New Crit Discussion:

[Fox McCloud]

1 hour ago, Pckables said:

So after seeing this system in play outside of a medical perspective, all its really done is make being in critical extremely deadly. The big problem is that this is a huge obstacle for antags in combat.
You can't just synthflesh your way out of a bad spot anymore. Once you go into cardiac arrest, which can happen at just -20, you're dead without medbay, something you can't get if you're wanted. It's become even easier for antags to die, both from security and validhunters, because the threshold for death has become so much lower.
If anything, newcrit forces people to either be even more stealthy, or even more aggressive so that they never risk taking a bullet.

 

Uh, this is hyperbole in the vast vast vast majority of cases.

 

At 0 health to -49, you can only roll for a chance to acquire shock. It's only from -50 health onwards that you start rolling for a chance to acquire cardiac failure. You don't start rolling for a heart attack until you're below -100 health (you'd be dead by this point in old crit).

 

Now for extreme edge cases where you roll for shock the split moment you enter crit (3% chance of this happening), then the very next tick it advances a stage (6%) chance, the tick after, it advances another stage (another 6%), then the tick yet after that it rolls for giving you cardiac failure (5%) chance, this could happen, but you're dealing with chances far below winning even the lottery (0.00054% chance of this happening). The chances of you acquire cardiac failure prior to -50 health are very very very low. Heck, after 25 ticks of being in crit, there's still a whopping 54% chance that you won't even acquire shock. The chance of you not acquiring shock by the time you're at -50 is still a sizeable 22%.

 

So again, is it possible to acquire cardiac failure by the time you hit -20? Technically yes, but statistically, it's extremely unlikely to happen; you'll see it when their health is under -50 (over 150 damage), but outside of this? Incredibly unlikely.

[EvadableMoxie]

Discussing the chance of it occurring on literally the first possible tick isn't very useful for us to get a handle on how much it's going to impact antags. I think it would be a lot more useful to know, on average, how long it would take for someone at -1 HP to die, assuming they took no additional damage from outside sources. 

[Calecute]

1 minute ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Discussing the chance of it occurring on literally the first possible tick isn't very useful for us to get a handle on how much it's going to impact antags. I think it would be a lot more useful to know, on average, how long it would take for someone at -1 HP to die, assuming they took no additional damage from outside sources. 

Yes please, we need a Average time to Die x initial damage graph, and also a frequency distribution of times to die for some arbitrary damage numbers like -1 -25 -50 -100 and -200

[Regular Joe]

27 minutes ago, Calecute said:

Yes please, we need a Average time to Die x initial damage graph, and also a frequency distribution of times to die for some arbitrary damage numbers like -1 -25 -50 -100 and -200

Yeah, and that would be balancing-thing to do there, if the death was too quick in average. If there is, in average, enough long a time between getting injured and the point of death, it will be all good. During the deep shit time, the way to play medbay needs a change, though, as an answer to the altered situation. To prevent deaths happening, there must be more first-aid, more than the paramedic could give alone - referring to one of my posts concerning this. That would not be a bad thing at all, if you ask from me atleast - given that there is enough time to stabilize casualties, with the effort to provide first-aid is present.

To get a hunch of it, need to play it, maybe share here the experiences. Antag side is another question, yes. Guess you could deal with it if you epi'd and treated yourself some of the external damage as quick as possible (like before). If you got hit below of -50 and the cardiac things kick in, it's out of luck probably - but such happened before too, there was no way out of deepcrit without external aid, well possibly previously taken chems as an expection.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Regular Joe

[Grey]

Personally, I liked the rework after playing in medbay for a few high-pop rounds. The update seems to be aimed at making medbay more highly skilled, and I can see how this could be detrimental in the eyes of most players. There is an adjustment period, and anyone NOT playing medbay might have to spend more time until they are resuscitated ( Considering that most doctors aren't knowledgeable enough to perform increasingly more complex procedures without making it take forever ( which is very not fun for the dead players )), however, for those who are well-versed in medbay resuscitation times shouldn't be affected, but antagonists will now have more incentive to carry a saline/epinephrine mix if they intend to get in combat. 

As a big fan of SR, the fact that it doesn't cause any more genetic damage in the light of these changes is a huge appeal to me, since treating brain damage if a patient has been dead for too long is quick and easy with mitocholide anyway.

[Allfd]

I really like it,   some things will need to be worked out if/after its merged,  but its an ongoing process.

[EvadableMoxie]

As a test, I used an admin spawned human and used admin tools to deal 200 burn damage, then timed how long it took for them to die.  These times aren't precise as I don't have a stopwatch and had to alt tab back and forth, but are generally accurate within 1-2s.

Test 1: 2:28.  Subject started taking brain damage after 1:47.  Died with 664 respiration damage and 75 brain damage

Test 2:  0:56. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:35. Died with 297 respsiration damage and 36 brain damage.

