The Issues with Vulpkanin (They Make No Sense)

[HugoLuman]

The reason they're not around sooner is that they hadn't discovered FTL spaceflight yet. There really is no need to have yet another pre-space race that NT supposedly helped. And again, extremely similar to the Tajaran lore there.

[Medi]

1 minute ago, HugoLuman said:

The reason they're not around sooner is that they hadn't discovered FTL spaceflight yet. There really is no need to have yet another pre-space race that NT supposedly helped. And again, extremely similar to the Tajaran lore there.

Then they're in our modern age as far as it is concerned for technology. It's completely workable.

[HugoLuman]

No like, they still got colonies on other planets by the time they meet the rest of the galaxy, but they didn't yet have the means to travel to other star systems. They (As in the government of their system, not the species as a whole) basically have a tension between wanting to explore the galaxy and being wary of too much contact to avoid being annexed by anyone.

Edited April 18, 2019 by HugoLuman

[Medi]

24 minutes ago, HugoLuman said:

No like, they still got colonies on other planets by the time they meet the rest of the galaxy, but they didn't yet have the means to travel to other star systems. They (As in the government of their system, not the species as a whole) basically have a tension between wanting to explore the galaxy and being wary of too much contact to avoid being annexed by anyone.

Fair enough, that really doesn't change to much so it's extremely workable.

[BryanR]

Just to axe the chocolate should be poison for Vulpkanin, because why not they're dog peoples, chocolate is poisonous to everyone the reason why dogs are more affected than humans is the component theobromine which humans can metabolize more quickly than dogs, meaning it builds up to toxic levels within dogs more quickly than humans, and also the ratio of chocolate ingested to body mass, larger dogs consume more chocolate than smaller breeds before suffering ill effects. Biology of Vulpkanin isn't necessarily a mirror of canines and it could easily be that they metabolize chocolate in an entirely different way, hell for all we know about how Vulpkanin metabolize theobromine it could heal them or give them super powers.

Even if they were human sized dogs, because of body mass alone they would have to ingest a greater amount of chocolate than what a person realistically would or would have to each chocolate frequently enough to reach that critical level of toxicity.

So yeah, adding it for anything other than "Lol they're dog people" doesn't make any amount of sense what so ever, hell it'd even be a stretch if they were "Lol dog people."

[Medi]

So, new list of suggestions:

- Update the wiki to reflect the following:

   1. Non-FTL space capabilities with moderate reflectance to explore outside of the system. Terraforming capabilities present and used.

   2. Revise anatomy to reflect finding noted. Blood vessels in ears are not necessary, single eye colorblindness as it would mean we wouldn't have to change anything, still debating the chest but I see nothing wrong so long as we elaborate on the organs (not for damage reasons), ability to eat raw meat, stronger liver, digigrade nature.

   3. Discuss culture to reflect society norms, etc.

 

- Potential in game updates?

   1. Digigrade would require a lot of changes to the point they'd have to start with feet wrap (already in game) and job specific footwear in their inventory or have a means of modifying it to allow for vulps to wear.

   2. Allow for the consumption of raw meat without penalty.

[KasparoVv]

The 'digitigradism' was removed from the game at some point for tajara and vulpkanin, before they used to need the toes cut out of certain boots or to wear sandals/wraps

[ZN23X]

1 hour ago, KasparoVv said:

The 'digitigradism' was removed from the game at some point for tajara and vulpkanin, before they used to need the toes cut out of certain boots or to wear sandals/wraps

This exactly.

If I recall, it was specifically removed as a QOL improvement just because it was an extra mundane mechanical step that needed to be taken by these races at the beginning of every round just to wear certain hand or footwear. Essentially while on paper this makes the race feel more unique, in game it doesn't.

Edited April 20, 2019 by ZN23X

[KasparoVv]

I feel like I was one of the few people who enjoyed that mechanic's existence and regret its removal. Stuff like that going away has always been disappointing to me.

Edited April 20, 2019 by KasparoVv

[Medi]

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

This exactly.

If I recall, it was specifically removed as a QOL improvement just because it was an extra mundane mechanical step that needed to be taken by these races at the beginning of every round just to wear certain hand or footwear. Essentially while on paper this makes the race feel more unique, in game it doesn't.

I frankly wouldn't mind it for at least the feet.

[Allfd]

Agree with FoS, KasparoVv, and Medi on all of this.

