Admin Complaint: Abydos2

[HyperionAlpha]

Admin(s) Key: Abydos2
Your CKEY: HyperionAlpha
Your Discord name:  N/A
Date of incident: 07/08/2019 23:50 (GMT)

Nature of complaint: Misapplication of rules, Feedback, Other
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: N/A

Brief description (TL;DR):

I was issued with a warning after stealing equipment from an open locker, evading arrest and fleeing the station during code green. After the brief discussion with the admin flatlined, I was bemoaning the fact that the situation was still escalating without my involvement in dead chat. The admin reached out again to inform me that due to my comments to them and those made in dead chat that I would be receiving a ban. I feel there were problems with this process that resulted in factual inaccuracies, incorrect application of the rules, insufficient dialog and possibly misreading my contention that they were wrong as “I’m not going to listen to you or do what you say”

Full description of events:

• Start round, grab my usual uniform (grey jumpsuit, blue toolbox, full tool belt) grab maintenance loot (banana grenade, syndicate soap) and learn the airlock wires.
• Run into civilian dragging SSD sec officer, offer to Cryogenics them but he wakes up.
• Those nerds in Science Chemistry managed to blow a big hole in the floor, so I hack airlocks open and take one of the two victims to Medbay. I go back through to Robotics and exit via disposals.
• Head up towards Primary Tool Storage and fumble inventory, setting banana grenade off in my hand and slip on peels, taking some burn damage.
• Hack gateway airlock to get to the medkit inside and heal burns. I decide to see what's on the other side of the gateway. It's the Soviet Station so I grab the telekinesis injector and robust the NPC Soviet with my mystical flying toolbox.
• Find some shades and a syndicate toolbox. Uniform complete!
• What!? Those knuckleheads in security left the locker in the Security Checkpoint open! I hack the airlock and take a stun baton, a sec HUD and security bowman headset, I swap the encryption key into my headset. Nobody sees me doing any of this.
• I get healed again and head around to science maintenance and run into Chase Pavlov (Security Officer) who decides that my beautiful syndicate brand 'suspicious toolbox' looks suspicious (He’s not wrong). He asks to search but we're on Code Green, so I refuse since I'm carrying around a fair bit of security gear now. I hear him ask the HoS for permission over sec comms and it’s granted, so I slip him on the syndicate soap and run away.
• I run and hide in Security Maintenance and listen to them on comms talk about me. A mechanic who also has sec comms makes light of the situation, I decide to add to the farce by throwing in a few comments too and at least some of the sec seem amused.
• A security borg had set my wanted status and added the comment “possible sabotage” I use the security HUD to remove my wanted status.
• I slither my way through maintenance like a sneaky little snek to EVA where I hack my way in and steal an EVA suit. I make my way to the Arrivals airlock and grab some O2 before heading out into space without being noticed.
• I removed my wanted status a second time and skirt my way around the station and head South from the AI satellite and exit the Z level. I'm free and clear of the station. *BWOINK*
• Abydos2 PMs me and asks me if I know why I am being prodded. I say that I don’t know because even though it is a fair guess that it’s related to security being after me, I also didn’t properly clean up that banana grenade earlier and so maybe someone got caught out by it?
• They tell me it’s because I stole security items and am drawing attention to myself over security comms. I explain that I took the security gear from a locker, that Chase wanted to search me on green and that I wasn’t trying to draw attention to myself. They question this by asking why I spoke on comms and I state that I did it after they already wanted me.
• They tell me that I got telekinesis early, that security were within their rights to search me and that I took the attempted search to be justification to steal from security and other areas and taunt them on comms. They tell me that I am self-antagging and that I have repeatedly removed my own wanted status.
• I try to explain that security are getting themselves worked up, that I’ve now left the station and haven’t said anything else on comms. I also add to my earlier point that I spoke on comms after I was already wanted and after a Mechanic had also spoke over them.
• They tell me that it does not excuse breaking the rules and quote the portion from the Self-Antagging section that pertains to directing security away from an active threat. They also accuse of me of me trying to get revenge against Chase for wanting to search me.
• I get defensive and tell them that is not what happened and that I’m going to remove myself from the round so that I can talk properly. I was juggling O2 canisters, choking to death and people were PDAing me about someone requesting I be executed (lol). Incidentally Security had also worked out how to set my wanted status so that I could no longer remove it.
• I try to explain that I did not have a grudge against Chase but they now tell me that it’s not open for discussion and inform me that I’m getting a warning for the behaviour. I tell them that I do not agree with what they’ve been saying and that I’ve had similar situations play out without any issue. They once again tell me that it’s not up for discussion and not to do it again. I tell them that they are wrong and emphasis I’m unhappy at the conversation being suddenly terminated but I agree not to do it again.
• A few minutes go by and the Captain announces they’re now going to blue alert because of me, even though I’ve not been seen since slipping Chase and have been dead in space for several minutes. dead chat ask me about what happened and I moan to them that the situation is STILL being escalated without my involvement I also imply that resisting security at all is now “shaky ground”. A few more minutes go by…*BWOINK*
• Abydos2 PMs me to inform me that because of my comments in dead chat and because of my bad attitude that they and another admin think I should take some time to go read the rules and cool off. I anticipate a permanent ban and tell them I was thinking of leaving anyway if the interpretation of rules is going to keep changing. I reiterate that I was not trying to escalating or get revenge and say good bye and a 24 hour ban is applied.

