IPC EMPs

[DerpehBoi]

When IPCs get hit with an emp it shouldnt always be a game-ender. As we all know an IPC getting EMP'ed causes severe brute and burn along with internal damage causing instant death. I feel this is unfair because, as stated, it can be very often a game ender. I feel that instead of instantly damaging an EMP should cause a 15-20 second knockout depending on the source of the EMP (grenade, flashlight, etc). This is plenty of time to do whatever malicious needs you plan since they take extra brute and burn and are easy to remove the brain via commonly accessible tools. As a spam proof measure EMPs should not stack up, meaning spamming the flashlight doesnt reset the time or multiple grenades doesnt add more time, and such like that, and there is a 5 second cooldown after them waking up and being able to get up so that you cant knock em right back down again causing no chance to escape. To me this seems like a good way to balance instakilling IPCs as there arent much ways to instakill other species.

[procdrone]

IPCs are very easy to repair, have no death timer (so you can revive them after a long time being dead).

Such change, I feel is not necessary, given how easy is to fix a machine person, compared to an organic.

[davidchan]

25 minutes ago, procdrone said:

IPCs are very easy to repair, have no death timer (so you can revive them after a long time being dead).

Such change, I feel is not necessary, given how easy is to fix a machine person, compared to an organic.

Death timer doesn't matter. Cloning exists. And like cloning, after 20+ minutes of being dead the player may not be interested in returning to the round if they are still there.

IPCs are no easier to repair than any organic is to heal. In fact, it takes much more effort to heal IPCs than it does to heal organics even without considerations for things like NewCrit.

BS You say? Oh I argue strongly. Welders heal 15 damage max and a cable coil heals 3 per length with a max of 24 burn heals, compare to brute and burn kits healing 25 each. Chemistry patches can heal much more than this, with styptic, silver sulf and synthflesh all capable of healing 100+ damage across the entire body instantly.

But welders and cabling are common! They say, but round start a very generous estimate puts there to be maybe 10-15 complete sets of tools in public access, with 30+ assistants in a round if you don't grab them immediately they won't be available to an IPC hoping to repair themselves after the first 5 minutes of a round. But Cargo and Science can make more tools! And Medical and Science can make more healing patches. Far easier and without reliance on Mining to do a thing. Botany can make healing plants and anything with nutrition will heal the organic that eats, so the Chef's food, the donuts in security to the junk food in vendors will all heal an organic based upon how much nutrition, protein and vitamins are in the plant.

But IPC surgery can be done anywhere! So can organic surgery. IPC limbs break faster and break from more sources. Burns don't break organic limbs, but IPCs need surgery after eating a few lasers. Going into crit doesn't cause an organic's ribcage to suddenly implode. But an IPC takes constant brute while in crit across their whole body, meaning a single person trying to repair 200~ damage may find themselves repairing over 400 because of how asinine the repair goes. IPCs also bleed from less damage dealt to them compared to organics, and do not regenerate their oil blood at all, where as organics can regenerate blood from food, saline and iron intake. 

TL;DR Easy to Damage, Easy to Repair is a myth. Only the easy to damage part is true. In every other sense organics have advantage when it comes to reliable means to heal and return to a round if their body can be found. If IPC buffs were nearly as potent as people made them out to be, how come nobody uses Prosthetic limbs, which are available to literally everyone and carry all the same pros and cons as IPC self repair. Because IPC healing is inconvenient at best and a time and effort time sink in its worst cases where the tools available to heal robotic crew are laughably underpowered compared to anything a competent medical bay can accomplish.

[McRamon]

Here is what i think about it. Emp should stay as an ultimate way to assassinate an ipc. If you are to approach an ipc with intent to kill them, emp must make the job. HOWEVER, while i dont play ipc, i think in certain situations they might feel of it to be a bit unfair.