Test 3 0:18. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:08. Died with 139 respiration damage and 18 brain damage.

Test 4: 1:33. Byond bugged and didn't update the scanner so I don't know when brain damage started.  Died with 818 respiration damage and 102 brain damage.

Test 5: 1:43. Subject started taking brain damage after 1:05. Died with 530 respiration damage and 60 brain damage.

I'd hazard a guess that in a real scenario the odds any of those test dummies could have been saved by medical, even if it was staffed by the best medical players in existence is practically zero, simply because none of them would likely have made it to medical before dying.  Keep in mind, these numbers are withn me using  admin tools to deal 200 burn damage. In a realistic scenario where someone is taking brute by an antag or atmos death blender, it's probably going to be a lot worse.

There definitely needs to be some adjustments made on the time til death, and there certainly needs to be a floor so patients can't just randomly die in 20 seconds.

Edit: For some practical advice to anyone playing medical.

At round start acquire a bucket.

Go to the mendvend.   Vend a bottle of Epi, Sal-Glu, Atropine, and Salylic Acid.  Then vend 1 pill of Mannitol and 1 pill of Salbumtol.  Add 20 of each bottle to the bucket, then disolve both pills in it.  Grab a syringe and fill it.  Inject literally everyone who comes into medical in crit with that. If you're the CMO, use your hypo instead of a syringe, it's faster.  Normal hypos won't take atropine sadly, and if you have to give it separately it kind of defeats the point of the hypo being faster. 

Edit 2: Actually, forget all that.  Just carry Atropine, it's all you need.  They can't die unless they suffer cardiac arrest, and they can't suffer cardiac arrest if they have Atropine in them.  Defib if their heart is already stopped.  Once atropine is in them, treat as normal to get them out of critical.  In fact, it should generally be safe to just inject 15u of atropine from a syringe and then dump them into cryo as long as their heart isn't already stopped.

Edit 3: Theoretically, you should be able to just add atropine to the cryomix and just cryo everyone.  Will require testing.

Once that's done, your biggest issue will be your fellow doctors trying to drag your patients away and throw them into cryo.  I would recommend murdering them with a hatchet. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Carbonknight666]

On 2/19/2019 at 11:04 AM, EvadableMoxie said:

I'd argue it's more realistic not to have magical defibs that revive dead people.

The defib reviving is not realistic yes, but not being able to restart a heart is incredibly unrealistic. 

As I've said multiple times, if real doctors in real ERs are working on a critical patient and their heart stops, they can and frequently do revive them. 

A shot of epinephrine and chest compressions can restart a heart. So I agree changing the defibrillator was a good idea as a one click revive like that is dumb, but there are times when trying to stabilize someone where restarting their heart is apart of the process. Needing to clone everyone who's heart stops or use a really hard to make chemical to do so is unrealistic and not fun.

Not to mention heart transplants, head and brain situations. 

You need to remember,  just because the system works when Admins test it, that does not mean players will be efficient smart or play properly. Have you actually played ss13 before? They don't call it malpractice bay for nothing. You need to build it for the community not yourself. You need to think about how it will be played not how it should be played.

The new crit system has lots of positives but it has massive problems that I guarantee won't be adressed because let's be real, this thread is less a feedback discussion thread and more a "suggestion box" sign over a paper shredder.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Carbonknight666

[BeanOS]

Don't know if it is intended or not, but with the new crit system, as a terror spider, it was impossible to kill someone to the point of being able to web them, without waiting for 2 minutes after they had entered crit, regardless to how badly damaged they were.

[EvadableMoxie]

So upon further testing:

You can use a 60/60 atropine/Cryox mix in your cryotubes. It won't save everyone but with how much RNG there is in the system, nothing will.  The only caveat is that you have to make sure their heart doesn't stop, so if damage is below -100 or so, eject them every so often to check. It'll be pretty rare anyone that hurt makes it to medical alive, though.

The other option is atropine and then use a sleeper to inject salgu, salb, and epine. This will eventually stabilize them.

Or in the field, atropine and treat the damage like you'd normally do. 

I hope a pattern is developing here.  Carry syringes of Atropine round.

Although patients don't instantly die at -100, much beyond that they die so fast that they might as well.  I wasn't able to save anyone with more than -200 HP even giving them immediate treatment with defibs and atropine, they still just randomly die, even without cardiac arrest hitting stage 3.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Splgrk]

The system really seems super deadly. I mean, maybe it was an extreme fluke, but... I went into medbay with some damage and a broken rib. I was in the red, not critical, just red. Could still walk and talk, didn't seem too bad. Surgeon scanned me, popped me on the table, put the nitreous oxide on and... I died. Immediately, from one second to the other. Asking back with an admin tells me that no, that wasn't an assassination attempt or a slow-acting poison, I just died from long- term wound effects.

