Admin Complaint: Abydos2

[Call_me_Arty]

Admin(s) Key: Abydos2
Your ckey (Byond username): Callmearty
Your Discord name (if applicable): Call me Arty

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): June 21, 2019 GMT.

Nature of complaint:
(Select all that apply: EG - clarification required, misapplication of rules, misconduct, abuse of powers, feedback, other)

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): In the resolution of a Discord ban, I believe that Abydos provided insufficient reasoning and warning for a ban, in addition to what I view as an arbitrary and dis-satisfactory ruling of the ban appeal (seen here).

Full description of events: Yesterday/Very early today, I played a round in which a player who is somewhat infamous for a poor attitude (this is not an attack on them, I see this as a fact in the same way that saying "Spacemanspark has gone too far with jokes" or that "Call_me_Arty is a lovable scamp who needs to be more considerate of the server's policies regarding self-antagging in the future".) allegedly killed five bystanders by opening a breach to space using an RCD, rather than killing the vampire that they were intending to kill. As I learned this from a statement made by the Chief Medical Officer over the general radio, I did make a remark about it to the player's expense in the Space Station 13 channel of the discord. I did this with the logic that, as it was over the common radio, it would be free from the IC in OOC policies that I was previously aware of (as it would then be common knowledge, rather than something that ONLY your character would know, or particularly advantageous information for those not involved), and that others who knew this player in a negative context would find it humorous.

 Half an hour after this happened in the game, around the time a new round was starting, the player contacted me using direct messages over discord with an attitude that could best be described as "aggressive". As I found this situation humorous and able to be conveniently fit into a single cropped screenshot, I did post a screenshot featuring our private, direct messages between this player and I to the public discord with a caption meant to mock them along the lines of "they act exactly out of the game as they do in it". Abydos deleted this post, and in a message on that public channel to me stated that I am not to attack or berate other players out of character, nor am I to post private messages to a public discussion, to which I apologized and relented.

 Shortly after, another player posted the  emoji, which I took to mean "what happened here." I summarized the previous incidents without attacking the player or disclosing details of the private messages as "Player had some choice words for me and I posted the screenshot." Abydos took issue to this and replied with "what did I just ask you about Rule #2". Though my original message was in violation of the second rule of the Discord server - which is similar to server rule #4 (Rule 4: Maintaining a Respectful Environment. Under no circumstances is OOC harassment of another player allowed, regardless of who the victim is. . . Do not put down, invalidate, berate and/or otherwise insult any player, community or server.), I did not see my summary as breaking any aspect of these rules, nor did Abydos mention rule #2 in his original warning. I noted I did not see my summary as a violation of Discord Rule #2, that Abydos did not cite rule #2 in his initial warning, that I would not continue the attacks on the player or references to our direct messages, and admittedly unnecessary references to the actions of the player that I mocked that I saw as justification for what I did.

I continued to play for another five minutes or so, commented on another topic in that same channel, saw that the discord server vanished from my sidebar and came to the conclusion that I was banned from the server. I went cryo and then wrote my discord ban appeal (linked in the brief description). It was written as I did not see why I was banned, as I apologized for my actions, did not repeat them, and even cited the rule which I broke which, paradoxically, are the sort of steps one would take after they were banned to prove why they should be unbanned, rather than what comes before a ban. I was also upset by the fact that I was not notified that I was banned. Speaking from experience, a ban from the game server is followed by a statement that you were banned, a reason why you were banned, how the situation could have been avoided, how to appeal that ban, who banned you, and when you were banned. I saw this as very bureaucratic, and therefore very unlike Paradise as a whole. As I am aware that ban-evasion is a bannable offense, I did not try to find a way back into the discord server for confirmation, time stamps, or accurate quotes for fear of an accusation of ban-evasion.

In their response to my ban appeal, Abydos cited two reasons for my ban.

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1) The first reason is you doing IC in OOC upon the discord. You had posted information related to the round (A player killing 5 people with an RCD) and posted it on the public discord, it doesn't matter if the "CMO said it over the radio". Placing current round IC information into OOC channels is forbidden regardless.

 

This is true. I did post information related to the round on the public discord. This is a violation of Paradise Server Rules #2 (roleplaying standards, Placing current round information into OOC chat (IC in OOC).  I see this as entirely irrelevant. Had I been banned for posting IC in OOC, I would understand it as relevant. Had I posted IC in OOC previously, been warned against posting IC in OOC, and then proceeded to post IC in OOC again and then banned, I would have understood it as relevant. Had it been cited in a message explaining to me as to why I had been banned from the discord server, I would have understood it as relevant. However, this incident had was unrelated to the behavior the admin took issue with, and they did not mention it in any of their warnings or discussion with me. While it was a violation of the rules, I would see it as akin to being warned by an admin against valid-hunting, and being banned for both continuing to valid-hunt, in addition to having killed a SSD player half an hour prior with no remark upon it from the administrator. Yes, it is still a broken rule that I would gladly make an appeal for, but it wasn't highlighted in the slightest by Abydos themselves. With all that said, I do not see the first reason given for my ban as being valid, and instead view it as a failure on the part of the admin to communicate with me as a player, and provide an understanding as to what rules I had broken.