You say its even harder to fix ipc? Well, if you are my target and you are organic, i will make you unrevivable at all, like.. at all. No way back, no matter how good the doctors are. And i dont even need emp. 

But, imagine you are an ipc nt rep casually sitting on bridge. An evil tator comes to assassinate a "front of bridge audience" who is also an ipc, or if not, maybe tator just uses emp to disable comms. Or you are just a walking by witness. Or one of many other situations, where you are not an original target. In that case, it is not fair that there is a chance that you round ends in a second.

What if - emp places ipc into a station of special crit, where you are unconscious and die if a little bit of force is applied to you. So, instead of outright killing ipc, emp instead would make them almost dead, and for a traitor to finish the job, it would require like two crowbar hits. Not a big difference for traitors. If you dont get additional hits, in about 30-60 seconds you recover from that state, with just some damage. Basically what DerpehBoi suggested, but a bit deeper.

Antag-ipc interactions would stay the same, but ipc-accidentempnearby interactions would be a bit more fair

[ZN23X]

Oh no... not this again...

[John_bigless]

All my yes on this.

Assasinating an IPC shouldn't be as easy as getting a flashlight for 2 TC, using it in front of like 3 other people, and then spacing the target's corpse. Leave out the last step if all you want to do is loot them.

Killing someone, anyone shouldn't be this easy.

[quintaessentia]

Bold = quinta essentia

While we are on Antag-IPC interactions, i just wanted to point something out.

Imagine:

You are an IPC player casually walking along the hallway and suddenly.....

You only get a glimpse of one of these pesky revenants as it slowly fades into its invulnerable state and laughs at your lifeless body and you just realize that you will have nothing to do for atleast the five following minutes. (As far as i know it aren't really EMPs ,but they still instakill you.)

Happens more frequently then i would like it to happen and looses the whole point of having antags: making the round more interresting.

What i just stated is the same with traitors if you are their target and with cultists if they should gather to make an huge EMP as an IPC. However IPCs are not the only ones effected by EMPs, organics with robotics limps and organs will get screwed over too. But with an IPC you will be sure they will be dead after an EMP, a organic with a Cybernetic Hearth however will be much more unlikly to be targeted with EMPs. Then there are magic missiles that could ruine everyones round, which leads me to the following statement:

Space station 13 was never and will never be a balanced game and we all kind of know that. (As i am rereading this i realize this is a killer argument [I don't know the proper term.] or rather applies to every balance discussion and doesn't add anything to it. However i still like this phrase... i didn't remove it, did i?)

I think that we should try anyways.

So.... i am on the same side as Nathan, just too easy.

To davidchan, i agree with nearly everything you stated, however you should consider being an IPC saves you the walk to medbay unless you carry medics with you. Which is unlikely unless you work in medbay, are doing scichem or are a cautious member of security.

[procdrone]

23 hours ago, davidchan said:

Death timer doesn't matter. Cloning exists. And like cloning, after 20+ minutes of being dead the player may not be interested in returning to the round if they are still there.

IPCs are no easier to repair than any organic is to heal. In fact, it takes much more effort to heal IPCs than it does to heal organics even without considerations for things like NewCrit.

BS You say? Oh I argue strongly. Welders heal 15 damage max and a cable coil heals 3 per length with a max of 24 burn heals, compare to brute and burn kits healing 25 each. Chemistry patches can heal much more than this, with styptic, silver sulf and synthflesh all capable of healing 100+ damage across the entire body instantly.

But welders and cabling are common! They say, but round start a very generous estimate puts there to be maybe 10-15 complete sets of tools in public access, with 30+ assistants in a round if you don't grab them immediately they won't be available to an IPC hoping to repair themselves after the first 5 minutes of a round. But Cargo and Science can make more tools! And Medical and Science can make more healing patches. Far easier and without reliance on Mining to do a thing. Botany can make healing plants and anything with nutrition will heal the organic that eats, so the Chef's food, the donuts in security to the junk food in vendors will all heal an organic based upon how much nutrition, protein and vitamins are in the plant.