[Shadeykins]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:16 PM, FoS said:

Hello! As the original creator of the species it should be noted that none of the lore that has ever been posted for vulp was written by nor approved of by me. Even the name of the race wasn't intended to be what it is. Vulp got merged in too quickly when they weren't close to being finished and there was a sea of drama surrounding their implementation that lead to the choice to back off and let things settle as there was a chance they would be outright removed. I did not want to risk wasting time on something that was going to be slated for removal.

While I had no say in anything regarding the current lore and am unsure who all worked on it or why they made the choices they did I can at least comment on some of my intentions for the race and a bit of explanation on what my original goal was for them.

-neat ideas here-

You were given an extensive period (6 months) with constant requests for feedback on lore. Vulpkanin went without lore for about eight months initially because you refused to provide any input on the matter whatsoever despite having joint authority over it (you were even told a simple yes/no to the proposed lore would have sufficed--there was three different lore documents floating around at the time as well).

You declined to give any feedback after being asked on four separate occasions by myself, by Flattest at least two or three times (to my knowledge), and by headministration once or twice at the time.

A lore team was later established which you also did not apply for or offer any feedback. The new revised lore produced by the lore team was then announced publically at multiple junctures (five times to the community) for feedback to be given. The lore then sat for another six months during a feedback period where we were actively collecting input from members of the community and people who were interested in the lore (quite honestly anyone was welcome to provide input and spitball at this time).

You didn't give any feedback/input at this time either.

Quote

Ultimately people who were uninvolved with the creation of the race made their own lore without any idea of what the original plan/goal was for them. It was just people being particularly unwilling to wait for the dust to settle and pushing their own ideas through and now we're stuck with it. I honestly just ignore vulp lore because I find it really silly and boring.

People wanted your feedback on the lore and actively tried to include you in the process.

I am glad you've actually stated a few of your original ideas (they're valuable if the lore gets revised again), but this is an incredibly unfair statement to anyone who worked on it. People repeatedly tried to involve you in the process and framing it as though you were patently glossed over is completely untrue.

If you--as the creator of the species--write something, I can guarantee you that it would be incorporated.

As for lore discussion, it's always welcome; idea generation is valuable. The only thing to keep in mind is that lore mirrors mechanics, not the other way around. This is probably the biggest reason why none of the lore is terribly bold or adventurous for the species as nobody wants to implement active contradictions between the lore and the game server.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Shadeykins
Spacing.

[Medi]

@Shadeykins @Kyet Any decisions on this?

[Kyet]

I don't think they (or other species) necessarily need to conform to our understanding of biology.

They're aliens.

Not just that, but they're aliens in a sci-fi game.

A soft sci-fi game, at that.

 

I'm also not keen on making them take more brute damage, since brute is the most common damage type, and it would be a major and likely unpopular nerf to them to do that.

 

 

[Medi]

49 minutes ago, Kyet said:

I don't think they (or other species) necessarily need to conform to our understanding of biology.

They're aliens.

Not just that, but they're aliens in a sci-fi game.

A soft sci-fi game, at that.

 

I'm also not keen on making them take more brute damage, since brute is the most common damage type, and it would be a major and likely unpopular nerf to them to do that.

 

 

Thankfully, I am more than open to compromise as my last suggestion didn't even really mention keeping the brute damage as a thing. Really, what I am suggesting is more lore for their race, some elaboration on practical anatomy, and potential changes to perhaps how they wear shoes in game (I know that one would be a more uphill battle.)

I think it's a bit of a mistake to, as I said earlier, leave them labeled as a 'dog person' and not elaborate on them because of either the nature of the game or because we don't find reason to do so. Yes they are alien, yes they are strange, but adding in lore only makes the characters more believable and on a server that endorses RP that's part of the necessary backbone.

There are a few species such as IPCs, Vox, etc that play extremely differently then humans. People play those species for the reason that they are different and offer a unique experience to how they approach the gameplay from both an RP standpoint and a technical one. Leaving the Vulps (and to an extent the other races) being pseudo humans just makes it less appealing given that there are more fleshed out races with lore and such to choose from.

 

So on a station that promotes RP, even in a soft sci-fi setting, making the species more detailed and believable makes sense from a core gameplay perspective.

[Kyet]

I don't generally touch lore stuff. I don't really mind what the lore contains as long as it isn't used as a justification for un-fun gameplay.