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2) The second reason is attacking another player in the public discord. Posting private messages between you and them on a public setting. I had asked you to stop doing such things about the private DMs, only for you to then semi continue by telling another person what had happened. When I told you that you were belittling another player, you pulled a... "need to have the last say" moment on why you thought it was acceptable to attack another player for in-round actions.

I did belittle another player in the public discord. I did post private messages between us on a public setting. Abydos had not "asked me to stop doing such things about the private DMs." They asked me "what did I just say about rule #2" with their original warning, not that any mention of it would be a violation. This wasn't me trying to rules-lawyer the admin (Rule 0: Don't be a dick, Rule 1: Listen to the admins). My response the the "other person" did not include personal information and did not insult them, it did not even shift blame. "[Player] had some choice words for me, I posted a screenshot of it, Abydos deleted it." "What did I just say about Rule #2" is not "telling me that I was belittling another player", but I acknowledged that in my third comment on the topic. "I looked up the rules, my original comment did break discord rule #2, but my second did not. I'll drop the topic." That " ' need to have the last say' moment on why you thought it was acceptable to attack another player for in round actions" moment I pulled? The keyword is "thought." I explained why I had "attacked" the player in the first place, prior to my apology for doing so and dropping the subject (as my next post in that channel being on the legality of Vox wearing chicken costumes) and was not a justification for my actions, nor an admission that I was in the right to keep doing so.

Abydos concludes their appeal response with 

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As for the ban itself, after looking back and speaking to another admin I can see how I was not that clear. However, if you have an issue with a player in the future then you should make a player complaint. Publicly belittling them does not help and creates unnecessary drama. It also seems that you don't fully understand the reasons on why you were banned;

  18 hours ago, Call_me_Arty said:

As they are somewhat infamous for their poor attitude, I figured that others who knew him for it would get a chuckle out of it.

 

You are continuing with the actions that had gotten you banned in the first place on the appeal itself. With that I have no option but to decline this. You may reappeal after a week. When you reappeal next time, I'd like for you to quote the rules you had broken, with the secret phrase found within the rules and not using your appeal to make sly remarks about another player.

 

   I am bothered by this section the most. Essentially, their argument boils down to

• What you did was wrong.
• What you did was wrong, for these reasons.
• I was unclear when I banned you, another admin agrees.
• You are continuing the actions that got you banned in the first place, please quote the rules that you broke.

Whereas my argument boils down to

• What I did was wrong. 
• What I did was wrong for these reasons.
• You were unclear when you banned me.
• I was not continuing the actions that got me banned in the first place, according to these rules that I know about because they're the rules that I broke.

In both of my responses to Abydos on the discord, I admitted fault, admitted that I broke the rules, and that I would not continue my behavior. Not only did I say this, I proved it by not continuing the behavior immediately by talking about another topic! Speaking from experience, I know what a clear ban is. I sure didn't like it, but I would go so  far as to say that the encounter with the previous admin lead to me having a greater understanding of server rules and the Paradise community, which is why that even when I did break rules, I used the lessons I learned. That being said, I don't understand why an unclear ban would still stand if the point of bans are to help the player improve. "You don't know why you were banned, but make changes so you don't do that thing again" is the kind of exaggeration people make for the purpose of mocking admins. Finally, they used something I said which was an explanation for my past behavior as proof that I feel fine in my current behavior. I did not make a sly remark. That was a "well, you see officer, I ran that red light because it had been yellow for a while when I got to the intersection" point. I wasn't trying to pull a fast one by being a jackass in my appeal. I felt okay in doing it because I disliked that player, and other people also disliked them. After rereading Rule 4 (Maintaining a Respectful Environment: Under no circumstances is OOC harassment of another player allowed, regardless of who the victim is.) I stopped using that as an justification when I reread the rule. If this is appropriate protocol and reasoning for an admin, then nobody should be unbanned because at some point, they thought what they were doing was okay. If you read my ban appeal, you will see that nowhere in my reasoning as to why I should be unbanned was because "someone else was doing something bad first".