But IPC surgery can be done anywhere! So can organic surgery. IPC limbs break faster and break from more sources. Burns don't break organic limbs, but IPCs need surgery after eating a few lasers. Going into crit doesn't cause an organic's ribcage to suddenly implode. But an IPC takes constant brute while in crit across their whole body, meaning a single person trying to repair 200~ damage may find themselves repairing over 400 because of how asinine the repair goes. IPCs also bleed from less damage dealt to them compared to organics, and do not regenerate their oil blood at all, where as organics can regenerate blood from food, saline and iron intake. 

TL;DR Easy to Damage, Easy to Repair is a myth. Only the easy to damage part is true. In every other sense organics have advantage when it comes to reliable means to heal and return to a round if their body can be found. If IPC buffs were nearly as potent as people made them out to be, how come nobody uses Prosthetic limbs, which are available to literally everyone and carry all the same pros and cons as IPC self repair. Because IPC healing is inconvenient at best and a time and effort time sink in its worst cases where the tools available to heal robotic crew are laughably underpowered compared to anything a competent medical bay can accomplish.

You make a very bad example. you only compare IPCs to Humans. We have quite few unclonable races, which machine people, include to. 

None of the unclonable races have same ease of revival like machine people do. Imagine finding a vox after 30 minutes. that will be fun to revive with all limbs septic and organs dead.

This is what I meant with the death timer. IPC bodies do not rot or expire. They can be fixed in robotics after ANY amount of time.

Also, you mention limbs. Yes. IPC limbs act like "broken" after certain damage, but you forget to mention that you can easily fix that damage on spot. While everyone else needs to visit medbay for bone repair, or IB repair, which takes few lengthy operations.

Want more? Okay. In 9 out of 10 situations robotics have their own lathe stacked with resources. Access to base materials to fix an IPC is staggeringly easy. Metal is the most common resource available and often in abundance. 

Tools can be easily found in multitudes of toolboxes, tool vendors, and work areas. Almost every engineer and half the station haves cables and welders on hand. Good luck trying to fix someones IB far from medbay. You say ghetto surgery? Yeah. Good luck with the procents, you can actually leave your patient in a worse state than they started with.

Not to mention, any IPC player is likely to have tools for repair on themselves. Healing materials for organics are not that commonplace. Pleading that a tider took "all" the tools is a poor argument, really. And untrue.

IPCs are straightforward to repair and quite easy at it. Stop saying its not. I am repairing IPCs, I know it is easy.  Stop being biased.

As for the EMP. you would go better off making a different argument.

"EMP is too strong." Its like emag, it has so many things you can do with it. EMP lockers to make em open, airlocks to crowbar them open, almost all items and station equipment can be easily flipped with an EMP. For example, you could easily EMP that officer trying to arrest you. Now his radio is dead, his taser our of juice, his flash out of juice, and he only have the harmbaton.

I can agree though, Shutting off IPCs with an easily affordable flashlight might be too much and could be up to debate. It certainly feels unfair. But thats it. Do not make IPCs resistant to EMP. make EMP less effective from the flashlight. Leave EMP implants and grenades alone - maybe the said flashlight could use a little nerf? Since you love to use it as an argument so much. 

Just as a closing note. IPCs are a very unique race. In all aspects. And its their unique quirk. They die easy. Fragile papersheets losing limbs left and right. not fit for combat. If you play them anyway but ignore the downsides, maybe try another race? If you really need to be synthetic, a reminder, borgs are more resistant to EMP.

Its just like advocating that Vox should start with breathing implants because oxygen is toxic. We just have different quirks for races and that is all. deal with it, or not. Humans are absolutely average.

And someone noticed. This is SS13. This is not a pvp game where everything has  to be perfectly balanced for combat. Its RP game. 

