isn't even unrealistic. Many species in real life have no heart or have a very simple one, and slimes appear to be modeled on essentially being a giant amoeba which don't need to circulate their cytoplasm to get chemicals where they need to be. Additionally, they are entirely immune to respiratory damage, hence taking toxin instead while in crit, and it sounds like either that will change too (in which case why not just play human?) or it won't (in which case why mess with slimes at all?)

Also, slimes are already weak to brain damage and can't be cloned. If a brain damage and cloning reliant medical system is applied to them they will need to be reworked.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Jountax

[Pckables]

So after seeing this system in play outside of a medical perspective, all its really done is make being in critical extremely deadly. The big problem is that this is a huge obstacle for antags in combat.
You can't just synthflesh your way out of a bad spot anymore. Once you go into cardiac arrest, which can happen at just -20, you're dead without medbay, something you can't get if you're wanted. It's become even easier for antags to die, both from security and validhunters, because the threshold for death has become so much lower.
If anything, newcrit forces people to either be even more stealthy, or even more aggressive so that they never risk taking a bullet.