Giving IPC's space immunity

[Cazdon]

Hello, I hope whenever you are reading this that your day has gone well. I plan on writing a long post, detaling my reasons, and as such I'll leave a TL;DR at the bottom for anyone that just wants the gist of it. With that out of the way, let's get into it.

 

Disclaimer

As the title says, I'm proposing what seems like an extreme buff to a race that already enjoys a plethora of immunity's to some of the game's most lethal hazards. IPC's do not need to breathe, and suffer no oxygen damage, thus making them immune to many dangerous gases like N20 and C02. IPC's suffer no toxin damage. IPC's are immune to all diseases. IPC's are immune to radiation. IPC's cannot be infected by White Terrors, or Facehuggers. IPC's are immune to pain. IPC's cannot suffer eye damage from welders, freeing up an eye or helmet slot. IPC's are extremely easy to repair and perform surgery on, needing only general tools that can be found all over the station, as opposed to the specialized tools and chemicals. IPC's can regain blood by chugging oil, bypassing the complexities of restoring blood in organics. IPC's cannot decay when being dead for long periods of time, and are just as easy to fix if the body was recovered in 5 minutes, or 40 minutes. Finally, IPC's can restore hunger from just about anywhere on the station from an APC, and do not have to find time to visit the kitchen like many other species. It probably sounds ungrateful or even greedy that on top of all of these amazing benefits, I would ask for another immunity on top of all of this, and a pretty big one at that.

 

By now it should be no secret that I am extremely biased in favor of IPC's, doubly so if you recognized the name Torque. I wanted to lay out all of the benefits I enjoy every round as an IPC player, and make it clear that I do not take those benefits for granted. IPC's get to shrug off some of the most chaos inducing events on the station, like massive viral outbreaks or radiation storms. IPC's have the extreme conveniences of built in welding goggles, as well as never having to breathe, the later of which I've gotten so used to, that several times OOC I forgot that my organic friends need internals before going EVA and have almost gotten them killed in the process. Yet perhaps the greatest boon to IPC's is their extremely easy to fix nature, with the most extreme example I can think of is coming back to life after 40 minutes of being webbed up in a terror spider nest that eventually got cleared out. All of these benefits make IPC's extremely fun to play on a mechanical level, and these conveniences have genuinely made me shy away from choosing other races. I say all of this to be open about the fact that I am extremely IPC biased. I will try my best to be fair about the whole situation, but this is ultimately the perspective of someone who has played IPC for 350+ hours, and it would be arrogant and dishonest to say I'm being 100% objective in my arguments, though I will try my best. Let's get into it.

 

Lore

While I believe the arguments regarding the Lore are the least convincing on either side of the argument, I still think they are worth mentioning, just to be complete. I haven't quite seen an 'official' explanation as to why IPC's are vulnerable to space but Cyborgs, Maintenance Drones, and even pAI's are immune. I understand that the chassis part of IPC is made on the cheap, and readily replaceable, leading to the extreme ease at which they can be destroyed. Yet the even cheaper Maintenance Drones and pAI's are completely immune to the hazard of low pressure and temperatures of space, and it leads to IPC's being space vulnerable being very awkward and immersion breaking. I don't know a lot about real world conditions in space, but seeing as how Satellites can have extremely thin antennas that work just fine in space, it feels odd and unrealistic that a machine would be slowly destroyed by lack of pressure. Not that the real world should have any true impact on our game with koi that swim through space and mice that can speak every language in the universe.

Now one could argue that considering the IPC's were originally designed to be what is essentially a slave race, with the disposable nature of a cyborg yet without laws restricting their creative thought, that the original creators designed them to be space vulnerable intentionally. Giving the IPC's a full strength Cyborg body would be too dangerous without laws, so they could have made a chassis that was intentionally easy to destroy, and one that could not escape into space to flee the subjugation. It would make sense to intentionally construct a chassis that cannot maintain itself in space to keep them in line. However, once the IPC's achieved freedom and independence, why would they keep this intentional defect in themselves? Why would they not build a more hazard proof chassis for themselves? And if we're talking IRC's in the 'modern day' when the game takes place, there would be no logical reason to keep the IRC's space vulnerable, as they are mechanically slaved to their masters. They would not need to be a fail-safe anymore, and lack of a space-proof IRC means you have a useless robot if you need anything done in EVA. Ultimately, I don't see a good 'In Lore' reason as to why IPC's start to 'die' in space. As far as IC interactions go, I either gloss over the fact completely like with SSD or Bugs happening, or chalk it up to 'the will of the space gods.' Neither is a very satisfying answer as to why IPC's need to have Hardsuits for space travel.

However, as I said I believe this is the least compelling argument in favor of either side. As far as I am aware, the lore is written to compliment the mechanics and rules in game, as opposed to lore being written, and then game mechanics being adjusted to fit that lore. I also don't see what's stopping the lore from being changed to better suit new mechanics or what have you. I could be wrong, I've only scratched the surface of the lore anyhow. So let's get into the real meat and bones of the argument.

 

Mechanics and Balance

 

Finding a place to start here is quite difficult, as there's a lot of mechanics, and a lot of roles for a player to take. So many in fact that I cannot speak to experience with a large amount of them despite the 350+ hours I have invested into IPC. Since there's so many factor's I'll start where I see myself using theoretical IPC space immunity, and trying my best to justify that. Most of that 350 hours has been spent in the engineering department, a department with no trouble accessing EVA gear. I believe my playstyle would stand the most to benefit from this buff. For both IC reasons and mechanical reasons, I like to not where a hardsuit, and instead opt for a hazard vest when there's no current EVA activity needed to be done. IC this is for the 'engineer look' of the hazard vest, and mechanically it is for the speed. The hardsuit cuts into your movement speed by a lot, making it something I don't wear when I can afford not to, for IC and OOC reasons. Yet I find most engineers opt to grab a hardsuit at round start, and never take it off for the entire round. This is mostly due to nature of engineering, as breaches can happen at a moments notice, and always being ready to quickly enter depressurizing areas is a huge benefit to have, and worth the speed penalty to many people. So the obvious question is why should IPC's get both the speed from a lack of a hardsuit, AND the space immunity of a hardsuit? I believe it comes down to why someone would pick a human or another organic race over IPC.