 

You know what would probably help? Buffing paramedics. Maybe for a start, larger shifts could have two paramedics and they could start with some more emergency gear to stabilize people? (Are Stasis Bags still a thing? I haven't played medbay in years.)

[Calecute]

Given that people are complaining both that you take forever to die and that you die to quickly, I'm gonna assume that the system is just more random. 

[Althalos]

I don't much see the point of discussing these merges if the maintainers/administrators won't take it into consideration to begin with.

[Landerlow]

2 hours ago, Althalos said:

I don't much see the point of discussing these merges if the maintainers/administrators won't take it into consideration to begin with.

Been saying this for some time. 

[BeanOS]

It really does break a lot of stuff beyond making medical annoying.

Terrors have to wait ages to be able to cocoon victims, cult don't get healed properly by pylons and unholy water.

Those are just the problems I have encountered so far, who knows how many more issues there are.

[Landerlow]

Trauma patches removed I think, so what is used in surgery now to fix organ damage?

[Landerlow]

Also don't get me started on the fact that corazone is removed. The ONE chemical that would actually be super helpful is removed. Like, seriously? 

[R1f73r]

4 minutes ago, Landerlow said:

Trauma patches removed I think, so what is used in surgery now to fix organ damage?

Fix O vein

[Landerlow]

Well at least that's something. I still think the new system is horrible, however.

[BeanOS]

You just get forced into being locked into crit for 2 minutes, then die... but that is inconveniant for everyone because:-

You can't do anything really while in crit, then are dead .

If you are a terror and get someone in crit you need to wait for the 2 minutes to be up for them to "properly die", so you can cocoon them.

Culty healing things can't bring you out of crit Changeling fleshmend, doesn't bring you out of crit.

This all needs to be fixed, or ideally just revert to old crit.

[SkeletalElite]

New crit is terrible and unfun for literally everyone involved. I can't forsee myself playing the server much in the future if it were to stay.

[Cergosum]

While reactions to something new are likely going to end up being negative just by human tendencies... I feel like this new crit system has more than just that pulling it down. The system adds nothing fun, and doesn't really add more variety and options. My most interesting medical experience while the test was on involved a maddeningly long decline through which I was unable to speak, offer advice, make signs, nothing. I just sat there gasping as life slowly ebbed away, which was terrible, but that wasn't too bad because it was dramatic and created an interesting story. The part that made me upset was after this long struggle, they popped me into a cloner and "ding" I was back in better shape than I was before.

I don't know if this is what you were going for, it seems like it takes a lot away from the fun of the game to create a little extra RP that was sorta there already. The "depth" of the system is bottlenecked by cloning and SR already.
Gameplay-wise, and even RP-wise, it would have been more merciful for the Paramedic to put me out of my misery and just focus on cloning me since the cloning tanks were free.

[davidchan]

Seems like the new crit system is screwing up antags far more than regular crew. Lings, Wizards, Nuke Ops, Agents. If they go into shock once they basically have no hope of recovering.

Also what was the point of adding variance to medical when  you're simultaneously removing many of the basic tools and items?

[Xerdies]

I am mixed about the new system - and here is why. 

I like the idea of reworking crit, of making it more deadly and more serious, but it comes with a huge nerf to medical systems and makes the decision often just a two way street. 

Can I fix him fast? - Fix him fast
Anything more complicated? - Into cloning they go. 

This two-way approach to medical is partially due to players being lazy, and partially due to them just not knowing better, the chemist being trash or other unforeseen consequences. 

I had a few rounds where Fox was my Doctor, and I have seen in person that, if you know what you are doing, you can fix people without stuffing them into cloning. In addition, several times he fixed me up from things that I thought were a guaranteed death. Nevertheless, unfortunately not every player is like this. 

Personally, I would ask for more depth in the medical system. I have just taken a short look at TG station, and frankly, I know nothing about how their medical system works. However, the idea alone of brain damage that add random effects sounds far more advanced than what we have right now. I agree, medical should become more interesting, but personally, I would add more systems into the diagram of procedures. Example: Allow them to clone people, but - it might result in brain damage - and woops, person has now "Monophobia - The patient will become increasingly stressed when not in company of others, triggering panic reactions ranging from sickness to heart attacks." which needs to be treated as well. 

In addition: No system should be reliant on one factor. Currently, I feel like the chemist is too important. Destroy the cloner, kill the chemist (or chemist area) – Medbay is done. Back then they still had the defib as a last resort, but this path is now closed. 

Overall - the game is Semi Realistic - allowing us to bend the rules, reality, and time just enough. Because if Survival Games taught me anything: Realism is not always fun.
 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Xerdies

[Allfd]

6 hours ago, Cergosum said:

The part that made me upset was after this long struggle, they popped me into a cloner and "ding" I was back in better shape than I was before.

Exactly this,  the lack of downsides on death, makes the struggle to keep someone alive on the new system a questionable use of time.