So, that’s what happened as best as I can reconstruct it without turning this into War and Peace.  I believe that there were a few errors and missed opportunities in the process that stopped us from properly resolving the issue that perhaps could have gone a little better.

1. There was some confusion about the chain of events. I didn’t really put it together until afterwards but the Admin incorrectly believed that I had taken the security equipment AFTER the stop and search but it was the other way around. I ran from the stop and search because I was already carrying the security equipment. It’s possible that snapshots of my activity gave this appearance, which is probably why they suspected a revenge motive.
2. I think the application of the self-antagging rule in this case was overly zealous. I had committed a minor crime (B&E and Theft) and did nothing to draw attention to it. By sheer bad luck I got stopped and opted to resist arrest, which I know there is some allowance for. I did speak on comms and give the game away but only after I was already wanted and after another person spoke up from the DJ Station. It was also still Code Green so there was no active threat that was being diverted from at that time. The situation escalated even after my escape and death, showing that I was not the only driving factor.
3. I explicitly removed myself from the round to focus on the Admin PM only to be told straight away that there was no discussion to be had. I think it was in error to terminate it at that point, with a bit more time we might have been able to clear up some of the details. When I was telling the admin that they were wrong it was because the version of events they were telling me did not match up to what I had done, I wanted that conversation to go somewhere.
4. The ban reason given contains a few factual errors, some of that is a direct result of point 1 above but I’m also misquoted to sound like I was more upset about the toolbox, which was closer to their opinion on my motive rather than what I actually said. The ban reason also contends that I showed a bad attitude in PM but I don’t think that was the case. I think it’s fair to say I was a little over the line in some of what I said in dead chat and I’m sorry for that, I was a little worked up and not exercising my best judgement in that moment.

 

[Abydos]

Admin's version of events:

To start off with this whole thing, let us first look at your interactions with Chase Pavlov.

 

Spoiler

[2019-07-08T23:10:37] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,110,1): May I see your bag?
[2019-07-08T23:10:46] SAY: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (190,111,1): nah, we're on green
[2019-07-08T23:10:48] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,109,1): And the toolbox.
[2019-07-08T23:10:51] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,109,1): Suspicious.
[2019-07-08T23:11:20] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,109,1): I have a guy with a suspect toolbox, gloves, belt, running away from atmos failure. Can I search?
[2019-07-08T23:11:33] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,109,1): Please stay out while I wait for a resoponse from the HoS.
[2019-07-08T23:11:35] SAY: Grizwald Everard (110,172,1): Yes.
[2019-07-08T23:11:38] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,111,1): Alright, he okayed it.
[2019-07-08T23:11:42] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,111,1): Atmos maint!
[2019-07-08T23:11:46] SAY: Chase Pavlov (190,111,1): Robert Ponod.

He was being kind, polite and not just stunning you randomly. You were running away from a legit situation that marked you suspicious, and responded by slipping security. That whole time afterwards, you started being a thorn in security's side.. constantly removing your own wanted status, breaking into more areas and even taunting them over their own comms. Security got a point where they couldn't communicate because they believed their comms to be listened to by you, which is correct.