IPC's along with, I believe, Diona's and Slime People, are the races that do not experience New Crit. Now I'm no expert on New Crit, but my understand of it is that races with New Crit do not immediately lose consciousness upon reach 0 HP, and through a series of Dice Rolls, progress through stages of Shock and Cardiac Arrest. They may slip in and out of consciousness based on the roll of the dice, but can be conscious up until around a total of -200 HP is reached. I could be very wrong about the specifics here, as I said I'm no expert, but I believe I have the gist of the idea down. Now IPC's, Diona's, and Slime People all lose consciousness when they reach 0 hp, and must be helped by a second party to survive going into critical condition. Since I don't know New Crit well enough to gauge on average how long people can stay conscious, let's just assume our theoretical human loses consciousness at -100 HP, and our real IPC loses consciousness at 0HP.  On top of that, our IPC takes 1.5x the damage from Brute and Burn damage sources, arguably the most common two types of damage in the game. This put the 'effective health' or the amount of damage you need to do to incapacitate a IPC at 66.7 damage, comparing that to the effective health of human, nearing around 200 HP on what I believe is a conservative estimate, there's an extreme imbalance in durability. However, I actually believe this is extremely appropriate, and even good to keep moving forward.

IPC's by their design mechanically, are not meant to be fighters at all. I don't agree with desires to have their durability buffed. IPC's are meant to have the durability of a wet cornflake. They can be punched to death, and it has happened to me  and this complete lack of durability is part of the IPC's identity mechanically. IPC's make for nice and easy antagonist targets too, due to the easy access many antagonists have to EMP. An inconspicuous flashlight that's only 2 TC for traitors. An AoE Shriek for changlings that leaves no chance of escape. Cultists that can present a slip of paper that instantly kills the IPCs. Let's not even mention Revenants. Even barring EMPs, the before mentioned 66.7 effective health means that even without an EMP it's gonna be a really easy kill. I sincerely believe this is a core part of the IPC identity. They are NOT fighters.

In exchange for the extreme ease of being robusted, IPC's are given that myriad of benefits I mentioned at the start of this essay. They are the single most convenient race to play. IPC's don't need to worry about welding goggles. IPC's don't need to worry about diseases. IPC's can 'eat' from almost anywhere on station. Etc. So why on top these should Space Immunity be added? It would be extremely mechanically fitting to the specialization of the IPC, which is their high amounts of utility. IPC's are made to shine for the duties of the crew. Considering IPCs can avoid so many of the problems that organic crew members get afflicted with, they end up being much more efficient at getting tasks done. Stopping and eating takes almost no time for an IPC where as organics have to make a whole trip to the kitchen. Disease outbreak? Organic crew members should get to medbay when they can, IPC's carry on. Etc. I believe adding space immunity on top of this would extremely fitting to the IPC's 'hyper convenience' toolset. Space proof IPC's would be a huge boon of convenience for themselves but also for other crew members. An IPC engineer means one less highly valuable hardsuit is taken from the limited supply, and a faster response time to fixing breaches. An IPC paramedic can immediately respond to a spaced body without having to report back to their office to put on a hardsuit. A bored IPC civillian can just space themselves and go on an adventure. This is of course for the average IPC, what about Security or Antagonist IPCs?

To be perfectly honest I do not know how this would effect security IPCs. I have never played one, mostly due to the fact they are not meant for direct combat, which security would see a lot of. I think maybe space-immunity would make Security IPC slightly less of a meme, and offer a bit more of a specialization for security teams. I don't think it would be overpowered, its just too easy to kill an IPC to have them following you into space being a huge deal, I imagine. Again however, I have no experience here. Antaging however I do have some experience with, and I must say, it would make an IPC antag a bit more of a threat, considering they would be able to move around at full speed on station and immediately bail out like a Vox if they needed. Though an Ion rifle shot ends an IPC antag so I sincerely don't think it would be a problem. If someone does think it would be overpowered by any means, please feel free to say why. I don't believe it would be at all, and I'd say at worst we could give the feature a test run and if it's too overpowered, then adjustments can be made.

Ultimately, I believe space-proof IPCs would be an extremely appropriate buff to the toasters. As far as I'm aware, when the New Crit feature was introduced, IPCs, Dionas, and Slime People received no changes while the other races received, 2 to 3 times the effective health of the Old Crit races. I have not played either Diona or Slime People, and I cannot speak for what changes might work for those races, and I wished to keep this purposed change as 1 dimensional as possible. I personally believe it would be most fitting to buff IPCs at what they are already good at, as opposed to trying to figure out an entirely new system that somehow keeps them on par with New Crit races. A buff to the utility of a race meant for high amounts of utility.

 

TL;DR

I believe IPC's should not be vulnerable to space. Not only does it not make any sense in the lore, it would make for an effective and appropriate buff to IPCs. The races that operate under New Crit have 2 to 3 times the effective health of an IPC. Rather than try to fix the lack of durability that is iconic to IPCs I purpose that IPCs should instead be buffed to become space-proof. I believe this would not effect the overall balance of combat and antagonists, but rather serve as another utility for IPCs, a utility that fits well with the overall high amount of conveniences IPC already trades for the ease at which they die.

 

Code

Due to my extreme bias I mentioned before, I would like this feature so much that I went in and coded it myself and made a Pull Request even. Here it is.

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/11672

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read all the way through if you did, I spent the whole day trying to get my thoughts into words and communicating them properly. I hope I did a good enough job. You all have a fantastic day.

[Lolzyking]

As a mainly IPC player I  have two issues with this.

 

A cheap karma race becoming space proof will be abused by grey tide.

 

This could be solved by giving IPC new crit,  and fixing it so CONSCIOUS mobs on the floor can still use items. Meaning in crit ipc's on the ground could attempt to patch themselves up before their oil leak kills them.

[BeanOS]

IPC: 15 Karma
Pro:
Low Karma Cost
Easy to repair and can be done so almost anywhere.
Can always be revived (as long as posibrain is found)
Easy to Implant
Immune to tox
Immune to Radiation
Immune to oxyloss
Welding eye damage immunity
Pain Immunity
Easy to sate hunger
Immune to implantation
Immune to negative viruses
Unaffected by most lethal chemicals
Decapitation isn't lethal
No bones to break (no aggregate damage)
Old Crit

Cons:
Half part durability
Easier to decapitate (causing blindness and hearing loss until replaced)
Killed by EMP
Immune to Positive Viruses
Mishandled by medical staff
Doesn't benifit from most healing chems
Can't recieve genetic augmentations

Neutral:
Comparable human space resistance
Pings/beeps

Now lets look at this in comparison to vox.

