New Crit Discussion:

[BeanOS]

Go back to the old crit system and just remove cloning

Problem solved.

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, BeanOS said:

just remove cloning

Solves nothing, causes even more problems and is a scapegoat people like to lean on for what they deem "Not skilled gameplay" as if we were some kinda Dark Souls experience.
It's fine.
It was fine.
It will continue to BE fine.

Cloning as a system continues to be used in almost every single codebase that SS13 has, with Baystation having removed it relatively recently, and even for a High RP station it pissed a lot of people off. So unless y'all are aiming to get in on the HIGH RP Perma-death action, maybe look at other codebases an put more thought into why the system exists as a whole an find ways to improve medical that don't involve pointlessly gutting entire systems because some people can't stand not getting specifically colored text for 10 seconds at the end of a round.
I was pretty sure games were meant to be fun, but sure, being dead for 5-10 minutes or more as every single corpse that doesn't die in medical has to be given SR an gone through that whole long proceadure, will be ever so fun.
I mean it's so fun NOW to be stuck in crit, right?

[BeanOS]

I was being more lighthearted than it appeared, but only play non cloneable races anyway.

[Fursamie]

9 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Solves nothing, causes even more problems and is a scapegoat people like to lean on for what they deem "Not skilled gameplay" as if we were some kinda Dark Souls experience.
It's fine.
It was fine.
It will continue to BE fine.

Cloning as a system continues to be used in almost every single codebase that SS13 has, with Baystation having removed it relatively recently, and even for a High RP station it pissed a lot of people off. So unless y'all are aiming to get in on the HIGH RP Perma-death action, maybe look at other codebases an put more thought into why the system exists as a whole an find ways to improve medical that don't involve pointlessly gutting entire systems because some people can't stand not getting specifically colored text for 10 seconds at the end of a round.
I was pretty sure games were meant to be fun, but sure, being dead for 5-10 minutes or more as every single corpse that doesn't die in medical has to be given SR an gone through that whole long proceadure, will be ever so fun.
I mean it's so fun NOW to be stuck in crit, right?

There is a server called CEV Eris that, summed up, has a religion and only the members of that religion can be cloned. If you are not a member of that religion (which usually most of the station isnt), defibbing is the only way to go and it has worked fine so far. Mind you, this is a MRP ship where everyone knows all the antags, can buy guns with nonlethal (and i believe if you prowl maint, lethal ammunition), nazi roaches in maint at roundstart and a dictatorship-esque captainship. Granted it's population is waaaaay less than paradise so things are generally less hectic, but it's still SS13 so it is chaos half the time. 

(I would like to point out there is a 30min timer to respawn, and it can be shortened to 8 minutes if you are put in a morgue tray, however unless the round is tranquil this will not happen, and very few players wait for the 30min timer, as the round would be near end/ending unless they've died near roundstart.)

[Carbonknight666]

On 2/21/2019 at 10:23 AM, Althalos said:

I don't much see the point of discussing these merges if the maintainers/administrators won't take it into consideration to begin with.

It's like fake thermostats in offices or Russian democracy. It's an illusion to make us think the staff care about the player base when they don't.

[Carbonknight666]

19 hours ago, Xerdies said:

I had a few rounds where Fox was my Doctor, and I have seen in person that, if you know what you are doing, you can fix people without stuffing them into cloning. In addition, several times he fixed me up from things that I thought were a guaranteed death. Nevertheless, unfortunately not every player is like this. 

This is another excellent point. Speaking from experience you have to factor in your players. Just because something works when you the developer dose it or in tests, does not mean it will work well when deployed to the player base. 

You have to ballance what you want with how your players use what you provide.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Carbonknight666

[Allfd]

On 2/23/2019 at 12:16 PM, Carbonknight666 said:

You have to ballance what you want with how your players use what you provide.

A good portion of the staff wants to move the server back in a more medium RP focused direction.  I think that will involve loosing some of the player base to servers that more closely mirror what they expect.  I think we would be fine with that.

Regardless of popularity, making any major PR changes in the future will be DOA if this does not happen. 

We are obviously hear and listening, but if the response is "No, everything is fine."  Well, if I don't think its fine, then I disagree? 

We don't really need people to say "No"  we need alternatives.  Because otherwise the response to feedback of "No, everything is fine." is "Yes, its not fine."

[Regular Joe]

So I took some doctor, chemist and CMO shifts during the test merge, my impressions to go:

• Medbay side

- If an injured hit the medbay before falling death, the treatment is easy. A quick triage - is the heart ok and running, what kind of damage there are, what should I do first on - then chems, patches or defib first depending of the need.

Concerning the mechanics from the medbay side, death seem to happen - as also provided in Evadable's previous tests - by the random chance, which becomes more probable the greater the total damage is. Respiration damage accumulates at tremendous rate if the cardiac arrest kicks in, but defibbing and giving epi+atropine also tremendously heals it. Brain damage should, according to the newcrit guide, count more into the possibility of dying. I had the impression that brain damage usually won't get high enough to be the main cause for the death. The time window of living after critically injured, that is some 1:30...2 minutes now, might be too short for it to actually happen.