[Dinarzad]

26 minutes ago, procdrone said:

Not to mention, any IPC player is likely to have tools for repair on themselves. Healing materials for organics are not that commonplace. Pleading that a tider took "all" the tools is a poor argument, really. And untrue. 

You have clearly never looked at the Tool Storage room mid-round. That places becomes a barren wasteland.  Wrenches an the like are still there, and they are also worthless for what we're talking about, welder and cables are the only thing that matter. Cable is easy. Welder is almost always gone, even then the hacked super welders you get from enabling contraband on the youtool vendor.

 

28 minutes ago, procdrone said:

IPCs are straightforward to repair and quite easy at it. Stop saying its not. I am repairing IPCs, I know it is easy.  Stop being biased.

Just because you say things doesn't make them true. I can also say "Fixing organics is easy, stop saying it isn't, stop being biased" but it really doesn't do anything for an argument except be needlessly confrontational. You act like people who play IPCs some how don't know the systems or mechanics required to heal organics as if they didn't play a human to get the required 15 karma to unlock IPC to begin with, or that they haven't moved on to other races since then.
So instead, let's do a comparison. your AVERAGE Medical injury is solved by one, perhaps 2 Synthflesh patches, maybe some Charcoal or a broken bone which needs surgery.
Your AVERAGE IPC injury requires a trip to robotics, because even though the damage isn't that bad, it's over the threshold to be unable to be repaired with surface welding/cables, so basically, suergery on all the effected areas, and refilling any lost oil because unlike organics, the oil will never regenerated.
 

33 minutes ago, procdrone said:

None of the unclonable races have same ease of revival like machine people do. Imagine finding a vox after 30 minutes. that will be fun to revive with all limbs septic and organs dead.

This is what I meant with the death timer. IPC bodies do not rot or expire. They can be fixed in robotics after ANY amount of time

Here's the problem. all that septic surgery and dead organs you just mentioned, how painful it is to revive?
Welcome to every single IPC who has ever been EMPed, ever. Given you SAY you are repairing IPCs I should think you would know that an IPC who is hit by an EMP is fried across their entire body, every single 'organ' every single limb. But with IPCs we don't have the magical macguffins of chemistry to lean on, no Synthflesh, no Mitocholide, nothin. So that means surgical repairing every single limb, brute and burn, manually repairing every single organ with nanopaste (Assuming Science is polite enough to give you any, they mostly tell you to fuck off.) or printing out every single organ to replace.  It is a very long, very painful process, except instead of happening because you weren't found for 30 minutes, it happened instantly when you died because lol good joke.
Sounds pretty similar to finding a long desiccated corpse that gets SR'd to me.

 

40 minutes ago, procdrone said:

Yes. IPC limbs act like "broken" after certain damage, but you forget to mention that you can easily fix that damage on spot.

[CITATION VERY MUCH NEEDED]
This is 100% untrue in every single respect.  IPCs that take damage over a certain threshold can no longer fix their own bodies with welders or cables and it absolutely requires a roboticist to open the limb up and do an equivalent to broken bone surgery. So no. You cannot fix that on the spot and you still need mandatory surgery just like organics.  The whole point here was "Easy to damage, easy to fix" right? Well then why in Nar-sie's tits is this a thing? Sure sounds to me like IPC repair and Organic repair are sounding very, very similar except one of thme is paper and the other is not.

 

44 minutes ago, procdrone said:

Just as a closing note. IPCs are a very unique race. In all aspects. And its their unique quirk. They die easy. Fragile papersheets losing limbs left and right. not fit for combat. If you play them anyway but ignore the downsides, maybe try another race?

What the actual fuck is this logic?
"If you don't like it just stop playing it."  Like.... like what?
Uhh. No. How about if something is very obviously so obnoxiously and hilariously not fun to play as that you have to tell people not to play it, maybe that's a sign your design is actually fucking bad. Like shit dude, why do anything at that point if you don't like it just go somewhere else screw iteration and improvement. Why should we even make any more PRs, clearly the people just need to learn "Love it or leave it" right?
 

49 minutes ago, procdrone said:

And someone noticed. This is SS13. This is not a pvp game where everything has  to be perfectly balanced for combat. Its RP game. 

Shit dude, you right.
Lemme just go make code changes to give Security Death Squad gear, because I mean lore wise, Cyberiad is an EXTREMELY Valuable asset, conducting highly advanced research on one of the most versatile and profitable materials in the known universe, the thing that MADE NT a mega-corp, clearly they'd want their station adequately protected and this is an RP game so we don't need to worry about silly things like game balance!
You try making that excuse to any fucking game designer or even just coders here about any other system and just watch it be laughed out of the room.

If you have to admit that it's broken and unbalanced and try to make excuses for that, maybe that's a sign it's ACTUALLY broken and unbalanced and that's not a fucking good thing.

[McRamon]

Well maybe emp should only damage "organs" and not limbs

[Ziiro]

Something something doomed to repeat it

[WingedYordle]

Maybe don’t play as a toaster.

 It’s not like they can breath and avoid deadly diseases, easily repair minor injuries, don’t have to go far to “eat”, become victims to changelings or vampires, risk having infections or septic limbs, list goes on. 
 

Each race will have their own pro and cons about something. EMPs actually effect my Vulp which I choose to have happen just like Players choose to play as a toaster...IPC.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Trubus

[Fursamie]

1 hour ago, Trubus said:

Maybe don’t play as a toaster.

 It’s not like they can breath and avoid deadly diseases, easily repair minor injuries, don’t have to go far to “eat”, become victims to changelings or vampires, risk having infections or septic limbs, list goes on. 
 

Each race will have their own pro and cons about something. EMPs actually effect my Vulp which I choose to have happen just like Players choose to play as a toaster...IPC.

Echoing this, IPCs are immune to a lot of other things. Want to silently inject them with a sleepy pen? Forbidden. Want to release a deadly, manufactured virus and have them be patient 0? Forbidden. Want to suffocate them in a room or stuff a room theyre in with harmful gasses? Forbidden. EMPs should remain, not counting physical combat, the easiest way to counter IPCs because it's a bitch to kill one stealthily.

[Dinarzad]

2 minutes ago, Fursamie said:

EMPs should remain, not counting physical combat, the easiest way to counter IPCs because it's a bitch to kill one stealthily.

I'm not sure why so many people keeping taking this as "YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE EMPS!?!?!?!??!"

That's not even vaguely what people have suggested or mentioned neither in this thread nor over the years and the very fact people keep saying that just misleads OTHER people so it becomes a deafening echo chamber of misinformation. It's like spooking ONE individual causes them to shout something that was in no way even involved in the initial suggestion which spooks the rest of the group and causes horrible stagnation.

Nobody wants EMPs to no longer be a weakness. At all.
What people do want is the vulnerability LESSENED down OR for other Vulnerabilities to be reduced.

I will say this again to make sure it absolutely cannot be misconstrued yet again.

I and others do not want EMP's removed as an IPC Vulnerability. I do either want EMP's reduced in how much of a vulnerability they are, or I want the other nerfs that have stacked up over the years to be pulled BACK.
Because all those "BUT THEY SO OP" points people keep making ignore how much of a double-edged sword almost all of them are and how most of the advantages they used to have no longer exist.