Pro:
Low Pressure Immunity
Cold Resistance (not damaged, still slowed)
Claw melee attack

Cons:
Requires internals (tox from oxygen)
Vulnerable to EMP
Bone Break Threshold reduced
20% increase in Brute Damage
60% Lower Alcohol tollerance
Cannot be cloned
Mishandled by medical staff

Neutral:
Medium Karma Cost
Good potential for RP
Quills/shriek

A vox's primary bonus is their ability to go into space without need for a suit, however they receive, in my opinion, one of the worst maluses for this (easier to break bones), along side a moderate 45 karma cost to acquire.
Giving IPC two thirds of the Pro's that a vox gets, without a number of additional con's (which would really kill off IPC), would be extremely unbalanced.

[Eler00]

Another pro of IPCs is they don't have blood so they are left alone by vampires.

[Spacemanspark]

IPCs have blood in the form of oil now. Vampires still can't go after them for it, but otherwise it's pretty similar to humanoid blood.

[MrMagolor]

14 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

IPCs have blood in the form of oil now. Vampires still can't go after them for it, but otherwise it's pretty similar to humanoid blood.

And it's much harder to replace, except for flat-out chugging an oil can, as there is no iron/salglu/etc. equivalent for them.

[quintaessentia]

In my opinion IPCs have a lot of potential, however i see this mostly unused. My main problem with this species is just that it looses a lot of game mechanics, such as the complex treating methods from medbay and several antag roles. Making it spaceproof too would just take even more mechanics away. I would rather love to see some interresting mechanics added to the IPCs. Because of the lack of antag roles (Vampires, Changelings, Shadowlings and Blobs too [i am not sure about the blob as i am new to the game, but i was told this by a mentor]) i would like to see a special antag role for IPCs, Cyborgs and Maintenance Drones. As an idea, that the conciouncess of this antag would be able to to jump between several electronic devices in sight (like vending machines and monitors) as well as taking controll of other synthetics, for a short periode of time, except for the AI. While in other bodys the antag could be easily destroyed by EMPs and that sort of stuff, or a special weapon. The overall goal of it would be to take control of the AI. I think of it more as an stealthy approach to antaging instead of an offensive one.

But thats just an idea, as this would take a lot of programming and balances. I would just love the IPC to be more then just easily repairable in exchange for more damage. Just give it more mechanics, i dont care if it are boons or maluses.

[Lolzyking]

19 hours ago, BeanOS said:

IPC: 15 Karma
Pro:
Low Karma Cost - is not a balancing factor
Easy to repair and can be done so almost anywhere. - not exactly true as IPC can suffer broken bones and dismemberments extremely easily which require surgeries now.
Can always be revived (as long as posibrain is found)
Easy to Implant
Immune to tox
Immune to Radiation
Immune to oxyloss - doesn't mean much with new crit allowing obscene oxyloss with no consequence
Welding eye damage immunity
Pain Immunity  -Doesn't mean much with old crit and bleed out.
Easy to sate hunger 
Immune to implantation  You mean parasitic right, because mindslaves/ect still work on em.
Immune to negative viruses
Unaffected by most lethal chemicals 
Decapitation isn't lethal
No bones to break (no aggregate damage) false
Old Crit  -This is a negative as new crit allows an extremely large window of survival when in crit and gives effectively 100+ extra effective health.

Cons:
Half part durability
Easier to decapitate (causing blindness and hearing loss until replaced)
Killed by EMP
Immune to Positive Viruses
Mishandled by medical staff
Doesn't benifit from most healing chems
Can't recieve genetic augmentations

Neutral:
Comparable human space resistance -False, with new crit humans last substantially longer in space than an IPC, especially once the ipc starts taking bleedout damage in addition to space damage.
Pings/beeps

Now lets look at this in comparison to vox.

Pro:
Low Pressure Immunity
Cold Resistance (not damaged, still slowed)
Claw melee attack

Cons:
Requires internals (tox from oxygen)
Vulnerable to EMP
Bone Break Threshold reduced
20% increase in Brute Damage
60% Lower Alcohol tollerance
Cannot be cloned -false, complicated stable mutagen surgeries exist, but result in a fully cloned body.
Mishandled by medical staff

Neutral:
Medium Karma Cost
Good potential for RP
Quills/shriek

A vox's primary bonus is their ability to go into space without need for a suit, however they receive, in my opinion, one of the worst maluses for this (easier to break bones), along side a moderate 45 karma cost to acquire.
Giving IPC two thirds of the Pro's that a vox gets, without a number of additional con's (which would really kill off IPC), would be extremely unbalanced.

 

[Abydos]

Lot of mis-communiation I'm seeing over what can and can't happen to an IPC.
 

Quote

Low Karma Cost - is not a balancing factor

Low Karma cost and giving them space humanity will just make everyone go IPCs. IPCs are more or less just humans but robotic.

 

Quote

Easy to repair and can be done so almost anywhere. - not exactly true as IPC can suffer broken bones and dismemberments extremely easily which require surgeries now.

This actually is true. IPCs do not suffer broken bones, instead, when their limbs take a certain amount of damage it causes a malfunction simulating broken bones. A quick welder / cable coil on the arm and it works as normal. And no, dismemberment of robotic limbs do not require surgery, you can easily slam an IPC on a table and reattach the limb by targeting the area and clicking on the person with you holding the limb. The only time an IPC requires surgery is when the damage is too great that a simple welder/cable coil job won't cut it.

 

Quote

Immune to oxyloss - doesn't mean much with new crit allowing obscene oxyloss with no consequence
Pain Immunity  -Doesn't mean much with old crit and bleed out.
Old Crit  -This is a negative as new crit allows an extremely large window of survival when in crit and gives effectively 100+ extra effective health.

New Crit only affects non-IPCs races. An IPC does not suffer from oxyloss or even any actual form of damage besides stamina when they lose oil. Only when they lose like 80-90% of their oil do they actually start to take damage. IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with.

IPC takes damage in old crit - They die.. welding and cable coiling their body, they come back to life.
Human takes damage in new crit - They die... you have to fix whatever damage they are suffering, defib them, then fix all the damage they took during new crit such as brain damage, organ damage, subject them to surgery multiple times incase they got all the internal stuff. Or throw them in cloning for 5 minutes.

IPCs have it easy compared to the damage others take and have to deal with.