From the medbay side, the system works and is quite fun to play - if they arrive there living. As said, this is too short when the only option to cope with the dead are cloning and SR'ing.

• Antag side

Since I very rarely roll antag and didn't do that during the merge, I've got nothing to say here on my own - but what was observed and mentioned above, the test merge broke up antag side things. The crit mechanism, due taking care of needs the specific chems or even a defib, it makes things very hard for cult, changelings, vamps, wizards and nukeops,  if they are in the receiving end.

Also their violent actions get complicated, since the time window of living after being hit hard is the rough minute and half. Specially terrors have a need to instakill their downed victims, as mentioned. These problems seem unintended.

Alternatives

With the tested revision, the antag side problems are more or less breaking their game. Concerning the medbay, newcrit is more or less fine IF they arrive alive, but the possibility for that actually happening is too short now.

The newcrit stuff is aiming to make more immersion into getting hurt really bad, that way endorsing more RP, right? The current system isn't that realistic or complicated, true that. But the ingame realism is indeed a certain dilemma. Realism has to be traded for gameplay. At the cloning and reliability thread there was a neat discussion concerning that topic. SS13 is a kind of scifi fantasy world that mimics the reality (whatever it is) and known scifi and fantasy phenomenae. Well this we all do know, but considering the oldcrit it should be remembered, too, as well as considering the alternatives for changing it.

So I'd say there are three ways to continue on;

• either staying with the old system,
• either having a compromise with the old and the new system, with the already-existing tricks from the both systems
• either overhaul the newcrit even more.

If the intent is to implent the newcrit without compromises, I'm afraid that quite a lot of work is needed to deal with the observed issues. The timespan of crit should be extended from it was during the test, for the sake of medbay being able to cope with the critically injured patients. But in the meanwhile, antags definitely need the possibility to kill someone instantly.

The way I'd see this to be coped, if no compromises are the way to go, is not only about further altering the crit and dying mechanisms, but altering the very mechanisms of damage aswell. So I would call it an overhaul. For I don't speak BYOND, I've got no idea of what would it take, it seems like a huge work anyway. Since I felt the urge to nerd (pro writing some school stuff...), I'll have here an idea of overhauling, some irl background for it, followed by an obviously more reasonable suggestion of an in-between solution (which is not my own, but from Norwest’s long post, from the other thread).

Consider what said on realism with this input - not going to say these things should be implemented, or even are in the range of sane or possible for that at all. I'm writing them for the cause of providing some irl data and so possible ideas of mimicing that in spess.

 

Overhauling newcrit: some nerdy irl backround on the results of violence

The hazards of the spessmen could be somewhat-relevantly reflected to actual hazards of a battlefield. Rough cases at cyberiad are more often than not caused by excess violence, namely projectiles, sharp melee, fires, explosives and the beloved fastmos blunt; that is the common ground there. Talking about battlefield casualties, they are divided to few categories: instantly fatal, acute, urgent, priority and routine patients. Out of these categories, acute and urgent cases form the medevac category A, while priority and routine patients are B and C respectively. A-class patients are to be in a hospital (which is, battalion- or 2nd level in the field) within 2 hours; B and C cases in 4 and 24 hours. The times are irrelevant considering the game stuff, but you'll get a picture of which kind of injuries those might be from the evac time required.

Now, in a rough example, casualties in a present-day battlefield. The following figures are most probably from IDF, EF and ISAF experiences. Just to note, the irl medical side isn't my actual military profession at all, but they've been hammering the basics of that in my head long enough.

So, some 5-8 per cent of the casualties are instantly fatal or acutely will become fatal; meaning that even if they could be evacuated succesfully as A-class patients, they will die almost certainly. Culprits to these are catasthrophic or traumatic brain and heart injuries (ie. a shrapnel or a bullet in the brain or the heart), dismemberment (which we know as gibbing, caused by more or less direct HE hits), neck hits (shrapnels or roadside accidents) and, in a minority, catasthropic stomach or chest hits (that is, really violent projectile hits). These all mean that the victim had really bad luck, if they were not a victim to violence dedicated specially to them, ie. if they weren't a subject to a murder.

The rest 90 percent of casualties would survive, or are survivable. Lately it has also been so, that survivable patients do survive. Reason is obviously the fact that the present western combat experience is from various low intensity guerilla conflicts, where evacuating and first aid could be done more or less freely. The ranges of engaging being anything over 150m - for what I've read, they are usually much beyond that - there is a relative safety to perform a field or "first first-aid" and then move to the actual safety, again more or less uninterrupted. Intense combat would dramatically lower the amount of survivors of initially survivable injuries, since either the field first-aid or the evacuation procedure is certainly interrupted.

Anyway, a wide range of injuries, both in type and seriousness, form the group of casualties that survive. In conjunction with the evac A-B-C system, we use the so called cABC to determine the type and seriousness of the injuries. It is dubbed for critical hemorrhage, Airways, Breathing, Circulation. The cABC thing is done to anyone who gets hurt, scratch the obvious instant fatalites. In practice, it is just a rinse-repeat mechanical trick of checking certain things out of a wounded person. Moreover - again scratching the instant or acute cases - all of the injuries who fall in the categories of cABC can be first-aided effectively.