I consider lore that requires certain races to snip the fingers off their gloves / ends off their shoes to be un-fun gameplay. I don't think it adds anything that helps define the race as alien or interesting. All it does is add a tedious task that players of that race have to do regularly.  "Unique" is NOT necessarily valuable or interesting.

 

[Medi]

Just now, Kyet said:

I don't generally touch lore stuff. I don't really mind what the lore contains as long as it isn't used as a justification for un-fun gameplay.

I consider lore that requires certain races to snip the fingers off their gloves / ends off their shoes to be un-fun gameplay. I don't think it adds anything that helps define the race as alien or interesting. All it does is add a tedious task that players of that race have to do regularly.  "Unique" is NOT necessarily valuable or interesting.

 

True, however, too little uniqueness and it creates a logical question of: "Are these two things different?" I personally dont see it as a tedious task but as something that inherently is a core disadvantage that can be easily worked around. If you want to balance it out, make them slightly faster (like 1-2%) as it would make sense on multiple levels and would also be a good way to balance out the issues with changing footwear (which is something I rarely do during a shift anyway unless I'm equipping mag boots or something, thus my spawn shoes are usually fine.)

[Kyet]

It isn't possible to make them 'slightly' faster. Speed operates in step increments. Even changing the value slightly can make a large difference. There is no way to change the value just a little bit.

Ideally, I would like vulps (and all other races) to have some unique mechanics that make them genuinely interesting to play. Diona for example have slow speed but regenerate, which makes them different to play in an interesting way.

Unfortunately, most mechanical suggestions for tweaking races (including vulps) are either technically unworkable, or undesirable for design reasons, or both.

It is actually really hard to come up with an idea for tweaking vulps (or any other race) that most people would truly agree is an improvement.

 

[Medi]

8 minutes ago, Kyet said:

It isn't possible to make them 'slightly' faster. Speed operates in step increments. Even changing the value slightly can make a large difference. There is no way to change the value just a little bit.

Ideally, I would like vulps (and all other races) to have some unique mechanics that make them genuinely interesting to play. Diona for example have slow speed but regenerate, which makes them different to play in an interesting way.

Unfortunately, most mechanical suggestions for tweaking races (including vulps) are either technically unworkable, or undesirable for design reasons, or both.

It is actually really hard to come up with an idea for tweaking vulps (or any other race) that most people would truly agree is an improvement.

 

I would be interested to see what people thought about Just shoes for Vulps but adding in another mechanic like them being able to eat raw meat, or something, safely. I already discussed why they could do that.

[Happy Tim]

@Kyet

What about making their smell sense stronger and acting as a sort of air analyzer?

Also them not getting grossed out by corpses or foul smells? 

[Kyet]

1 hour ago, Medi said:

I would be interested to see what people thought about Just shoes for Vulps but adding in another mechanic like them being able to eat raw meat, or something, safely. I already discussed why they could do that.

Being able to eat, say, raw meat, but chocolate making them sick, might be interesting. Taj and whatnot can already eat mice, so it would be consistent.

Making their sense of smell stronger would also be neat, though it would have to be of limited usefulness.

 

[Medi]

35 minutes ago, Kyet said:

Being able to eat, say, raw meat, but chocolate making them sick, might be interesting. Taj and whatnot can already eat mice, so it would be consistent.

Making their sense of smell stronger would also be neat, though it would have to be of limited usefulness.

 

For the sake of compromise:

1. Allow for the Culture, Anatomy, and Lore updates to Wiki (or at least advocate that to whoever does get to change these things).
2. Consider allowing them to eat raw meat (iffy on the chocolate thing but I can go either way with it).
3. Consider polling for some public opinion on certain abilities and disabilities for races so we can see what people are actually interested in (if anything) and we can play the genetics balancing act associated with it relatively easily while making the public happy, making things dynamically different, and potentially making the changes easy and controllable for admins.

[Kyet]

1. I'm neutral on lore. It isn't my domain.

2. I'm fine with that, but I'm probably not going to code it myself.

3. I'm too busy to poll currently (distracted with technical projects). Frankly I don't want the distraction right now. Maybe later.

[HugoLuman]

The question is finding something that people won't ask "Well why not Tajaran too."

[Medi]

1 hour ago, HugoLuman said:

The question is finding something that people won't ask "Well why not Tajaran too."

Cats and Dogs are similar but different. I can see some of this working for them but- To what extent?