-----

I see it a bit like this. We've already got 3 space resistant races:

Vox
 

They have cold and low-pressure immunity due to their background of being genetically designed and bread, to be the manual labor from whatever background they come from. Previously old Vox used to have insulation immunity as well, but that was too OP and got removed. Either way, the only bonus that Vox have is space immunity, but even with their cold / low-pressure immunity they still slow down to a crawl, Diona speed when they are in it without a space suit. They also take EMP damage, their bones are easier to break (A full 2-3 hits compared to 5-6 from other races), can't breath oxygen (So if their tank runs out or is stolen, they'll die), cannot be cloned (With monkey know how / stable mutagen, it's possible but still takes a lot of effort), not used to alcohol and take more from brute damage.

Diona
 

Diona cost no karma, have low-pressure, cold and pain immunity. They heal from radiation, and from light. So a Diona holding onto a flashlight can just space walk all they want. Their only downside is plant b-gone, no light = death, take more heat damage and very slow compared to everyone else (In space, that just flat out cancels out).

Plasmamen

They cost a full 100 karma, does not have / technically need blood, breath plasma from a tank like Vox, and have low-pressure and cold immunity from their suit. But if they take it off, they catch on fire.

Every single one of those races, have a downside. Vox have the immunities but take more damage and their bones are easier to break. Diona have the immunities but very slow to any threats and would die without any light. Plasmaman have the immunities but manage to take a certain thing, they'll die. And the other thing that connects them all is they are organics, they all have bones, suffer from poison, toxins, oxygen / nitrogen loss AND require surgery if they are very messed up. They can't hang out in space forever from all those conditions. If they get sick, ill, broken or such, they HAVE to return to the station.

But let's look at the IPC.

IPC

Immune to any and all viruses, both good and bad.
Immune to any and all toxin and radiation damage.
Immune to any and all oxygen loss, as they do not breath.
Immune to any and all pain as they are robotic machines.
Immune to any and all eye welding damage.
Immune to any and all genetic issues.
Easily repaired on the go, cable coil for burns, welder for brute.
Regains blood by drinking oil that Robotics / Chemistry can make in 20 seconds flat.
Recharge / Hunger from any APC.
Brain located in their torso, so taking off their head merely blinds / deafens them, which can easily be re-fitted back on.
Any limbs that are taken off, you can easily slam them onto a table and reattach it.
Any damage they take inside their bodies, you slam them on the table, screwdriver, crowbar, welder / cables, crowbar.
They also still use the old crit system, which means they actually live and survive longer with no downside compared to someone suffering from new crit damage.

Their only downside is, they take more damage 50%, EMPs are fatal (As you're taking like 30-50 damage on everything), easier to take their heads off and low blood incurs stamina damage.

So two IPCs run off into space, with a bag full of cable coil, and a bag full of welders. So long as they have a table / roller bed or can make one, they can infinitely repair each other, do surgery on each other and have no issues at all. All for the low price of 15 karma, compared to the free, 45 and 100 karma with downside races. It just sounds to me like, no offence to anyone at all, but IPC players are wanting more boons because "Oh theses races can be in space, why can't IPCs?"

Edited June 4, 2019 by Abydos

[Lolzyking]

What I mean is in Old crit you just go unconscious, in new crit you stay up in shock and have time to treat yourself or seek treatment or call for help. So many things currently 1 hit ipc into old crit, cause them to bleed from -EVERY- limb causing rapid oil loss, often just lose their head denying any chance to seek or call for aid.

 

 

Just so you know I'm not for space proof, I'm for IPC, Slime, and Diona changes that bring their durability more in line with new crit durability.

[MrRogueAce]

IPC's are welder flash immune? Then why does the flash still happen for my IPC?

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, MrRogueAce said:

IPC's are welder flash immune? Then why does the flash still happen for my IPC?

The flash happens but the eye damage does not. This is also true for Slimes, as they do not possess organs other then their core, so though the flash occurs, they have no eye organ that can be damaged and are essentially immune to welders in that way.

 

Quote

Their only downside is, they take more damage 50%, EMPs are fatal (As you're taking like 30-50 damage on everything), easier to take their heads off and low blood incurs stamina damage.

So two IPCs run off into space, with a bag full of cable coil, and a bag full of welders. So long as they have a table / roller bed or can make one, they can infinitely repair each other, do surgery on each other and have no issues at all. All for the low price of 15 karma, compared to the free, 45 and 100 karma with downside races. It just sounds to me like, no offence to anyone at all, but IPC players are wanting more boons because "Oh theses races can be in space, why can't IPCs?"

This is a hell of a state to say "The only problems they have are" to. 50% more brute/burn damage, the most common forms of death on the station, is nothing to scoff at, fatal EMPs are a means of instant death surpassing Metal Gear Plant-B-gone and bug spray because, unlike those 2 chemicals, EMP's can occur through walls.  It's why for a very long time IPCs in science were horrified to hear someone was fiddling with the Experimentor.  Oh and they still have to deal with "blood" an "broken bones".   Yes, they do still deal with that because of that cranked up brute/burn damage it is exceptionally easy to damage their limbs to a point they'll require Robotics surgery to repair and the downsides are EXTREMELY close if not identical to have a broken bone.  They are broken bones in all but name.

You also glanced over the myriad of other cons, like unable to benefit from healing chemicals or Genetics powers, you mentioned them very off-handedly within the pros section, they're not minor downsides, they're very real ones and it comes across as though you're trying to slip them under the radar or discount them, in addition to listing things that are not really perks as perks.

"Recharge / Hunger from any APC." 
This is not a perk.  This is a neutral side-grade to the omnipotent power that is chicken soup/hot chocolate, being able to easily replenish hunger from APCs is kind of moot when you can get a small can in your bag that takes you from starving to stuffed in about 5 clicks. Additionally, doing it from an APC drains the power, you can be a living power sink to some very vital areas if you're not careful. You can regen from a cyborg recharge unit, but there are not many of those and it's a long walk.  Hot Drink vendors are flippin' everywhere, there's at least 1 in every single department.
"Brain located in their torso, so taking off their head merely blinds / deafens them, which can easily be re-fitted back on." 
Is again, not a perk, but a side-grade.  3 toolboxes to the area that's hardest to miss and you have some major problems.  They survive decapitation, sure, but given that decapitation is hilariously easy to achieve, it really damn well better be.
"IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with." 
This is an objectively false statement.  New Crit enables people to survive in a critical state for laughable amounts of time, to the point some people rack up well over 400 points of damage before finally dying.  What you are referring to is ease of revival not the point mentioned about New Crit  (Which explicitly stated that people survive longer IN CRIT.  Coming back from the dead was not mentioned and it also isn't that hard, tedious, yes, hard, no.)
As for this "They can survive space if they have coils/welders" is just being silly. Sure. And so could humans if you just have a buddy with perflurodecalin, and some synthflesh or one of those genetics powers that IPCs can't get an some syndi-cakes.