I'll explain these briefly.

Critical bloodloss happens with most projectile and-or shrapnel hits. These are the most frequent wounds in a battlefield. The c-wounds are mostly situated to arms or legs. Critical hemorrhage can kill in a timespan of some 20 seconds to couple of minutes, depending on which vein where is hit. Thankfully the c-wounds are also the most easy and quick ones to first-aid. Leg or arm case, apply tourniquet, else, apply pressure (emergency) bandage and-or hemostat bandage. That's it if the wound isn't a grossly huge one in chest or groin. Then it would be called a "catastrophic stomach/chest" hit and is an acute case. "Acute case" - notice the logic!  Acute case actually means a case that we are unable to effectively first-aid, and those are in all circumstancies a small minority.

Airways are the case if a minor internal bleeding from a projectile trauma happen to block your breathing, and are first-aided by setting the person lying on the ground in a certain posture. Breathing and Circulation are the problem if there is a gone-in in the chest or a general shock happening. First-aid to these are, in the case of a shock, CPR, securing the body temperature and possibly using stimulants (though my training doesn't cover the lattest).

Shock in the context of violent injuries is, by the way, a symptom of suffered hemorrhage, most often. The second possible reason for that is a gone-in (not gone-through) in the chest, which creates a pressure of air and blood that can't escape to the lungs. It is first aided by chest punctuation, a violent act of making there a space for air to get off the lungs. Third one is a sub-conscious phenomenon, which happens if it happens due the entirety of symptoms.

Sidenote to newcrit cardiac failures, no violent damage directly result to any cardiac failures (scratch the obvious direct hit to heart, though). Shock, failure and arrest are all outcomes of the actual cause of death. That is, in the context of violent injuries, most likely hemorrhage, specially if it was not first-aided in time.

I don't know how actual burn or brute, in the meaning of blunt damage, leads to death.I guess burns lead to septicism in the long run, and in case of violent burns, to death of heart tissue by temperature, if not preceded by inhalation of toxic smoke gases. For pure blunt I guess massive internal hemorrhage.   

Speaking of "first-aid" in common, the first aid I mean hereby is something that any soldier with a basic rinse-repeat mechanical training can do. The only thing that matter there is speed. Moreover, atleast in my experience every deployed soldier has all the tools to do the tricks. For the obvious reasons, the kits are issued so that you carry the one for yourself, for if you had it the helper will use your kit on you. However everyone should be able to do the most things. Advanced care is done by more-or-less professionals, and getting there usually needs fair amount of evacuation.  Reflecting this to spess, Cyberiad is no military station. The IC spessmen of course expect their shifts to be peaceful and productive in first hand,  but they have some IC anticipation of possible hostiles too, enough for it to feel reasonable that crew is issued a basic first aid kit.

• TL;DR, first aid is the king in the vast majority of cases, if you apply it quickly enough.

- -
Overhauling, an idea
Considering the previous, we of course are not into turning ss13 into a military medical trauma simulator. So we want to mimic reality for the sake of immersion, RP and gameplay. My quick throw into that direction would be that, in short

• a) make the type of violence matter more
• b) as a counter, make first aid great again

Now the main newcrit reason of dying is the shock. It causes cardiac failures, which in turn generate respiration damage
making the random chance of death big enough with accumulating total damage.  This is indeed more complex than oldcrit threshold of death, no matter what type of damage it was. Still the damage type doesn't matter much. If I cure the underlying condition, which now is solely the shock, and then cure the damagepoints, the patient will be fine in no time.

 

• a) Make the type of violence matter more?

Mimicing the irl things would be the thing here. Namely, make there a few ways to instantly kill a person. I don't know how to code-engineer these, though, but I have two ideas.

• 1. Threshold of damage in certain (short) amount of time.

I'd imagine that it could be possible to create a threshold of damage in certain short period of time that results into instant death. Damagepoints refer to the severity, right? Mimicing irl, giving someone really grue violence would lead to their instadeath, and the threshold in a period of ticks is the actual meter of the violence. So if I fire like three shots of .357 to a chest in a row, it would be enough to drop the poor victim dead instantly. That would mimic "catashtropic chest/groin." This threshold would make it possible for antags to rapidly kill their victims when they have the possibility to concentrate on their victim. Talk about spiders or the classic maint murder.

• 2. Hemorrhage.

Otherwise, hemorrhage would be the main reason for death, as it certainly is the reason for deaths caused by violence, in nearly all forms. To achieve that in-game, the threshold of dying by bloodloss should be higher in general. Currently, going under 20 percent of blood will instantly kill you - which practically happens only with rampant vampires.

If I remember right, the fatal bloodloss would be losing 40% of it in rapid. So ingame goung below some 50-60% would instantly kill you. The shock with the cardiac failures, as present, would stay as a symtom of hemorrhage AND suffered but first-aided hemorrhage. but the lethality of shock should be greatly nerfed. Make it a thing that will kill you if left unattended for a time.

