Admin Note Policy and Transparency

[TullyBBurnalot]

Beg pardon if this was already said, but I haven't seen it, and I felt as if this much needed to be pointed out:

As someone who's been around with the Admin Staff since around early 2015, I can confirm that while we don't necessarily have a fixed policy on Notes (as we never really had fixed policy on most of anything), we've never shied away from sharing relevant Notes with the player they were written about; provided there was an actual reason to do so. This could include, but not be limited to:

• Ban Appeals/Admin Complaints where the exact content of a Note is relevant, usually when it describes a given event
• Requests for a change to a given Note should the person in question want to/prove that it is warranted
• Any given exceptional circumstance deemed legitimate enough after a player contacts a Head of Staff

Now, this might seem extremely flexible, and to a degree, it's designed to be. Every Admin writes Notes differently and on a different tone (mine, for instance, tend to be clinical and somewhat standardized, whereas someone like Dumbumn's might be small essays with a full description of events), on different situations and with different levels of what constitutes something "noteworthy", with variation even within the same Admin depending on extraneous factors (e.g, no one's going to Note down a civilian for breaking into Security to take their guns if all of Security is dead and there's a Xenomorph/Terror Spoder infestation; remove the infestation and we very well just might).

When it comes to revealing Notes, however, there's a point to be made that "secrecy for the sake of secrecy" is hardly the reason why those are hidden from players beyond the one they're relevant to (see above). Just a few off the top of my head:

• No one but the player in question has any actual reason to know the Notes of any other player. Like, at all. Those are Notes referring to things the Admins have found worthy enough to remember that apply only to this player. This, of course, only applies to the more radical "All Notes For Everyone" approach, but at the end of the day, it merely pushes the secrecy line one step forward, with the player now having to be the one to keep the Notes secret, unless they wish to see them go public. Additionally, this can very easily end up in a situation where a player's Notes affect the way that other people react to them, colouring their attitude and impression. This can be easily avoided by the player never revealing their Notes to anyone, which... well, see above for why all that does is gently nudge the goalposts. And how we already give people Notes if they have an actual reason to;
• Even with Notes being fully visible only to the relevant player, it should be noted that Notes are not an analogue to a criminal record. There's a good reason why we keep the Ban Appeals Accepted/Declined section public, because that is what ultimately ends up being a player's record. Notes, as the name implies, are often little more than footnotes kept in place to help the Admin staff make their decisions on any actual punishment/reward;
• On a more "selfish" perspective, as I'm sure most here are aware, SS13 has a rather active community on Reddit, which tends to veer towards the "less than civil", often with direct attacks on our server and its admin staff (and by often, read "mostly constantly over the past several years"). Considering that our Staff have been harassed, belittled, insulted and just out-and-out treated like complete shit, we can 100% see something like fully visible notes ending up giving even more ammunition to people who have been extremely vitriolic to us over far less. We'd rather not have our Admin staff think "How will this look like on the subreddit when I write it down?";
• Semi-related to the above, Notes are often very, very informal, not at all like the Ban Reasons you often see on the Appeals section. While Alffd has noted on the associated PR that he doesn't think this will lead to a situation where people will want to appeal Notes, because the system would just make him outright ban instead of spending time Note'ing people down, the fact of the matter is, thousands upon thousands of Notes exist. If we allow Bans to be appealed, there's no real reason not to let Notes be appealed for the sake of fairness, and quite honestly, considering that Notes often refer to very, very specific incidents, allowing players to contest Notes would grind down Admin bureaucracy to a complete halt. Not to mention what Alffd said to begin with: it becomes easier to just ban someone than it is to potentially open up a door for a Note contention

TL;DR: We already give people their exact Notes if they have an actual need for them, providing full transparency opens far more cans of worms than it solves problems

 

 

[necaladun]

4 hours ago, Allfd said:

Disagree, because everytime we do anything thats not visible in the notes, or a player discovers they have an invisible one, they will go full badmin on us in PMs.

My fear, is we are going to get a ton of note appeals, and then arguments about notes in ban appeals, and its going to make more work.

Same. Or I'll simply forget to add a note or not bother to because it was something so minor and they'll assume that I made it invisible. We already have a lot of bad faith assumptions and misinformation - this thread is a great example here - that people aren't going to assume the best at all.

3 hours ago, Coul said:

Denying players the ability to record admin feedback and improve upon it feels counter intuitive when the one of the points of appealing on the forum is ensuring the players learned from their mistakes before returning to the server, allowing players to see their notes helps support that exact same view.

Players are already able to record any interactions they wish. Players are able to appeal or raise concerns with notes already, in which case I have shown them on quite a few occasions - although this has more been for peace of mind with the player, as the notes generally have been incredibly minor. 

We are in no way denying players the ability to record admin feedback and improve upon it. This is just completely untrue.

3 hours ago, Coul said:

t I personally don't think it's a lot to hear someone out if they truly believe that a note given to them was unreasonable then I feel like they should be heard out as notes have weight on the actions of admins.

 

3 hours ago, davidchan said:

You can't have rules stating players are to respect admin judgments and be respectful to admins during discourse and wait to appeal such actions on the forums as appropriate and then immediately turn around and have admins judge and grade players on notes they have no means to review or dispute. 

If you want or demand the players to respect the admin decisions the admins have to respect the players enough to keep relevant information on how the players are tracked transparent. 

I have state in a previous post I'm happy to hear people out, have done so in the past, and that there are means to do so that have been used in the past repeatedly. 

If you wish your concerns to be heard by the admins, then you need to give us the courtesy of also listening to us when we reply to them. