Admin Complaint: Saxis

[Rebel0]

Admin(s) Key: Saxis
Your ckey (Byond username): Rebel0
Your Discord name (if applicable): Comrade Southy#4982 - (Probably not applicable but I'll leave it anyways since that's how I got most of the information.)

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): Around 10:00-10:36PM EST, June 18th. Around 2 AM GMT, June 19th.

Nature of complaint: Feedback/Clarification Required/'Other'

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): As warden I was warned for a series of events regarding a birgbay surgery and PAI deactivation. The latter was amended. The former, a part I was never even told I had been warned about, stayed. I was not informed about being warned about anything besides the PAI deactivation until afterwards when discussing the warning over the PAI deactivation - thus why it was dropped. I feel it's an unfair warning from what I can tell that did not take all the events into account, I am not allowed to know what the warning even was word for word as the admin who warned me said I was only being warned over the PAI matter and other admins can't tell me since they cannot not read me my notes (I only got a 'cliff notes' version that is not word-for-word and very brief when I asked what I was even warned for when the PAI part was taken off.) 

Full description of events: I'm going to keep this brief as I don't want to harp on the subject.

From what I can tell the warning was about makes me feel the warning is incorrect as it did not take into account the in game events, I feel it ignored part of my A-Help replies where I explained a decent bit of it and the warning makes a strange judgement. I do not have the logs but I was told along the lines of: "A mentor should know better." Perhaps not word for word but I don't particularly like being told that especially when part of the warning was removed (The PAI part) and then still having another piece the admin never even told me I was being warned for.

If an admin wishes to supply the A-help logs that may be helpful as I did not take pictures of them and my wording of the exact context may be off. I do reference to the brief exchange but I do not have the word for word pictures. I may have read something wrong possibly or missed something so it could perhaps be helpful if that is the case.

Here is the description I was given by @Shockpoint as to what the warning was about and was given permission to cite it here. It is not word for word but it is all I know about the warning besides the PAI part which had been changed as previously stated.



I'll make this part into bullet points for ease of reading. Otherwise I feel I'd be all over the place explaining things. I'm more than happy to clarify if needed.

I feel my responses to A-helps were ignored. I did explain a good bit of this to the admin when bwoinked but I feel it went overlooked or was ignored. The questions I was asked typically got no clarification response nor was I told specifically what the issue was besides the whole PAI deactivation bit. This is a retelling of game events on my end of what I think is relevant.

• I had stated I did not know of the internal bleeding before getting the person into security, they finally stopping berating me to finally say something regarding it, getting them into brigbay and scanning them to prove said injury. The person, when arrested, was not being treated at all but rather standing in front of a sleeper with someone in it treating them. When preforming the arrest they got up and proceeded to baton me multiple times then flee - which to me inferred they were not badly wounded. In fact they had just beaten someone else in the middle of medbay for, what was to me an unknown reason. This further proved to me they weren't injured in any major or life threatening way.
• On the warden Wiki page it states "Medical knowledge is helpful" and "Should the prisoner need non-life threatening medical aid, do so now." This is what I had aimed to do once they were in security since the brig doctor seemed new and I had no real prisoners to manage at the time. I did not know for sure IB until I was /almost/ in brigbay with them and I finally saw them state that they had IB. I figured that it was non-life threatening an an easy fix. A quick surgery and some water - easy.
• When I realized this person was not healable after so many deaths and the defib running out of charges (as well as the brig doctor not getting things out of the nanomed as I requested that could have stopped it) I did bring them to medical. I did not impede on medicals ability to heal as I knew they were dying and heavily injured. (It didn't help that a minute or two before I dragged the person to medbay I /believe/ the Brig Doc gave them O- blood when they were a slime. I saw them attempt to put it in their arm but I'm unsure if they had finished doing so or not. I believe that's what really contributed to the large toxin damage that made them completely unfixable within brigbay. This is hindsight though since I remember seeing the red letters of them bagging them and me saying something - I'm unsure if any of the blood was pumped into them or not.)

Regarding the reason I was making an arrest and 'running about with lethals' was for two major reasons.

1. It was code red. I was attempting to find out what had happened to a perma holopara user who was undergoing treatment and was not in brigbay at the time. When heading for medical I witnessed the person beating someone as I've sated. Under code red SoP as warden I made an arrest which I am permitted to do. I later returned to the holopara user being in brigbay - thus why the person I had arrested was being fixed on a roller bed instead of a table.
2. The HoS and most of security had not been responsive. The HoS was SSD at the time and moved to cyro shortly there after. I did call for backup but no one showed up to help me when I was stunbattoned. The CMO had outright stunned the person, gave me back my baton, let me cuff the perp and proceed with the arrest. All this without  a word of 'let me treat them' or 'they're injured' - since they hadn't been acting as if they were. All I had was a doctor say "They're injured" when I had already dragged them into the hallway - which I figured was nothing major given the persons activity of stunning me and attempting to flee.

While I do feel I could have handled this situation better and I personally doubt the warning will be removed - I still feel it's unfair and I feel that explaining it is helpful since I was not told I was being warned about any of this. 

I was warned for something I was found to be 'valid' in doing after. Only then was I finally told there was more to the warning.

• I do not in any way recall being told I was being warned about anything besides the PAI. From how it sounded, and this is not word for word quote wise, but it sound as that I was 'understood' with the patient issue but not from the PAI issue. Perhaps that's me reading it wrong but that is what I had gotten from the A-help - my replies afterwards were based around said PAI issue as that's all I thought the issue was about and the rest was just clarification of other events.
• The original warning I was told I was given, and accepted for the purpose of getting clarification later, was only to do with the PAI part. The PAI was wiped and I was warned for 'removing someone from the round'. Thus when I was told something along the lines of 'a mentor should know that'. This was later revised as I did have a reason to doing this - it wasn't a random wiping of a PAI. I still don't really like how I was told something along the lines of 'a mentor should know that' when I was told I was justified in doing so afterwards and it was amended. I understand it in the heat of a moment saying that from something you expect something good out of - but it feels unneededly demeaning.
• The only 'hint' I was given that there was more of an issue was towards round end when I was asked why I had been doing surgery in the first place. Which I had done to try and stop the injury, which I didn't think was immediately life threatening, from becoming that. I figured it was non-life threatening before the massive toxin damage started to take hold. This is not against SoP to aid in treating them and, from how I saw it based on the Wiki page saying 'medical knowledge was helpful' - I figured it was allowed to aid in stabilization and healing.
   

Regarding my opinion on the warning and my main issue of why I am placing this admin complaint.

• While I would prefer the warning be revised/amended or removed I do understand if it's not. Perhaps I'm biased coming from someone who was playing the round and the warning is against me. I feel it is unfair given the circumstances and how I feel my a-help explanations were not listened to - however that's not the sole reason I'm leaving this.
• My main issue that I feel is a big deal to me is not even being told I was warned for anything other than the PAI. I can look back after I was told by other admins there was more to the warning and go: "That's why he said that?" - but that's not really satisfactory for me. I'm not allowed to get access to what I was exactly warned over. An admin may not read my my notes to tell me. Saxis never himself told me the entire warning besides the PAI part and it took me talking to Shockpoint to find out there was even more to the warning besides the PAI part of it which was amended.
  
  That's extremely annoying as I didn't even know specifically what the issue was, what rule I had come close to breaking or major SoP/role rule I broke while trying to do this and how I could improve if this is the case - even if I don't agree with it fully. It's helpful to know and lets me understand. 
• I would figured if a warning is given I would be told it after the admin who did warn me admits they had a communication issue to me in DM's afterwards - only to get no explanation either. Just that the PAI part was dropped - which I was notified by other admins prior. And, while I understand miscommunication happens, I expected to be told what the rest is. Especially when I had already stated to other admins I wanted to know what I specifically was warned over anyways only to be told that they could not give me what it was specifically or it would be considered discussing notes.

 

Such as this image.