Just because you preface major cons with "Your only downside" doesn't make those downsides any less intense. I mean if we analyzed Kidan an went "Well your only downside is not being able to wear extremely vital eyewear, I mean come on!"  That wouldn't make playing Kidan any more enjoyable (And there's a reason you barely see any.)  The benefits gained by IPC are nice, the Cons are also immense, downplaying that does no favors for anyone and is arguing in bad faith, but we also can't sit here an pretend like IPCs haven't gotten a nerf bat out of the blue in the form of suddenly having 'blood'.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Dinarzad

[BeanOS]

@MrRogueAce

The flash effect occurs, but they don't take any eye damage, so no amounts of flash will blind them.

@Lolzyking

8 hours ago, Lolzyking said:

No bones to break (no aggregate damage) false

Despite your statement of "false", it is actually true, limbs malfunction or come off, but it is nothing compared to broken bones, that tear up organs if not repaired, i.e. Aggregate damage, in upper/lower body or head, and have to go through a lengthy operations, performed by another person,for any body party, which can lead to more damage through accidents during surgery.

[BeanOS]

@Dinarzad

Don't get me wrong, I accept that IPC's have downsides, I listed the ones I was aware of off the top of my head, and I agree the oil bleeding and taking brute when in crit are pretty severe nerfs, which imo should be removed.

I personally consider old crit to be a boon over new crit, sure new crit allows you to "survive" for a greater length of time, but if you are away from medical, and aren't carrying a pharmacy in your pockets, you are very unlikely to recover, and revival of organics can be a drawn out process, which only gets more tedious with greater amounts of time spent dead.
It takes relatively little effort to repair an IPC out of crit, even from death, running into issues only if they have lost a lot of oil.

Adding pressure and cold Immunity to IPC will just Ramp up the number of people seeking them for mechanical advantages, and as I have stated on the PR, I would much rather have "upgrade" options available to IPC, that require tech levels, material cost and construction, much in the same way a borg is upgraded, instead of additional round start boons.

[Abydos]

33 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

"IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with." 
This is an objectively false statement.  New Crit enables people to survive in a critical state for laughable amounts of time, to the point some people rack up well over 400 points of damage before finally dying.  What you are referring to is ease of revival not the point mentioned about New Crit  (Which explicitly stated that people survive longer IN CRIT.  Coming back from the dead was not mentioned and it also isn't that hard, tedious, yes, hard, no.)
As for this "They can survive space if they have coils/welders" is just being silly. Sure. And so could humans if you just have a buddy with perflurodecalin, and some synthflesh or one of those genetics powers that IPCs can't get an some syndi-cakes.

I never once said anywhere in my post that IPCs can survive in space with cable coil and welder, it was an example of IPCs going out into space as mechanics or the like to loot places like the Syndie outpost and other dangerous areas that anyone else hurt in the area, would be forced to go back to the station.

But since you're mentioning the whole point of new crit, let's take into consideration that and pair the two together.

Organic / Human:
They first suffer from Shock, which can only be treated by Salin.
They then suffer from heart failure, which can only be treated by Epine and Atropine.
They then suffer heart failure, which can only be treated by defibbing.
Even if you get them above crit levels / 0 health, if they suffer from one of theses conditions, they will still take the effects which lead to death.

When an organic dies, you have 2 minutes to fix what they are suffering from / get them in the green, to then defib them. Even if you defib them, you then have to treat all of their conditions which include and not limited too:
1) Brain damage. When a person is in new crit for far too long, they take brain damage. Everytime you defib them alive but hadn't treated them, they take brain damage until they are brain dead / their organ is literally dead.
2) Internal bleeding. They'll lose blood every time you defib them and then have to take them to surgery
3) Dead / broken organs. Requiring surgery and mito.
4) Low blood. Self-saying.
5) Broken bones, also leading to organ damage from being moved about by doctors.
6) Missing limbs, requiring surgery to fix them back on. They may ALSO be dead and or broken / internal bleeding, which you'll NEVER know unless you examine it for dead, and put it back on the person to find out their issues.

And those are only the common symptoms, we haven't taken into consideration non-cloning races that require mutagen know how or SR which leads to a multiple of problems such as above. The only "plus side" that a lot of you keep saying is "New crit lets people survive in crit for a long time, that makes it too OP cause they get more health." They don't.. all that damage they rack up, does WORSE things to when they are revived.

IPCs:
Don't suffer from anything. Viruses, internal issues. The only thing they get is leaking oil, which requires just a welder / cable coil fix.
If they die, you cable / welder them and they pop back alive. No defibbing needed. An IPC could be dead for 30 minutes, you fix their damage, they pop back alive.
If they have broken part inside, you pop them open, welder/cable coil, close them up. Rarely, you'd need nanopaste which is laughably easy to get.
IPCs don't take any downside or side-damage to when they are in crit, they just take brute damage. No organ / inside damage like everyone else.
If they missing a limb, you place them on a table and just use the limb on them while having the damage zone selected. That's it.. no long surgery or other problems to do.

And you're making it out, that IPCs which are the most easiest race on the server to bring back to life and fix, is bad because "New crit gives other people more health. IPCs get oil now, it's not fair, I wanted to run around just welding / cable coiling myself.".

I'm still against IPCs gaining space immunity because not only does it not make any sense, it's just another boon on a race. Let's say they get space immunity, what happens? IPCs get a bunch of cable coil, welder and jump out into space to try and loot all the items for themselves. Or abuse mechanics to make it easier for them to break into areas and other things. All for "Well, new crit gives people more health and you nerfed us with oil, why don't IPC get boon?"

Edited June 5, 2019 by Abydos

[Gaty]

I see a lot of issues with the species, such as being easily instakilled by most antags (or someone with iron and uranium), not being able to play vampire or changeling or the fact that the bleeding mechanic is broken and does not solve the issue it tried to solve.

That being said, IPC being space proof, while making sense ICly, is a pro so powerful there are species with several downsides just to compensate that pro such as vox, dionas or plasmamen.

I would totally support a balance patch for IPCs where at least make them a bit more resistant to EMPs, requiring at least 2 of them to actually kill an IPC, but being space proof is not gonna solve any issues the race currently has neither is gonna balance it.

[Lolzyking]

Exactly, a balance patch to solve some of their issues in a new crit vs old crit survivability sense, slimes and diona changes should be considered too, currently slimes can throw themselves into and out of crit with limb fuck ups.