Spoiler

[2019-07-08T23:14:29] SAY: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (150,176,1): hey you guys wanted to stop me for having a red and black toolbox on green
[2019-07-08T23:14:35] SAY: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (150,176,1): ain't my fault
[2019-07-08T23:14:43] J.O.E set secstatus of  Robert Pond to *Arrest*, comment: Possible sabotage
[2019-07-08T23:15:44] SAY: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (150,176,1): possible sabotage my ass
[2019-07-08T23:16:00] ADMIN: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) set secstatus of  Robert Pond to None, comment: (none)
[2019-07-08T23:17:30] ADMIN: Eric Graf set secstatus of  Robert Pond to *Arrest*, comment: In possesion of sec comms
[2019-07-08T23:19:35] ADMIN: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) set secstatus of  Robert Pond to None, comment: (none)
2019-07-08T23:28:40] ADMIN: Grizwald Everard set secstatus of  Robert Pond to *Execute*, comment: Repeatedly lowering self from wanted.

You were deliberately antagonizing security as a non-antag, purely because you believed they were "Attempting to steal your toolbox". That was when I had noticed and decided to bwoink you over the matter. This is our full conversation.
 

Spoiler

[2019-07-08T23:24:27] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Hi there.

[2019-07-08T23:24:34] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Hi

[2019-07-08T23:24:41] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Any idea on why I'd be prodding you?

[2019-07-08T23:24:56] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Not really

[2019-07-08T23:25:14] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Might it have something to do with you stealing security items, drawing security's attention to deal with you?

[2019-07-08T23:26:02] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I took these from an open locker in the checkpoint and the only reason they're making a fuss is because Chase wanted to search me on Green Alert

[2019-07-08T23:26:43] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I didn't go out of my way to draw attention, I did the crime tried to stay undetected and avoid capture

[2019-07-08T23:26:51] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): By announcing yourself on their comms?

[2019-07-08T23:27:47] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: they already knew at that point, when I slipped chase and ran away from the random search

[2019-07-08T23:28:36] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): No, you got telekensis pretty early in round start, someone thought you were suspicious and asked to search you which they are allowed to do. You took that as justification to steal from security areas, start taunting them on their comms, break into areas to steal more stuff and all for the whole purpose of, as you quote. "hey you guys wanted to stop me for having a red and black toolbox on green. ain't my fault."

[2019-07-08T23:29:02] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): You're self-antagging. And now you are repeatedly removing your own wanted status.

[2019-07-08T23:29:48] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Look, they're making a fuss and getting themselves more and more rriled up over this thing, I've left the station and not said anything else to them

[2019-07-08T23:30:20] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I didn't try to escalate this at any point, I said something on comms but so did another mechanic, they assumed he was over on DJ station

[2019-07-08T23:30:32] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: so since someone else said something, so did I

[2019-07-08T23:30:48] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): It still doesn't excuse you to break our rules, that state and I quote. "Minor criminal activity is allowed as a Non-Antagonist. However, it will be considered Self-Antagging if it negatively affects a significant portion of the crew, or is done without any reasonable IC justification and/or provocation; Actively diverting Security personnel and resources away from an active and direct Antagonist threat in order to deal with you and your actions will be considered Self-Antagging;" 

[2019-07-08T23:31:12] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): You're only attempting to get "revenge" against security because someone wanted to search you.

[2019-07-08T23:31:13] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Woah woah, hold on...that is not what happened

[2019-07-08T23:31:53] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Ok, sec I'm gonna remove myself from round here so I can deal with this properly and not try to stay alive in space and talk

[2019-07-08T23:32:46] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I wasn't trying to get revenge on Chase I don't hold a grudge against the guy

[2019-07-08T23:32:58] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): This isn't a discussion or a debate, you are being told to stop self-antagging for poor reasons, all because someone ASKED to search on green. He didn't attack you, he didn't stun you, he asked you and you're using that as justification to screw around with security. 

[2019-07-08T23:33:09] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): You're being warned about this behaviour.

[2019-07-08T23:33:48] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I don't agree with most of what you've said or your interpretation of it

[2019-07-08T23:34:25] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I've had rounds where this exact sort of scenario has played out and zero issue, now sudenly the rules are different without being different

[2019-07-08T23:35:42] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Again, this isn't a discussion or a debate. Minor crimes are fine.. running around with full security gear, taunting security, making it so security is afraid to speak of things on their own comms and having to constantly hunt and search for you, removing your own wanted status for the sake of someone having asked to search you on green is not.

[2019-07-08T23:36:03] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Do not do such things again in the future.

[2019-07-08T23:37:41] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2/(Kiyatakikahi): You know what you are wrong but fine NO DISCUSSION

[2019-07-08T23:37:56] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2/(Kiyatakikahi): I won't do it again

You then decided to add into deadchat.