And -


(A small note with these - I DID crop them to fit the subject. Prior to the reviewing mention was talk about the PAI incident - which I feel would just be unneeded to show. There was non-subject related talk in between the two images provided but I feel it's not applicable as it was non-SS13. I can provide the whole thing if needed but I don't feel it's fully necessary. Saxis may post them if he feels I made it look bad or cropped anything important out - as that is not my intention. My intention to just show what I had been told regarding the still existent warning and what I was told would be the future.)

While I do doubt it it'll be a future issue my points still stand. I still feel the warning was unfairly placed, just as the PAI one was, and I still don't get to know what I was specifically warned about and what rules/major law or SoP breaches I did to get such a warning.

Finally - I would like to clarify one thing. Miscommunications do happen and it is totally understandable.  Sometimes you forget to say something that's on your mind, sometimes your distracted, etc. It's completely understandable. But it is a big issue is that I'll never get to really know what I'm warned about since Paradise does not permit admins to discuss exact notes or warnings with players. While it may not be a ban I still do feel it is important. It's something that stays on my notes and I'm not even able to view or learn from it. It oddly just makes me feel 'left in the dark' and clarifying issues and things I could have done differently is rather constructive.

Even if I feel I didn't do anything wrong - having an understanding is rather helpful to avoid future issues since I'm not here to argue and try and break rules or ruin someones experience. Since I was warned I feel the admin must have seen the actions as 'tip-toeing' the line of going over into rulebreaking/bad behavior territory or at least come close to it without me even it meaning to. Thus feedback is always helpful and has always been helpful to me. So far I've been unable to get said feedback that I kind of expect from a warning as no one can discuss my warning or the exact reason with round context - and the only person to give my a 'cliff notes' version wasn't present I don't believe nor knew the exact details of what occurred that round specifically so it's not as helpful as the administrator who issued the warning could have been.

I apologize if this comes off as long winded, too full of 'fluff'/irreverent information or comes off with any sort of 'sour' mood as it's not my intention. My intention is to leave feedback, ask for clarification and request a revise of the warning itself if that is acceptable. I never really wanted to leave an admin complaint about this but I feel it's the only way of getting a revise on the warning and possible clarification regrading the warning since I have gotten no answer in any other fashion.

Thank you.

[necaladun]

Warned for their activities as warden. They arrested SimPleCitES in medbay and took them back to the brig despite them dying from IB. Rebel then miserably to perform surgery themselves resulting in SimPleCitES dying eight times despite there being a brig phys and an operational medbay. They addmitted they killed SimPleCitES's pai (BoppyBear) because they were annoying. Additionally, they ran around with a shotgun acting as a security officer insteada of handling their responsibilities in the brig. As a mentor and player with as many hours as them they should know better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the note.  Is it accurate?

[Rebel0]

1 minute ago, necaladun said:

Warned for their activities as warden. They arrested SimPleCitES in medbay and took them back to the brig despite them dying from IB. Rebel then miserably to perform surgery themselves resulting in SimPleCitES dying eight times despite there being a brig phys and an operational medbay. They addmitted they killed SimPleCitES's pai (BoppyBear) because they were annoying. Additionally, they ran around with a shotgun acting as a security officer insteada of handling their responsibilities in the brig. As a mentor and player with as many hours as them they should know better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the note.  Is it accurate?

While I understand part of this I did highlight the events of the round.

The issues with the brig phys, I do not see anywhere where it says I cannot help the brig doctor and the fact the HoS and majority of security was not present nor responding. I was 'running around' looking for the perma prisoner as the HoS was SSD and no officers responded to any of my requests. A warden is permitted under code red to make an arrest - which is what I did - and I wasn't actively looking for trouble. The shotgun did not even have lethal rounds in it either nor did I use it at all that round besides on a major trespasser and an E-sword user. I still do not know what responsibilities I neglected as I had no prisoners, the armory was secure and perma was secure at the time. When I called for the HoS again during the surgery I had no response. 