[Dinarzad]

10 hours ago, Abydos said:

And you're making it out, that IPCs which are the most easiest race on the server to bring back to life and fix, is bad because "New crit gives other people more health. IPCs get oil now, it's not fair, I wanted to run around just welding / cable coiling myself.".

Check the attitude at the door, please, don't put words in my mouth to make me sound like a tantruming child so that you can argue against non-existent points.

1:  New Crit is not OP. I never said it was, I would like for you to quote me the exact line where I said the words "This system is OP pls bufs."  What I did say was you are objectively wrong in IPCs surviving longer and better in Old Crit then new.  This is not only different, but is something not addressed, so let me tackle it here.
"IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with."
Saline-Glucose is incredibly common arounn the station, you get them out of Syndicakes. You can have Sal-Glu and Epi (emergency medipen) on your person at all times, that solves two or three stages of Shock right there, so unless you literally screw around so long in crit that you go into a cardiac arrest and require a defibrillator, you can postpone your state for incredible amounts of time with extreme ease.  Unless an antag is sitting directly on you and killing you, you have ample time to do emergency care, if you DO have an antag sitting on you, then it doesn't really matter if you're on old crit or new, you're very dead.  Even still you can sit in crit and be whapped on for such lengths of time as to have seucrity arrive and rescue you, I have not only seen this, I have done this and had it done to me.
Your claim is wrong. The math doesn't support it. It just doesn't.
I claimed you were putting a spin on things to prove a point, and this is exactly what I meant.  You glanced over all the perks of new crit to make things sound better then they are.
Yes. If a crew dies it can take a bit to repair them an get them back on their feet.  Except that literally half of the things on your list are handled via instantly applied chemicals which drastically cuts down on recovery time, the only things absolutely requiring surgery would be broken bones, internal bleeding and dead organs.  Damaged organs can sometimes be faster via surgery, but Mito is still an option if it's a particularly heavy moment and you cannot spare an operating room.  Missing limbs more often then not, get shipped to robotics and the surgery to put them on is like... 2 steps. It's really not a big deal.

You ever tried to fix a dead IPC? Particularly one killed by an EMP? Because they don't just die, they super-die.  Every single limb and organ takes damage, every single part of them needs surgical repair because the damage is almost always over the threshold at which they suffer 'Broken robot bones' and can no longer be repaired externally.  And unlike carbon crew, IPCs can't just be slapped on the face with a synthflesh patch or two an call it a done day for the external injuries you have to go into surgery for every. Individual. Limb.   Ask anyone who has played robotics for any length of time, the surgeries are not any harder then for human crew, but they sure do take a lot of time.  Additionally if someone is super fucked, you can clone them.  Unless they are a slime or a vox they can be cloned. Even plasmas can be cloned if you know what you're doing, though I suppose in fairness, most don't.  IPC, whether they have -800 damage or not, there's nothing to do but sit there and surgically mend every single limb and patch all the myriad of dents an dings.

Even more additionally, the claim was never New Crit was OP, but that you were ignoring the point, and the point was how long you can survive in it. This is, in essence, a buff to someone's "Effective HP"  they essentially have more then they had before, because now you can survive in the state for far longer then before, where IPC are in the same state they were.  This is a buff to any new-crit races, and it;s why there's been talk of slimes and IPC again in the first place.  Just because you keep adding "Well the only..." to a pro or a con doesn't matter. The amount of pros or cons literally doesn't ever matter, it is what those pros and cons are that matters, the merits of each.  If we gave plasmamen 7 down sides and gave them the "only" perk of being able to fart nuclear bombs that killed all antags on all Z-levels, I'd venture to guess that most people would say they were crazy OP whether or not they had only a single upside or not.

2: I'm making it out that way, because it is that way.  Any race operating on New Crit got a buff to effective HP, while IPC not only did not, but they're for some reason operating on blood that you can get from 2 whole places on station. Robotics, or Cargo.  You could get some from chemistry, but why Chemistry would have enough oil on hand to fix 'blood loss' for an IPC when it isn;t medical's job and oil is a necessary component in a lot of meds?  Which it is essentially blood loss, by the by so you can add "Blood loss" to things IPC are no longer 'immune' as it will kill them very dead if not handled.  The "Ease of repair" part of IPCs keeps fading more and more and yet, none of the "easy to break" part ever does. This seems just a touch silly to me and is not something to be glossed over.

3:  I literally, at no point in this thread or on Github, said IPC should get space immunity.  In fact, I can link you my exact reply on the git where I believe I said the words "I don't think IPC should get or need the ability to have immunity to space."  At no point in my reply was it mentioned. What I did mention was corrections to a myriad of highly biased argument points, and that they were highly biased argument points, because they were either ignoring key highlights of those features or were being very clearly spun in a manner that suited the narrative, rather then just being talked about objectively.

[Abydos]

6 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

Check the attitude at the door, please, don't put words in my mouth to make me sound like a tantruming child so that you can argue against non-existent points.

1:  New Crit is not OP. I never said it was, I would like for you to quote me the exact line where I said the words "This system is OP pls bufs."  What I did say was you are objectively wrong in IPCs surviving longer and better in Old Crit then new.  This is not only different, but is something not addressed, so let me tackle it here.
"IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with."
Saline-Glucose is incredibly common arounn the station, you get them out of Syndicakes. You can have Sal-Glu and Epi (emergency medipen) on your person at all times, that solves two or three stages of Shock right there, so unless you literally screw around so long in crit that you go into a cardiac arrest and require a defibrillator, you can postpone your state for incredible amounts of time with extreme ease.  Unless an antag is sitting directly on you and killing you, you have ample time to do emergency care, if you DO have an antag sitting on you, then it doesn't really matter if you're on old crit or new, you're very dead.  Even still you can sit in crit and be whapped on for such lengths of time as to have seucrity arrive and rescue you, I have not only seen this, I have done this and had it done to me.
Your claim is wrong. The math doesn't support it. It just doesn't.

All you have stated is absolutely wrong, you claiming that saline-glucose is incredibly common around the station is false, as there's only two areas you can get it from. Medical or Science Chemistry. And you're claim of "Syndiecakes are common around the station too" is absolutely false, as you'd have to hack the vendors to do it, and even then, there's only 4-5 vendors, and when those are gone / taken / used up by others.. they are gone forever, there's no magical way to refill them.