Or - even more realism! - remove the threshold of dying due the blood level, and fix the RNG of entering shock to the amount of blood, instead of amount of damage points.Or - even more mimicing realism! - first, dramatically increase the respiration damage that bloodloss causes. Second, make the chance to acquire shock mainly dependant to the respiration damage. So if that will not be first-aided, losing of some 40-50% blood, which would happen really quick, would lead to a 100% chance of acquiring instant cardiac arrest and due that, death. As stated next toxin and burn points should perceive the link to shock, but their significance in acquiring should be nerfed. Actually, either of these might be my best idea hereby, but I can't decide which is the better one. Honk. Maybe the latter.

Going through some damage types next.

• Excess blunt, namely, really excess blunt, like it is received from a bunch of angry aliens or your local blood-red sithlord, would lead to massive internal bleeding. Make it separate to the regular internal bleeding. Also there would be the treshold in a time. If the nukie is out of killing just you, he would accomplish it by quickly accumulating your damagepoints with a number of hits. If he only was to say mere regards from the syndicate, with say, two-three blows, you'd have "only" the internal bleeding. So there could be levels in the severity of internal bleeding, depending on the threshold-in-time or the amount of damage received in one hit, as it is presently. Also, blunt would cause the "regular" mild bleeding, but not the hemorrhage.
• Projectile or sharp hit severe enough (threshold in points) will result in both damagepoints and, with a big randomchance, to external bloodshed, aka critical hemorrhage. Arms and legs would be more suspectible for hemorrhage. Projectile and sharp hits cause death by either hemorrhage or the threshold in a time; threshold should be rather big. For balance reasons I'd think that fastmos damage would count in as sharp (ie, things hitting you causes bleeding and if hit hard enough, hemorrhage), not blunt, for the sake of first aid ideas down below.
• Burn damage happens now because of fires, electric shocks, space or lasers. Hereby the threshold in a time might not work that smoothly. I'm bit uncertain what there could be. For the sake of simplicity (code-wise I guess) the symptoms and fatality would need to be the same for all stuff that cause burns. Maybe give the one who receives excess burn damage (fixed threshold? in-time threshold?) a good chance of going into the shock, as of irl heavy electric shock would bear that hazard? I have a guess that cardiac failures are a thing with severe tissue burn damage in overall.
• Respiration damage could bear the chance of falling to the shock. The very nature of respiration damage depends, in this idea, how much would hemorrhage affect it, as addressed above.
• Toxins could do the same as they did the test merge (rising the possibility to shock, with the side symptoms which were present at old system, too).
• Damagepoints in general would give impress of the deadliness of weapon just as it was previous. What matters now more though is some kind of DPS, at least when it comes to weapons that deal brute damage. The total amount of brute points, in other hand, would just impress the severity of the damage, the grander the grand total is the more it takes to be cured. Toxin and respiration damage would count in to the probability of shock, possibly that would be the case with burns too. In balance, toxin and burn damage should be more difficult to acquire, or their weigh on acquiring shock nerfed. Well, lasers are underpowered to ballistics even now, and getting toxicated is rather seldomly happening (if you don't count in ghostsalt).

TL;DR, if somebody gets hurt, they die either by the threshold-in-a-time - resembling excessive and dedicated violence and allowing antags to perform instakills when they can and have the need to - either by a shock caused by burns or hemorrhage, and these could be efficiently prevented or stabilized, as I propose as next,

namely,

 

• b) MFAGA! Make first aid great again!

The aforementioned might look like just a bunch of even more quick ways to get your spaceman killed. However, to counter the number and aggressiveness of the lethal hazards, first-aid would be buffed. As first-aid is a thing irl - it can be miraculously efficient if applied in time.

Critical hemorrhage is countered with an emergency bandage. Irl we have two tools, tourniquet and this, but for the sake of simplicity we could do with only one (emergency bandage could actually be used as tourniquet as well, but that requires some tricks). Emergency bandage would be the new epipen, carried by all crewmembers. It would work as rolls of gauze works now (they should be then nerfed or turned into these), given that in intents, you aim the bleeding spot. It would also take a brief time, just like using traumakit to self does now.

Using the bandage would lead to reduction of speed, and if it is applied to arm, similar effect than having bone broken there. That would mimic the tourniquet patients being irl litter, if it's leg, possibly walking but yet unable to use the hand if it's the arm. Balance-wise, applying an effective way to prevent a certain death to every crewmember would have this as its downside; the patients won't be back in fight just the same they were few seconds ago.