Medbay did not appear to be treating them either, as I stated. They were standing in front of a sleeper healing someone. They were not being scanned, in surgery or anything. They had beaten another patient a minute previously and I did not see any major damage on them besides some brute. They died in quick succession and I was reviving them - I was not purposefully killing them. The brig doctor, as stated, was not helping. No toxin curing, refusing to advanced scan then, refusing to get stuff out of the nanomed. Thus why I brought them to medical.

The PAI part I thought was removed as well but I guess it wasn't? It also doesn't help I was literally not warned about any of this. I just was told, again, about the PAI part and told I was being warned for that. All I got told after round was Spark saying to 'reel in my warden play' and Shockpoint giving me a cliffnote thing of it.

[necaladun]

Please answer my question.

 

Is the note accurate? 

[Rebel0]

2 minutes ago, necaladun said:

Please answer my question.

 

Is the note accurate? 

No. The PAI part is not accurate at all and I was told was removed/amended. I was told this is a warning but I don't feel I came close to and/or broke any rules nor a major SoP breach. The 'running about' part is not accurate either. I am willing to accept I should have brought the person to medbay sooner but I was attempting to help them by doing surgery - which I did fine and not 'terribly' since I did fix the IB, but the toxin damage was massive. I in no way was purposefully killing them or attempting to remove them from the round in any purposeful way. I was trying to revive them and I did not even process or brig them after what they went through since I did feel bad they had to sit there for however long in a constant state of revive-die even while in medical - as they continued to die multiple times in medical from what I recall.

[Jamuro]

I could be wrong here but i am almost certain that my char was the brig physician that round.

 

So here is what i remember of those events:

First, this whole mess is somewhat my fault(the dying part) i have to admit.

I spent too much time adding surplus stuff to the brigbay and constructing stuff so that in the end i completly forgot to get anestehtic tanks and a mask.

To make matters worse, we both had crit patients that needed surgery at the same time ... which resulted in me probably more than once taking surgery tools that were needed for my own operation and vice versa.

It is very likley that i did administer the o- without checking what race the wardens patient was ... it was quite a clusterfu** in brigbay at this point, with stuff being everywhere and half of it still being filled with tools and machine components and my own patient rushing towards crit on the surgery table.

In the end, i was so focused on my operation that i hardly spent time reading any of the talks that were ongoing ... especially since i was trying to selectivly read the lines about wheather or not my char fumbled the surgery steps due to the lack of anesthetic.

Which means i almost certainly did ignore medicine requests or at the very least reacted too late to some of them. (to make matters worse, the medvendomat i got for brigbay was almost empty of important stuff like salbutamol even before i got it there)

Much later i got asked by the iaa in a seemingly non official capacity (it felt more like water cooler talk than an inquiry) if i heard about the warden repeatedly killing someone.

At the time i agreed with that ... but it was not my intend to blame anyone (especially not to cause a warning to be issued) ... rather i was very frustrated with my own performance and the surgery tool snatching, followed by brigbay being blown up 2 times.

 

Summary:

It very much was an exceptional stressfull and unusual situation where both of us had their hands more than full and to me at least it didn't realy look like he was trying to grief or kill his patient.

Hope this helps

Edited June 20, 2019 by Jamuro

[necaladun]

Thanks for the added information all. I've talked to saxis who was pretty tired at the time and I'll make sure the notes are properly edited to reflect this all.

Atm im in europe so it might be a bit unless my flights get delayed again, but overall this is a pretty minor note/issue and your understanding and cooperation with clearing this up speaks volumes to.your character, comrade rebel0.

[necaladun]

@Saxis could you rewrite the note to reflect this all when you have time and are less tired? (And maybe without the at 3 or so typos i can count :p)

[Rebel0]

I’m not attempting to bump my thread but has there been any progress on this?

It’s almost been a month since I started the thread and I’m curious to know if it’s been resolved, if still being fixed or if there’s been any change. I hope my explanation I have given explain the event that occurred better.

[necaladun]

@Saxis re-ping, if you're awake now after a month?

[necaladun]

Saxis is super busy so I'll get it myself in a day or two

[necaladun]

Done, talked to Rebel0, notes fixed and this is (FINALLY) resolved!

[necaladun]

Oh and for the record - complaint is with merit.