In Summary:

I do not take issue with being banned. I understand that it's just something that will happen on Paradise if you don't follow the rules, and it's done with the intention of maintaining it's ideal feel and sense of community. I put in character information in an out of character space, and I berated another player at their expense not only by mocking them as a person, but posting private messages in a public space. Both of these are violations of the rules. What I take issue with is the methods the admin who banned me used to handle the situations, and to answer my appeals. A warning for my behavior, okay, good. I did a bad thing and I was called out for it. That's fine. I acknowledged the admin's request, and apologized. I then made another post regarding that I had berated another player and exposed direct messages in a manner than neither berated them, nor exposed direct messages. When the admin replied to my summary asking why I broke a rule, I explained why I had not broken a rule in my summary despite the fact that I did break one previously. Then "I broke the rules, I'm sorry, I'll drop the entire subject I only started it because of these reasons" and got banned with no communication or explanations. I come to the forum and do everything that is expected of me in a ban appeal, only to be called out for a previous issue that they did not highlight, stating that I did not follow instructions that they did not give me and "semi-continuing" (Did I break the rules or didn't I?) to break the rules, told that they can see where they didn't make it clear to me as to how I broke the rules, and then using an arbitrary sentence to condemn me. This behavior is below what I expect for Paradise Admins. I don't expect the admins to be my friends, or to let my rule-breaking slide, but I at least expect them to be consistent and orderly in the way they do process what I do wrong.

I believe that Abydos misapplied the rules, as they banned me despite the fact that I apologized for my mistake, and did not repeat it.

I believe that Abydos is guilty of misconduct, as they admitted to being unclear in their handling of the situation, in addition that they did not give explanation as to why, by who, when, or even where I was banned.

I believe Abydos abused their power as a Trial Admin, as they used their ability to ban users from the discord as a shorthand for explaining the issue and their grievances more in-depth with me, and seemingly feeling better than needing to properly read through my appeal.

As a form of feedback, I believe that Abydos is a sub-standard when compared to the expectations set by by the administrators I have personally interacted with on the server, in my appeals, and in my readings of forum discussions and other appeals. They failed to create an interaction that made my ban feel justified, or to respect those with power in the community.

[TyOmaha]

I will not be handling this, but I oversaw the response to the appeal and gave a lot of guidance on it. So if your concern is the appeal then this is directed at myself.

I agree with your point of how the warning wasn't clear, and have already talked to Abydos about that. We did acknowledge that in the appeal itself. He will be more clear in future matters.

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"I broke the rules, I'm sorry, I'll drop the entire subject I only started it because of these reasons"

Here is the message I think you're talking about:

5 minutes later you said this, rationalizing how "constant belittling isn't uncalled for". This resulted in the ban.

If someone is DMing you in a hostile manner, report it and we will look into it.

Originally I was going to have him accept your appeal, but this was the deciding factor:

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As they are somewhat infamous for their poor attitude, I figured that others who knew him for it would get a chuckle out of it.

I do not view this as a fact like you claim, facts are supported by hard evidence. There was no player-wide poll that asked whether or not they thought the person had a poor attitude. Even if there was, two wrongs don't make a right. Like you quoted in Rule 4; OOC harassment of others is not allowed regardless of who the victim is. Which is why we said to make a player complaint. Saying "X player is infamous for their poor attitude" I do view as a sly remark, and similar to the behaviour with the last comment on Discord. So this is where we will have to disagree and wait for a head judgement. 

I encourage you to make a player complaint if you feel you the actions taken by this player are severe enough to the point we have reached now.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Ty Omaha

[Call_me_Arty]

 Once again, I would understand had I been banned for the initial message containing the remark at the other player's expense and the screenshot of our private messages, but I cannot understand why that last message would have warranted a ban. I did not belittle the other player, I did not once again share private messages, I explained why such behavior ( that is not allowed in the Paradise community) would come about. I did not encourage more people to take that behavior, either. It concerns something that is against server rules, and why one might violate them, but doesn't break them either. 

 Once again, I don't view "X player is infamous for their poor attitude" as a sly remark If you read my appeal, it's context as to why I made the decision to share the information and opinions that led to this situation in the first place. "I ran the red light because it was still yellow when I got to the intersection" is not me saying "I think it's fine to run red lights." The remark towards their attitude and it's infamy with other players is necessary, I believe, because this situation wouldn't have happened had it not been a factor. I would not have shared private messages with any other random player, and I would not have gone out of my way to complain about the one guy specifically bothering me. None of that matters, however, because it would still be a violation of Rule 4 (. . . regardless of who the victim is). I ran that red light, but I didn't do it for the hell of it. Had I wanted to insult that player, I'm certain that I would do it somewhere else other than the appeal for my ban concerning the breaking of a rule concerning other players, or would have chosen an insult more scathing then the highlighting of a relevant personality trait. Though I do not have the authority of an administrator, and what I did was not a corrective measure for the betterment of the community, it is a fact that behavior is a factor in decision-making.

 

[necaladun]

No part of the rules says you apologising makes you exempt from being banned.

Abydos was correct to ban you for breaking the rules. You are not entitled to be warned. The message to read the rules in the first place is the only warning that should be needed.

I have talked to Abydos about being firmer and clearer when speaking as an admin, and to be less permitting of IC in OOC in future.

 

The only misconduct here was yours. Your ban was justified by you breaking the rules. You playing the victim shows that denying your appeal was the correct action.

This all could have been avoided if you had simply followed the rules.

 

Complaint resolved.