Spoiler

[2019-07-08T23:39:17] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): well what a terrible round
[2019-07-08T23:42:37] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): I fucking killed myself, went off into space AND THEY'RE STILL ESCALATING
[2019-07-08T23:42:50] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING AT AL
[2019-07-08T23:43:00] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): but oh no...I'm the one who is MAKING them do this
[2019-07-08T23:43:16] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): yeah I got it from sec checkpoint that they left open
[2019-07-08T23:43:37] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): chase wanted to search me on green, I slipped him and ran off
[2019-07-08T23:43:54] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): and they keep ramping up and up and somehow t'm antagging them
[2019-07-08T23:45:56] DEADCHAT: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond) (161,147,3): any level of resistance to security for minor crime is shaky ground when they decide to keep making a fuss

So with all this information to light, let's consider it all together:

• You broke into an area and stole security gear.
• You passed an area that was certainly sabotaged by an antag. A security officer saw you and deem'd you suspicious.
• He asked for your permission to search you, you denied him. He asked for permission from the HoS (Which he is allowed to do),  you then slipped him and run off.
• Security has you in their sights now, and you are not an antag. You start breaking into other areas, taunting security so they are afraid to speak on their own comms and constantly removing your own status to the point where they have to set you to execute.
• After I had dealt with you, you continued to go on about the situation in dead chat about how you are innocent of everything, and it's securitys fault instead.

All while an active cult threat was on the station, that security was starting to learn about. But with them having to focus on you instead, caused more harm for the crew in general.

Speaking with two other admins on at the same time and seeing all this happening, we agreed to have a temp 24 hour ban. I told you at the time, this would be happening.

Spoiler

[2019-07-08T23:56:20] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2>HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond): Hello again. Judging from your comments, your attitude within them and dead chat, as well as talking to the other admins. We believe you need a cool-off period. You should use this time to familiar yourself with the rules and have a break.

[2019-07-08T23:56:42] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: Funny you should say that

2019-07-08T23:57:09] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I was about to tell you guys I don't think this server is for me, especiallty when you change the interpretation of rules on a daily basis

[2019-07-08T23:58:05] ADMIN: PM: HyperionAlpha/(Robert Pond)->Abydos2: I HONESTLY did not escalate that situation or try get "revenge" or any of the stuff you said, so yes, this is good bye but thanks for the good times anyway

[2019-07-08T23:59:43] ADMIN: Abydos2 has banned hyperionalpha for 1440 minutes
[2019-07-08T23:59:43] Reason: As a non-antag civilian, when a security officer asked to search him on code green, slipped the officer and started using the situation to justify his actions against security. Stealing full security gear from a locker (HUD, baton, headset), taunted security, specifically stated that it wasn't his fault because "You lot wanted to steal my toolbox on green" which wasn't true. Kept removing his own wanted level and drawing security's attention specifically to him. When an admin spoke to them, was poor in attitude towards the admin in both private conversation and dead chat. Take a break for a while.

Admin's reasoning for actions:

The reasons for my actions were simple. You were self-antagging, and blaming security for  your actions. Security had no knowledge you had gear on you, you slipped an officer and ran off from a suspicious situation.. and kept ramping up more. You then decided to bring it up in deadchat to players who had nothing to do with the situation.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing or disputing of:

I do dispute this.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Abydos

[necaladun]

While the ban reason can be updated with the sequence of events matching, that's really just a minor error there.

In general this comes under pretty standard self-antagging, whereby a non antag robs and evades security - of security items, mind you, something quite dangerous.

This falls under general greytide policies, whereby if everyone were to act in this way, there would be mass chaos. Tragedy of the commons sums this up quite well usually.

Stealing security gear makes you a threat, and it can be assumed that someone who steals such gear is going to use it for nefarious purposes - eg, an antag. Acting in a way that makes you out to be an antag is against the rules.

Stealing sec gear just to run around and be annoying to security is also known as "being a dick". Intentionally annoying other players is a pretty crappy way to act...as well as kinda insane. Robbing security just for "lulz" would be considered completely insane by IC standards. 

Blaming security for "making a fuss" is a..pretty poor attitude. It's literally their job to "make a fuss" when you commit multiple crimes. You cannot expect them to just let someone get away with crimes like that. 

The only issue I see here is the error in the ordering of events in the ban, apart from that, I see no merit to this complaint.