You claiming that people running around with an emergency medipen and sal-glu is a perk, or such compared to IPCs, when IPCs literally run around with a welder and cable coil on them at all times, and yet, I've yet to see anyone besides medical, antags or people going to gateway or such carry all those items on them at the same time. You're also completely ignoring the fact, that even if you treat ONE of the conditions you suffer from, unless you treat the other one, you'll STRAIGHT back to that new condition. If you suffer from heart failure and shock, you medipen yourself, you haven't dealt with shock.. so you'll just regain heart failure, then go into heart arrest.

You're claim that chemicals and all just magically fix your conditions instantly is totally untrue and false. And also completely ignoring how people who die while in new crit and get revived have a whole range of issues to deal with. The math doesn't support YOUR claim of "New crit is better then old crit, it gives people more health". It doesn't give people more health, it doesn't magically make them unable to die, or magically make it so they can't have bones or such broken. You make it out as if with new crit, every non-IPCs have magical invisable health buff and able to survive longer, and have all theses conditions without issues. It's completely untrue and false, you want to know what happens with the conditions?

1) Shock, you go into shock.. can't talk, everytime you try you gasp for air, you then start to suffer from confusion, so you randomly walk around in directions you don't want to go.
2) Heart failure, you start randomly passing out. Combined with the confusion from shock, this is BAD for a number of reasons.
3) Heart attack, you take massive oxygen loss, instantly pass out and start taking brain damage which adds onto your existing conditions.

So you're claim of people getting buffs is just unfounded and completely without merit, you just look at how people survive longer in crit and say "That makes them too OP, they get more health" when the person then has a whole rack of issues to be dealt with, effectively keeping them in medical for a very long time. Especially the claim of "You can sit in crit", no.. you can't, as each condition stage worsens or jumps to the new one. I could be in crit for 30 seconds, and suddenly jump to heart failure. Even if I autoinject myself, I'd still have shock, which just ramps up heart failure and makes the autoinject useless. I seriously think you need to re-read both the conditions of new crit as well as chemicals since you're making it all out to be wonderful magical fix all chemicals.

Quote

Yes. If a crew dies it can take a bit to repair them an get them back on their feet.  Except that literally half of the things on your list are handled via instantly applied chemicals which drastically cuts down on recovery time, the only things absolutely requiring surgery would be broken bones, internal bleeding and dead organs.  Damaged organs can sometimes be faster via surgery, but Mito is still an option if it's a particularly heavy moment and you cannot spare an operating room.  Missing limbs more often then not, get shipped to robotics and the surgery to put them on is like... 2 steps. It's really not a big deal.

No, it doesn't, again, you are making it out as if there's magical do-all, be-all chemical that solves all the worlds problems. There's no chemical for fixing bones, there's no chemical for fixing internal bleeding or ruptured lungs, there's a chemical for fixing dead organs but you have to take the organ out first, which will lead to them racking up oxygen / putting them straight into crit if it's a really important organ. And you're forgetting that missing limbs can have infection, internal bleeding, broken, or be even dead when they are put on. Limbs don't just magically heal themselves when taken off. And even if there is a chemical for all theses issues, it's locked behind admeme intervention or somehow gaining traitor items.

 

Quote

You ever tried to fix a dead IPC? Particularly one killed by an EMP? Because they don't just die, they super-die.  Every single limb and organ takes damage, every single part of them needs surgical repair because the damage is almost always over the threshold at which they suffer 'Broken robot bones' and can no longer be repaired externally.  And unlike carbon crew, IPCs can't just be slapped on the face with a synthflesh patch or two an call it a done day for the external injuries you have to go into surgery for every. Individual. Limb.   Ask anyone who has played robotics for any length of time, the surgeries are not any harder then for human crew, but they sure do take a lot of time.  Additionally if someone is super fucked, you can clone them.  Unless they are a slime or a vox they can be cloned. Even plasmas can be cloned if you know what you're doing, though I suppose in fairness, most don't.  IPC, whether they have -800 damage or not, there's nothing to do but sit there and surgically mend every single limb and patch all the myriad of dents an dings.

At this moment, I literally fixed an IPC that got Ion'd, more or less EMP'd twice. You want to know how I fixed them?
Cable coil
Welder
When they stood up, they had no organ issues inside. They then repaired themselves fully and walked out along their way.

Your claim of "IPCs have it harder because they can't be slapped with a synthflesh patch" is again, just dumbfounded. Synthflesh has to be created with a long process and you have to hope that chemists actually make it, where as IPCs just carry welder and cable coil on them at almost everytime. I've seen every single IPC have welder or cable coil on them for their issues, and there are many points here that just doesn't make absolute sense.

1) IPCs don't need cloning as they could be dead for a full 2 hour round, and you can STILL revive them by welder and cable coil.
2) Your claim of surgery being harder for IPCs, like.. what? I once gave SR to someone, who ended up having 2 dead organs in two different locations, three internal bleedings and a whole issue of broken bones. Surgery is literally the step of scalpel, hemostat, retractor, bone gel, bone settler, bone gel, cautery. Or scalpel, hemostat, retractor, saw, retractor, kit / remove organ, throw mito while injecting them to keep them above crit, put the organ back in, retractor, bone gel, bone settler, bone gel, cautery.

And you're saying that IPC surgery of screwdriver, crowbar, welder/nanopaste/cable coil, crowbar is SO much harder compared to humans? IPCs have the worlds easiest surgery, they don't have risk of infection, they don't get broken bones or the like, they don't get dead organs and even if they did have damaged areas inside of them, you can easily take it out and swap it without them going into crit or needing injectors. They also suffer no pain, so they don't need anthestic or an injection, or the malpractice of bad medicals who cause more harm then good.

 

Quote

Even more additionally, the claim was never New Crit was OP, but that you were ignoring the point, and the point was how long you can survive in it. This is, in essence, a buff to someone's "Effective HP"  they essentially have more then they had before, because now you can survive in the state for far longer then before, where IPC are in the same state they were.  This is a buff to any new-crit races, and it;s why there's been talk of slimes and IPC again in the first place.  Just because you keep adding "Well the only..." to a pro or a con doesn't matter. The amount of pros or cons literally doesn't ever matter, it is what those pros and cons are that matters, the merits of each.  If we gave plasmamen 7 down sides and gave them the "only" perk of being able to fart nuclear bombs that killed all antags on all Z-levels, I'd venture to guess that most people would say they were crazy OP whether or not they had only a single upside or not.