Virus immunity? No Jesus Viruses either, it balances itself. Frankly beneficial viruses are infinitely more common then bad, so it's more of a nerf then a perk.
Genetics immunity? No X-ray vision powers or hulk or whatever other powers. It balances itself.
No Pain? A perk.
No Breathe? A perk
Immune to Chems? You're also immune to every single healing or beneficial chemical in the game, it balances itself. You do not get the good and you do not get the bad.
Radiation immunity? A perk
You take 50% more Brute and Burn damage, the most common sources in the game? A major con.
You heal yourself with Cables/Welders? A perk.
Welder immunity? A perk
Your limbs pop off with the slightest provocation? A major con.
You have "Blood" in the form of Oil, this blood does not regenerate naturally.  A con.
You cannot heal yourself if damage is over an easy to achieve threshold due to your damage multiplier? A con
You can still "Break" limbs and require surgery to fix? A con.
You can be instantly killed from a large range away through walls?  The biggest con that you can put ON a race.
You can survive without a head? Well your head pops off laughably easy and leaves you blind and deaf, so again, it rather balances itself.

The theme here is only OBJECTIVE good things IPCs have are pain immunity, No Breathing, Welder Immunity, No radiation and they can heal themselves through light damage, with easy to obtain tools.
But given your damage multiplier is so high you almost always need to get fixed up by a roboticist. Two to Tree hits with a toolbox is enough to put an IPC into a lethal situation.
And over time they've had "Blood" added into them and being able to "Break" bones in the form of a damage threshold they need internal repairs for and are no longer able to heal via surface applications of welders or cables.

I have Breath immunity, No organs (Other then a 'brain'), Regrowable limbs, Welder immunity AND 'blood' that I both regenerate and can refill from any basic sink as a slime person. And I STILL don't take 50% more damage from the majority of sources, don't have an instant kill mechanic and can still benefit from genetics and viruses and healing chemicals, while also being immune to Vampires.   Sure seems funny lookin' to me on the outside.
Their "Easy to break, easy to fix" design philosophy was up-ended in increments over a long period of time as now they bleed like humans and break bones like humans, except UNLIKE humans they also can instantly die through walls and take nearly double damage from the sources that 95% of crew will experience in an average shift.

Is it, therefore, so absolutely outlandish to ask that something be done since they were previously acknowledged as being relatively balanced and were then nerfed?
Is it absolutely unfathomable to think that telling people "Well yeah it's broken design and it's not fun but I mean you CHOSE not to have fun...." is a REALLY poor argument for game development and balancing? If you have to make something unenjoyable to play for the sake of balancing it, then the balance is shit and needs to be revised.

If you can't manage to kill an IPC, then I am sorry, but you're not trying.  2 TC for an EMP Flashlight. It's dead, Punch in the chest a few times, it's dead. Tool box it in the chest twice, it's dead. I can and have killed IPCs before while actively trying NOT to kill them, it's really not that hard. It is poor balance and I have grown increasingly annoyed with people making up specious reasons to excuse it.
It is BAD design.  I cannot make staff change it and I cannot make staff change their mind on the direction they've gone with it, but I absolutely refuse to just pretend like it is good just because of that. The very fact that this debate has come up several times over several years is living proof of it. It comes up again and again and again and it does so for a reason.

[Fursamie]

6 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

I'm not sure why so many people keeping taking this as "YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE EMPS!?!?!?!??!"

That's not even vaguely what people have suggested or mentioned neither in this thread nor over the years and the very fact people keep saying that just misleads OTHER people so it becomes a deafening echo chamber of misinformation. It's like spooking ONE individual causes them to shout something that was in no way even involved in the initial suggestion which spooks the rest of the group and causes horrible stagnation.

Nobody wants EMPs to no longer be a weakness. At all.
What people do want is the vulnerability LESSENED down OR for other Vulnerabilities to be reduced.

I see how it looks like that, my wording was poor - apologies. I just wanted EMPs to stay as lethal as they are, I didn't think it was suggested for it to be removed.

[quintaessentia]

I just wanted to give some examples on the the mechanics of an IPC Dinarzad explained, just for the sake of making them more understandable, and there typicall effects on a standard round to non-IPC players and to give those arguements more emphasis.

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Virus immunity? No Jesus Viruses either, it balances itself. Frankly beneficial viruses are infinitely more common then bad, so it's more of a nerf then a perk.

