Remove Telescience

[Dinarzad]

I still stand by every argument I've made thus far as to why I'm against removing this.

Furthermore, I'm gonna put out there that this feels like it's "Looking for reasons" to remove a system.  That bad experiences were had, so some people want it on the chopping block, that it has little to nothing to do with it being "Overpowered" in actuality.  Because the facts don't add up, especially when a fix to the proposed issues was put forward and subsequently ignored.  The problems proposed have been corrected and debunked several times an the legitimate ones have had a proposal put forward to fixing them, but apparently nuking this is just the only way to be sure for some reason.  That doesn't seem like "Balancing" an OP system is a goal to me, that seems like it's about removing one that's made people upset because they happened to be on the bad side of it, those few rare times a month it happens.

I'd respect this idea a lot more if it came across being honest with ourselves.  If we wanna say "Hey, we just don't like this system, we think it's not fun. We don't think how it works is fun and that it can't be made fun in it's current form."  Then I'd at least respect the honesty put forward, because that's just as valid a reason to propose something's removal as anything else.
But this? Saying it's "Because it is too strong" ? This feels like we're looking for "Boogey-man" situations to emphasize how secretly OP the barely used system is and trying to use those outlier rare circumstances as justification that the entire thing is broken.  Because the majority of arguments made in favor of removing this system are grounded mostly in anecdotal evidence or are assuming that a LOT of variables line up perfectly to make telescience this unstoppable god of death, and the facts simply don't match that accusation.
  It is factually easier, faster and simpler to do a lot of spooky antag things by hand, then it is through telescience. It is easier to dispose of bodies unless you happen to specifically be an antag scientist and telesci is already set up, and saved coordinates to space to use in just this sort of rare circumstance, which the vast majority of players do not have.  It is far easier to dispose of targets with any number of science weaponry or antag specific weaponry, it is impossible to use telescience to do mass bombings unless you are, specifically An Antag Scientist with Hijack due to the nature of server rules.  That is a lot of variables that have to line up for it to be worth the effort or in the case of bombings, even allowed.

When it comes to blobs and rogue AI, AI do have a problem, that's true.  AI also have a means to counter it via cyborgs and sabotaging APCs, but it's still true that it's a hard counter so to speak. Blobs however, unless you know the precise coordinate location of the core, dropping a bomb in, is liable to kill as much crew as it is blob, and you can't exactly drop in a max cap even then, you will not be looked at kindly icly, oocly or from administration. So we're talking precision, pin-point blob execution and that is not as easy or feasible as it sounds, not compared to just massing flashbangs, X-rays and mechs.

The facts of the matter are that any proposed issues made against telescience thus far exist in multiple game systems right now, and there's not a single peep about them.  I bring up Chemistry a lot in comparison to this because for every single complaint of "I could get a bomb dropped right on me and die instantly and there's nothing I could do about it."  there's a dozen more complaints related to hellmixes and memechem formulas where one application of a spray bottle or one click of a syringe gun is instant death.  For every complaint of telescience stealing victims from antags away, there's a dozen more accounts of Virology basically patenting immortality and distributing it to the crew/command/security.   None of those departments are removed. They get changed, they get tweaked, but we never even dream of removing them, I wouldn't want them removed.  Virology has the worst of it right now, but that's because a major system change is more what staff are looking for (Swapping to /tg/ virology if I recall discussions correctly.)  But it still is not removed. A proposed tweak to fix the problems of stealing items easily has been made, why is that being overlooked?  We've made far more sweeping changes for far less issues before but adding a single new "Jammer" item or using the no teleport flag or combination of both is a bridge too far?

So I'm again going to ask, because I've never really been answered on the topic.  What is the difference here? Why is it perfectly fine for those systems to have outliers where they can be potentially extremely powerful, but Telescience is just a bridge too far?  What makes 1 click deaths from a spray bottle any better then 1 click deaths from a console, when they are far, far fewer in number and farther between then those other systems everyone is seemingly okay with?

[Jazz]

Yea, I mean people comment saying "telescience is more often used to send bombs across the station" but is it really? Have you really seen somebody actually in game with your own eyes seen someone teleport a bomb across the station? Because I haven't personally. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to niche of an activity for any old antag to robust with it. You really have to know what your doing, and most people aren't up to par. I'd argue its easier to robust with chemistry rather than telescience.

[Jazz]

 

[procdrone]

Adding telescience jammers sound like a solution to me. Antag would have to go to extra lenght to disable said jammers to do any harm, and while doing so, could be found out and caught.

[Ninjack_Aus]

Honestly, jammers do sound great, similar to goons adventure zone (The only real reason to use telescience their due to the short round times) Although I rarely see telescience even used nowadays.  I honestly just ignore it as the only person who can use it incognito is the scientist, and they have plenty of other antag methods such as chemistry bombs or the aforementioned blue space weaponry.