See all my above quotes on New Crit, you're effectively ignoring all the issues, all the problems, all the fixing they need done because "They survive longer in crit, doesn't matter that they take all theses issues, they survive longer so it's a nerf to everyone else". You're also rather being unreasonable from people saying that old crit is a buff for IPCs and trying to jump to say that if we were to give Plasmamen a broken mechanic, everyone would be in favor of them having it removed no matter what the downsides were. And you would be correct in that.

 

Quote

2: I'm making it out that way, because it is that way.  Any race operating on New Crit got a buff to effective HP, while IPC not only did not, but they're for some reason operating on blood that you can get from 2 whole places on station. Robotics, or Cargo.  You could get some from chemistry, but why Chemistry would have enough oil on hand to fix 'blood loss' for an IPC when it isn;t medical's job and oil is a necessary component in a lot of meds?  Which it is essentially blood loss, by the by so you can add "Blood loss" to things IPC are no longer 'immune' as it will kill them very dead if not handled.  The "Ease of repair" part of IPCs keeps fading more and more and yet, none of the "easy to break" part ever does. This seems just a touch silly to me and is not something to be glossed over.

Oil in chemistry is used a lot in various chemicals and is super easy to make. Welding fuel, carbon, hydrogen. Bam, oil. Just ask any chemist to make it and they can in 10 seconds. And the only things IPCs suffer from now is oil loss, which only gives them stamina damage and effectively stuns them when they get low enough. I've yet to see a IPC die from actual blood loss. I repaired an IPC once who said they had about.. 40-50% oil.. if that was a human, they'd be dead straight up. The IPC, they just "couldn't stand up" until we fed them some oil. And that's because all the "easy to break" parts can just be reattached and fix'd ANYWHERE on the station.. literally, all you need is a table and the items, bam.. you got them fixed. Compared to malpractice or ghetto surgery which causes more harm then good often then not.



 

[BeanOS]

@Dinarzad

Add in IPC augmentations - Problem Solved.

Also in regard to repairing IPC, Nanopaste can be used externally to repair internal components, I know this because I do it frequently as a medical borg.
What people don't seem to realize is that the Cyborg Rechargers will also repair IPC & refill their oil levels, dependent on the level of upgrade the recharger is on, you do not need to manually operate on IPC's, unless it is to reattach limbs, or replace a completely destroyed components.
There is also Liquid Solder, that can be made to repair Posibrain damage on the fly.

[davidchan]

I'll preface this saying I am against IPCs getting space proof, but just want to point out IPCs are in a bad place balance wise, and have been for sometime. But hey were still waiting on vulps to be balanced since colorblind was decoupled from darksight.

 

The major difference between organic broken bones and IPC malfunctioning limb is that an organic can heal the damage to the limb once it's broken, an IPC can not. The threshold for dropping items is very low on IPCs (I've dropped items with only 5 brute on an arm while mining plenty of times)  so they are hit with the penalties sooner.

 

If a human takes 30 damage to their arm, breaking it preventing it's use, they can still use healing items on themself to remove the damage and splint it if surgery isn't an option. An IPC on the other hand will break a limb and be stuck with that damage, unable to repair it. They can't splint it and because they can't self repair internal damage they are stuck with that damage, and thus closer to critical/death.

 

As for nanopaste, it repairing internals without surgery must be new, since I've made attempts to use it in the past to rapidly repair IPCs and borgs and ultimately found it not doing the job. That and nanopaste has a relatively high metal cost that science will rarely print it for anything other than MedSurgery to use to repair implants. I'll have to test that but I'm not holding my breathe.

 

Cyborg chargers definitely do not repair internal damage. If the limb is broken the charger won't fix it, I've shoved IPCs in chargers before and it only repaired topical damage I could have repaired with my own wire and welder, the limbs stayed broke. And this is over the caveat that the vast majority of science players do not upgrade chargers, if ever. I've seen more drones upgrade chargers than scientists, and they have to drag each component one by one to accomplish that.

[BeanOS]

@davidchan

I do make a point of upgrading the rechargers whenever I am playing an engiborg, because as you state, science almost never upgrades them.

When it comes to breaks however, you may be able to splint arms and legs, but you can't mitigate chest and head breaks, which are by far more serious to organics than for an IPC, as a broken bone in upper or head will lead to organ damage, which then needs additional action to be repaired.

In regards to the nanopaste, maybe it is a function of the mediborg's nanopaste alone, that allows it to repair internal damage externally, as that is all I can attest to, as I don't often play robotics or perform IPC repair as normal crew. However, note that borg internal parts that are not destroyed can be repaired externally with nanopaste as they are linked to the overall borg damage.

[Pokebro2000]

Just had an idea: how about, instead of giving them immunity, we make ipc's take less damage from space. Thoughts?

[davidchan]

I can't speak for the entire community of IPC players, but myself personally and those I have chit chatted with about the current state of IPCs is that the people who 'main' IPC characters do not want their immunities or vulnerabilities tweaked. EMPs are an entirely different bag but that's a topic for another time.

What IPC players want is the 'Easy to damage, Easy to repair' philosophy to be true. It currently is not since IPCs require the most outside/second person help to repair what any other species might consider a minor injury. Having to run to robotics for 5-20 minutes of surgery and topping off on oil multiple times per hour is not easy to repair, especially if the roboticist doesn't know or doesn't care to work on anything but their mechs and borgs. Allowing them to quick disconnect limbs (or even their head) to make repairs themselves is something that might be desirable.

Becoming space proof tincans is not. To some it makes sense that an IPC would survive in space without much problem, to others it does not. Me personally, I consider them air cooled so taking damage in space makes sense to me, take away the atmosphere and all that heat has to go somewhere.

 

TL;DR: 'Easy to Fix, Easy to Repair' is a Myth in the current build. Making IPCs space proof or rolling back damage they take isn't what people want. Giving IPCs a viable route to repair themselves on par with MedChem and Virology heal viruses is what players want.

[Rurik]

I always get to these late, so I'll keep it short and simple.
 

Ziiro made a pr that made emp's heavily damage and stun IPC's, but not instant kill. This allowed for antags who were specifically targeting them to keep the lethality and get the easy kill, while also allowing IPC's that happened to be in a emp blast zone, and thus a unintended casualty, not be instantly killed. This would also let antags use emps in a larger radius with a more carefree attitude to disable sec weapons (their intended use mind you) without fear of killing unseeable bystander IPC's around the corner, or through a wall. 

It was a smart, logical change that would keep the best of both worlds. It was shot down.

I'm confident that should that change ever make it in, it would be positive and a solid step in the right direction towards balancing them.