I am protected from the cold and don't have to drink orange juice. Yeah! Now really quick an comment on comms to this level 7 biohazard: J.4M. E. E.2 (Scientist) says, "Not my problem."

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Genetics immunity? No X-ray vision powers or hulk or whatever other powers. It balances itself.

I don't play geneticist as it's in my opinion the most boring job anyway and because this game mechanic was taken from me and so can't play this role effeciently. And seriously, when was the last time you had to stick with a dissabilty from genetics that wasnt fixed in five minutes?! No telecineses, no hulk, no chameleon, none! Taking the possability for a player to enjoy one of the common accesable game mechanics just because they choose to play a certain game style and giving them no substitute is a sign of bad game design.

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

No Pain? A perk.

No annoying messages in the chat box. I don't collapse if my arm is cut off, but if it doesn't only affected the arm i am still on the ground due to my legs popping of too.

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

No Breathe? A perk

I don't need to prepare myself for a space flight as much and i am always prepared if i should get near a breach, atleast partially.

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Immune to Chems? You're also immune to every single healing or beneficial chemical in the game, it balances itself. You do not get the good and you do not get the bad.

I love chemistry, it is my faveriote system in the game. My faveriote chem? Stable mutagene, the perfect disguise chem. But i will never be able to use it again as long as i am a loyal IPC player. But you can change your appereance as IPC too. Well, yes. I just need to debrain another IPC (you will need a good reasons to convince the admins to allow you to ruin another players round) or build an IRC and then get someone to put your brain in them. (I am still working on finding out what differenciates an IPC from an IRC, so the IRC may not be possible without a person you can trust or a loyal servant, as you still need to get on the shuttle or whatever your objective is) But i am getting of the subject here. The effects it has on one: no capulettium plus, no adrenalin. no fliptonium, no easily made drugs, no morphine, no strange reagent, no chems to skip normally required surgery (there is actually Liquid Solder, but for genetic damage its true), no pills, no hairgronium, no easy whole body affecting healing and no stable mutagene!

But look at the positive sides: nobody will poisen you and knock you out with chems! How many chemicals actually can knock you out that don't affect IPCs? Seven, three of which are only accesable by traitors, one only knocks you out after 2 minutes and half of the recipees to them are not easily made. Furthermore good luck injecting someone, if someone wears an armor or hardsuit you have lost anyways (and i believe there are multiple species immune to those too).

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Radiation immunity? A perk

I don't need to go into maints if the station passes through a radiation field.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You take 50% more Brute and Burn damage, the most common sources in the game? A major con.

You and a greytide ran into each other and pushed each other back and forth, till he decided to hit you half a dozen time with his bare fists into your chest? He is after ten minutes (including processing) free again, while you are waiting since twenty minutes for the roboticists to figure out how nanopaste or the simpliest surgery ingame works.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You heal yourself with Cables/Welders? A perk.

First of all you need to have these tools to make the magic work. Then you need to select every single body part to repair it (if your whole body is effected and you are efficient you will 'only' have to select only 5 then 11). If your arms are heavily damaged you will drop those tools during the procedure too. Helpful if you are a perfectionist and can't see this slightly yellow arm on your doll after somebody threw something accedantily at you.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Welder immunity? A perk

No need for a welding mask or goggles, you still get blinded though.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Your limbs pop off with the slightest provocation? A major con.

This arguement is one of the reasons why it takes so long to repair a dead IPC. You can't put them back on yourself, so you need somebody to do it for you. However as only 2/3 of the crew know that this is a thing and only 2/3 of these 2/3 know that tables are enough for it: Good luck.

Shot by the bartender with beanslugs? Some styptic powder and you are fine again. While as an IPC you try to find your head while stumbling blind along the tables.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You have "Blood" in the form of Oil, this blood does not regenerate naturally.  A con.