• Somebody has his tourniquet but is his respiratory damage have made him fall to shock? CPR should really deal with shock, scratch the cardiac arrest. Make it not very time-consuming action and make it cure some of the respiration damage, below some fixed point (as of epinephrine does take care of oxyloss below... whatever it was), so the victim still needs medical attention but is likely to be stable for sometime. Medical staff would have more powerful tools to deal with the shock, that is the chems, like it was in the test merge.
• Massive internal bleeding? The result of blunt damage would, mimicing the issues with that irl, be a bit harder to firstaid. For (fastmos) balance reasons, the high-tech chems could combat the respiratory damage of it. Paramedic's job.
• After the initial first-aid, which would prevent dying if applied, the injured will need medical attention more or less fast. I think that would answer to the call of endorse more RP. People aren't afraid of getting killed ingame, they are afraid of being out of the game or severely hindered in it. Making first aid great again, with downsides that more or less makes them unable to go back to combat (or tiding), would be a engaging way to do it. Also, if no co-operation is present, they will die nevertheless, and co-operation is the thing that makes RP to happen, isn't it?
• Last but not least, what about antags? They could use the same tools as crew, but obviously they need to have buffs in their special ways of medication. That is especially so for vampires, wizards and nukeops. High-tech syndicate concentrated blood pills for the ops? Rejuvenate+ deals with bleeding and shocks for vampires. Some nifty spell or item for the mage.

- - -

Sigh, did I write all that? Oh yeah, well it was entertaining to think around. Whether any of this is usable is an open question, for I personally don't speak BYOND to try anything on my own.

But the compromise suggestion I'd think of is much more simple and so reasonable than that wall of text. I'll just cite @Norwest from the medbay poll thread. (quote)

On 2/15/2019 at 6:15 AM, Norwest said:

--Suggestions:

A. The defibrillator issue:

-Slightly increase defib times. IIRC the old defib-capable times were up to five minutes, while the current number is two. The current number is far too small, given that defibrillators are rarely ever used in the field; unless you die inside the Medbay itself or near a mediborg, there's no saving you. I'd suggest moving it back to five minutes, to be counterbalanced with a significant penalty (see below). If you're dead-set on reducing defib times, though, then please at least split the difference and make it 3.5 minutes instead of the current "flash in the pan."

-Increased defibrillator times could be counterbalanced by having defibrillation inflict severe damage on the heart like it does IRL. This would require doctors to be careful and sparing about their defib use, and make it a gamble every time you place the paddles. Inflicting variable 10-35 heart damage per shock would allow someone to survive a single defib at a bare minimum, but would make multiple uses of the defibrillator a very dangerous game (i.e. suspenseful). Heart damage requires either chest surgery or mitocholide to fix, so either Chemistry or an MD being on the ball would be able to fix the damage. This'd add additional uncertainty due to the ever-present question of player competence, and would allow for meaningful success-stories to happen, such as "a competent Chemist saves patients from a defib-happy MD's mistakes" or vice versa.

- - -

C. Cloning:

As mentioned, I'd like cloning to be the "failure-state" of Medbay. People should have a real, lasting reason to not want to be cloned, and I'd suggest the following mechanisms for doing so:

-Implement some sort of [was cloned] penalty tag for anyone whose body was cloned. This would have a significant mechanical drawback which cannot be easily removed (that part is key). Options here include a brute/burn damage multiplier like IPCs, decreased maximum health, or a similar significant mechanical disadvantage. The goal here is to provide a penalty which even the powergamey-est of players would have to sit up and pay attention to; even if you don't give a shit about CMD, the mechanical cloning penalty would still make you sit up and pay attention. This could then be circumvented by brain transplantation into a humanized monkey (which would require both Genetics and an MD to be on the ball), or a similarly-circuitous method for anyone who really wants to get around it.

-I don't mind autoprocessing and autocloning, and I'd suggest keeping it in light of the above penalties. This would make prescanning a gamble: do you hope that your body gets found, or do you just say "screw it" and hop into the cloner, hoping that you can find a competent Geneticist and MD to help you out on the other side? (or will you be too busy once cloned, and have to just deal with the penalty anyway?)---

 

So the newcrit stuff would be as-is, maybe even made bit more quick to cause death, but defibs would revive again in the timespan of five minutes, with a cost. This makes it possible to have such a small timewindow of surviving alive after being critically injured, so not screwing the antags. Though, obviously antags need specific ways to deal with the shock.

Also I find what Norwest wrote on persisting symptoms most interesting, something that might have the desired impact and for sure a more entertaining one to go.

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Regular Joe
some formatting for being such a wall

[Benjaminfallout]

Hi. My name is Benjamin. I've been part of the paradise community for about 550 days and over this time I've played for about 1711 hours. That begin 71.29167 full days of my life pretending to be a farty space man.  I'd like to lie and say most of this was in medical since when I first got here it was all I played since I wanted to help other players out, but around the 1,000 hour mark I starting to mainly play assistant due to the fact medical stressed me out and I'd much rather just role play with some of the friends I've made in my time here. While I still do play medical from time to time I tend to head to Cryo if I'm not needed after the halfway point.

So I'd like to say I have at lest 800-1000 hours of experience with the medical department. This number also counting the concerning amount of time as assistant or other jobs that I've had to do surgery, save low blood slime people, and generally upsetting surgeons by breaking into the operating theaters to save people that they didn't know how to.

I think new crit is a kinda bad and my argument is going to fall into "It was fine how it was."