Incurse stamina damage if you dont have enough. There is only one tank on the whole station. One could make more with chemistry.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You cannot heal yourself if damage is over an easy to achieve threshold due to your damage multiplier? A con

Nothing to really add, negates the statement with repairing yourself. Also means you can't make spacewalks combined with the needed selections of the affected body part. It just doesnt heal enough and you need to select all body parts.

A major con that is too add. IPCs actually take extra damage while in crit, meaning it takes longer and you may loose the nearly dead IPC again. Another factor causing the time consumption it takes to bring a dead IPC back from the dead.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You can still "Break" limbs and require surgery to fix? A con.

Partially a con. Is disturbing if you repair yourself as stated before, however just fixing the damage on the arm will stop it from malfunctioning.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You can be instantly killed from a large range away through walls?  The biggest con that you can put ON a race.

If you plan on playing as an IPC expect to get your round ruined every second.

You know how many possabilities there are to cause an EMP?!

 

Yellow slime core

Chemistry (really easy to make too)

Being a cultist (if many are involved it could affect nearly the whole station)

Being a revenant (Malfunction ability i think it is)

Traitor flashlight

Traitor EMP grenade

Traitor EMP implant

Wizard EMP spell

Changeling EMP screech

 

Tell me if you got more.

6 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You can survive without a head? Well your head pops off laughably easy and leaves you blind and deaf, so again, it rather balances itself.

It is also fun if the roboticists forget that they need to put the sensors in your new head they made for you.

 

Ignorance of non-IPC players about the mechanics of IPCs

With that i mean being dragged to medbay, being put in certain machines to heal organics and being in the clonescanner for half an hour as IPC. Furthermore there are often new players playing roboticists as it is an easy job, interresting and because it doesnt leaves much room for improvment, causing experienced roboticists to not play this job so often. Another factor which causes IPCs to not be easily revived.

As a organic 5 to 10 minutes or less if you are the only dead person.

As an IPC 20 seconds to the rest of the round, with a tendency of 10 to 35 min with heavier injuries.

 

With this i am getting of the topic again.

IPCs have some interresting mechanics and are unique under all the races to play as, however they also loose many game mechanics.

Here is a visuall demostration what IPC players loose when it comes to health ingame.

And here what IPC players gain when it come to health ingame.

Furthermore IPC players only get to enjoy 16 of the 18 available antags and loose a lot of they could end up with situation.

The problem being there is no substitute for this.

 

So why do i play IPCs then?

It isn't about the game mechanics. I don't play IPCs to win. I play for the roleplay and IPCs are best suited for the personality i want to show ingame!

However if i could loose the ability to enjoy the game, with the personality another role/species wouldn't allow me to play, any second, then this is unbalanced.

Paradise is the perfect mix between RP and action they say.

Where is the RP then if get instantly killed by an antag without even looking them in the eye?!

You encourage RP, but yet where is this perfect mix you are talking about?

Where is this balance every game should seek to have?!

Space Station 13 was never and will never be a balanced game and we all kind of know that. It's the reasons there even are admins.

But by the universe!

This doesn't mean we should stop seeking perfectness.

We should always try to get closer to it!

One should never accept things like they are just because they are this way!

And IPCs are currently the weakest species of all.

If you never saw an EMP, play ten rounds as an IPC and you will see one.

If you are arguing against the point this discussion wants to make and havn't played as an IPC yet, do it.

One needs to experience it to truelly understand it, as it is with most things.

I don't want and will never accept this fact, that EMPs, Ions and what not can instantly kill you as an IPC.

There aren't even real methods to negate this problem!

The only one i know is hiding in a mech, but this won't prevent you from dying fairly long, as mechs are also vulnerable to Ions and EMPs!

Instant kills shouldn't be possible without a lot of preparations and situational factors.

 

[Lolzyking]

I'd be fine with Two emp's killing and one EMP being a 1-2 minute stun/sleep, with a minute of deaf/mute/blind afterwords.