That and the "Just let them die and clone them." thing. I've never seen a doctor do this unless it was clear that medical was full of fuck ups and it's generally the only thing they can do. To be fair I did have a single assistant just ask me to kill and clone them in all my time playing. Just one.
That and on the other hand if I have a half rotted dead body I'm not going to try to revive it unless it's a vox or a slime. Mostly since I'm not going to spend half and hour fixing every septic limb while making the chems myself since the chemist chose to Make meth/ go SSD/ not know how chemistry works/ just not work and take up a chemist slot/ fuck around in the bar/ ect ect. or put them in a different body mostly since half the server goes to cryo when the admemes use the "Race changing" Viruses and not getting to play the race you want to play as is kinda meh. I know it can lead to some fun "oh fuck I was vox but now is human" RP but it's definitely a last resort thing for me.

But I will fight tooth and nail to fix broken limbs, internal bleeding, and other things that cause people to die in the operating room. Mostly since I want plasmeme at some point I know how shitty it is to die 10 mins into the round and watch medical just toss you in the morgue/ not know how to fix you/ gib you with SR/ try to clone you since they can't tell the blue thing is a robot. Dying is not fun. It's frustrating, but dying and staying dead due to the incompetence of others is far far more frustrating.

Making death more impactful sounds a lot more like "making it more frustrating to die." When you're the one dying. Sure fun things can come from dying and you're bound to die at some point but you're also bound to die from the stupidity of others antag or not. A good example is a first round janitor tossing a cleaning grenade to clean just as you happen to be running from a giant ass scary spider. Dumb stuff like that happens and I'd much rather not have a mixture of the existing incompetence of medical and the... lets call it controversial new crit system keeping me from being a farty space man.

I'd say play more medical before you even think of changing medical. Same thing can be said for races too. Play slime before you even think of changing slime. Since if... lets say I've only ever seen you play three times and each time you where inactive and only an assistant I'm going to have a few harsh words when you try to tell someone who plays mainly medical how medical works. I mean... who are you to tell me how to balance IPC, Medical, Slimes, Plant peoples, ect ect if you don't even play them?

Edited March 12, 2019 by Benjaminfallout

[Regular Joe]

The cloning getting used too much -thing was something that was feared to happen with the newcrit - at least in this topic - so yeah that is not so now. Regarding to that, in the new issue of newcrit that seems no more of concern, since there is reviving defibs again and also more ways to counter the shock - for what I've lurked the github. Concerning experience, just saying on my behalf, since I'm not that nerd, yet being the noob writing in this company, that I wrote around for pure interest on the topic, not thinking of being the one who knows how to make roosters lay eggs (a Finnish proverb) ie tell anyone how to run medbay, or a hennery.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Regular Joe

[SkeletalElite]

Rather than having a sickness symbol on people with cardiac faliure or arrest can we get a unique med hud icon for people in these states. Ideally a seperate one for each.

[Cole_Wilds]

2 minutes ago, SkeletalElite said:

Rather than having a sickness symbol on people with cardiac faliure or arrest can we get a unique med hud icon for people in these states. Ideally a seperate one for each.

I could see cardiac arrest being a red heart with an exclamation mark in it, and cardiac failure being a black heart.

[Pckables]

Since there hasn't been much discussion on the updated new crit, i'll give my two cents.

I'm liking the updated new crit a lot. It's still very manageable to treat with the right tools, and still possible to stabilize people without. It even gave a slight buff to vampires as their Rejuvenate+ can now heal them out of hardcrit with no complications. Most of my complaints were with people not understanding the system rather than the system itself.

Seems a lot of complaints are still centered around it being impossible for people to fully kill someone with brute alone. There might need to be a sort of "Ground Execution" system that can be done on people at -100 or lower so antags/spiders can actually finish off their victims rather than wait 2 minutes for them to suffocate.
That or have ~300 points of brute+burn cause instant death.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Pckables

[RadiantFlash]

Coming back to this with the updated PR of New Crit. I like the idea way it functions from medbay's side, having played as a doctor a few times now and  having defibs actually work the way they did before is a major plus.
Unfortantely their doesn't appear to be much of  differance in staring at a blackscreen white white edges, Versus being conscious, staring at people mutely due to oxyloss meaning you can't speak, and collapsing repeatedly, helplessly due to shock/cardiac issues. Atleast, when it comes to patient care in medbay.

I want to say for these changes to function well with the rest of the server's interacting systems, 3 things need to be considered.

1:Time spent in medbay. While giving medical something neat to do is nice and all, and making the medical system more indepth is awesome, I think we need to take in consideration how long we want people to be in medicals care. Each round is 2 hours, and how long do we want the average spacemans to be undergoing treatment?

2: How the new system affects combat within SS13. I honestly can't even begin to describe how much the new system really affects this. Antags are more or less unable to kill someone quietly, within a small time frame due to new crit. Whether you live or die, is now entirely RNG based as well, based on how fast you get treatment, before shock/cardiac issues kick in.

3 Medbay as an actual map. It's... way to small, honestly. the OR's are usually busy with new Crit, and theres not nearly enough room to treat the amount of people coming in, since you have to spend more time treating them. I really think the treatment area needs to be bigger, and maybe add a 3rd Operating room? 
3b: This ties in with the map size, but more doctors slots would probably also help, considering how swamped medical is now with fixing people.

[runefallen]

Is this like the net neutrality campaign where the public had to keep fighting it over and over until they were worn down enough for it to just happen?

 

I hope not.

[Calecute]

Unfortunate example on net neutrality since the public is actually on the wrong side of the issue. 

[farie82]

My opinion about new crit didn't really change much since the last few PR's about it.

1. People don't go down anymore in combat. You have to stun them or just fuck them up so badly that they drop. Meaning killing is needed more. I've seen people (myself included) stand up after getting shot 5 times with buckshot. I stood up after getting bit 20 times by terror spiders just to get bitten 20 times more before I finally died. Last one is fixed by a snowflake way as far as I know.

2. The idea of having a chance to walk away from danger when you're dying is not happening. If you're fucked up it means you're either in combat or you're in space. In other words you will die. And screaming for help won't work due to the oxygen loss you have.

3. It make medbay slightly more complex. But at the same time it's just a few more steps which will bottleneck medbay. Chemistry is not needed due to the vendors being stocked up fully. And if you don't have them stocked up fully then medbay will fall down due to the fact that most chemists can't keep up. 

4. For antags it's a pain as well. If you get out alive in combat you will die after. First you just had to get surgery. Now you just die from shock or something. Making antagging much harder. Same goes for being an officer.

All in all I don't think it adds possitive things to the game as a whole. It's more tedious now mostly and dead feels random due to the RNG nature of shock, heart failure and heart attacks. (triggering is random but weighted on the damage).

[necaladun]

42 minutes ago, farie82 said:

My opinion about new crit

1: - 5 buckshot hits really should drop someone. Otoh, I dont' want people being stuck in perma-crit unable to live or die, so that seems a value that should really be tweaked to get a happier medium.

2: - Walking away from a mortal injury shouldn't be easy, but possibly depending on circumstances. Reducing screaming for help I think is kinda good - if one person is repeatedly shooting you with a shotgun escape should be near impossible. 

3: - More complex medbay good. Vendors being able to replace chemistry bad. Less stuff in vendors but make stuff easier on chem?

4- A few extra antag items like the bone repair stuff, but for shock, might be nice for that? Really, antags shouldn't be able to walk away from too many "lethal" hits, but still have some room for error.

Random death I think helps a bit, to make things less...reliable. I dont' want peopel to think "i just got shot once by a shotgun i'll be fine."....but I don't want it to be a death sentence either.

You're pretty good at the coding sides of the farie, so I'd like your opinion on how to tweak all those values and by how much.

[Eler00]

On the '5 buckshot hits don't drop someone' issue, I've been thinking we could set health thresholds where you are guaranteed to go to the next stage. Something like...if at -200 health or less, you have 100% chance to go into shock, at -400 health heart attacks have 100% chance to occur, etc. So basically take the current odds but dial them way up at certain threshold values.

[Fursamie]

4 hours ago, necaladun said:

3: - More complex medbay good. Vendors being able to replace chemistry bad. Less stuff in vendors but make stuff easier on chem?

Chemistry is a very powerful tool in the hands of the right people, I don't think it would be a good idea to make it "easier".
Cue traitor chemist with a chemical meth implant, black powder bombs, heparin, sarin and cyanide mix syringes in a rapid syringe gun

[farie82]

4 hours ago, TDS said:

On the '5 buckshot hits don't drop someone' issue, I've been thinking we could set health thresholds where you are guaranteed to go to the next stage. Something like...if at -200 health or less, you have 100% chance to go into shock, at -400 health heart attacks have 100% chance to occur, etc. So basically take the current odds but dial them way up at certain threshold values.

More like that. In game design it's a big no no to make things relly to much on RNG. A bit of RNG is fine to spice things up but the system currently relies to much on RNG to make it work.

8 hours ago, necaladun said:

You're pretty good at the coding sides of the farie, so I'd like your opinion on how to tweak all those values and by how much.

Thanks . I will try to thinker of some ways to improve the system when I got some more time. 

[farie82]

Having played a bit more and thought about it.

From the normal crew perspective (security and antags mostly)

1. The RNG needs to go or at least be reduced. People can stand up at random or just die instantly. This makes the game feel unfair and random. Which it is.

2. Have a set damage threshold at which point people die guaranteed. Once again. People won't die or go down, making it extremely annoying if you unload a full clip into somebody and they keep happily walking around disarming you.

3. The system is still quite incompatible with the existing systems. Take no breath from genetics. Unless it changed without me seeing it. You will be immune to most damage that the new crit system does. Take self resp and mind restoration from virology. These make it so that people stand up even more. Even though they are far over the -200 health mark. I know how genetics is dealth with and I don't want virology to undergo this fate as well. 

From medbays perspective:

1. Chemistry is quite useless due to the fact that the vendors are stocked to the brim with meds. Reducing the amount of stuff in there will help make chemistry relevant again. Although this would also mean that medbay is heavily reliant on chemistry. Even more so than before new crit and such.

Other than that I don't know. The system mostly feels as extra annoying steps mostly for all sides. It doesn't work with the existing systems and changing them requires a lot of work and will most likely lead to a nerf or worse... removal of stuff without adding new features.

My to go to thing would still be revert but well that won't happen. And fixing the points above here would just mean going back to old crit but with heart attacks being more common.

[Calecute]

I like the RNG, i think it lower the skill ceiling, and makes for more interesting stories. 

[Slith-Skaar]

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1. The RNG needs to go or at least be reduced. People can stand up at random or just die instantly. This makes the game feel unfair and random. Which it is.

Completely agree here, there seems to be way too much RNG involved when handling combat scenarios. I've been in cases when I was constantly whaled on by FOUR cultists, three with burning tomes, and one with a sword, which had removed my heart and lungs. My entire health doll was red. I was still able to stand because I didn't roll for shock. This feels incredibly unrealistic in many aspects.
Another case is I have been hammered by a holoparasite as an officer,  fairly recently too, while on fire, for about a minute straight. Rolling shock despite being in constant negative health seems too be too inconsistent or unrealistic.
This is one of my key dislikes to the "Newcrit".

Quote

2. Have a set damage threshold at which point people die guaranteed. Once again. People won't die or go down, making it extremely annoying if you unload a full clip into somebody and they keep happily walking around disarming you.

I'll just refer to my previous statement, the amount of scenarios people have been in, bombing runs, fires, slash-fests.. people should have died in these scenarios but because of the lack of damage cap and reliability on braindeath is very high, it just really don't work for most antagonists sadly.

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1. Chemistry is quite useless due to the fact that the vendors are stocked to the brim with meds. Reducing the amount of stuff in there will help make chemistry relevant again. Although this would also mean that medbay is heavily reliant on chemistry. Even more so than before new crit and such.

This is a huge issue here that one core job is made redundant due to recipe removals and restocking of medvendors. All chemistry is in the current form is a Strange Reagent shop or Cryoxadone Cabin, don't really need much else apart from maybe Mitochloride.
Vendors need a drastic nerf in my honest opinion.

As much time and effort that is put into "NewCrit", I don't think it fits in a mediumRP server. The previous health and crit system was perfect in my honest opinion, simple but effective and gets the job done.

[Rurik]

After playing through it a bit more and being able to form a real opinion about it, oddly enough even though I thought I would, I don't mind it that much. The damage some of them can take with good rng is silly, takes me a bit out of it from a rp/atmosphere standpoint, but whatever. This has never been a realistic game by any means, and "muh realism" is never and will never be an argument, though I still do like things that promote immersion.

On 4/11/2019 at 8:52 AM, farie82 said:

4. For antags it's a pain as well. If you get out alive in combat you will die after. First you just had to get surgery. Now you just die from shock or something. Making antagging much harder. Same goes for being an officer.

 

On 4/11/2019 at 9:38 AM, necaladun said:

4- A few extra antag items like the bone repair stuff, but for shock, might be nice for that? Really, antags shouldn't be able to walk away from too many "lethal" hits, but still have some room for error.

It's not as much of a pain as I first thought, since if you can treat the underlying damage shock usually cures itself, and failure can be cured by the emergency autoinjector most of the time (in my experience). When it comes to antags I still feel the bone breakage of arms, feet, legs, ruptured lungs, or internal bleeding will continue to be the biggest ends of an antag run. That's not to say cardiac failure won't play a role of course.

Changelings can treat cardiac arrest, failure, and shock via Anatomic Panacea (which makes it a must buy imo) and can treat bone breakage through entering stasis once in a safe place.

Traitors get nanocalcium, which used to be overpriced but I believe it got a price reduction recently, with no item to treat cardiac failure. Normally I'd argue nanocalcium and a hypothetical item to treat cardiac failure wouldn't be used since you tend to need a full 20 tc build on other items to complete the two objectives and live without the use of memechems. However with only one objective now, it gives a lot of wiggle room with TC to buy items like that. 

Vampire gets nothing for both save for the extremely overpriced (and rightly so since monkey cheese is somehow still a thing) enthrall ability where they can try and get a doctor and slave them for treatment. While that can work, using enthrall with security actively chasing you, broken bones/cardiac failure, and having limited blood (if not monkey cheesing) is just not quite realistic. Can be done, sure, but can't really count on it to save you in a tough spot even if you can meet the 300 blood to use the ability since time and the doctors ability always take a role (not to mention isolating a doctor and not have another run in and say "why are you healing this known vamp" etc).

TL;DR: Adding in an ability for vamp to cure themselves of cardiac arrest/failure, such as making fully powered rejuvenation also cure a stage of cardiac failure, and if at the first stage completely removing it, would be good. For traitor, probably a box of extra emergency autoinjectors or something along that line of thought to also treat cardiac failure would be beneficial.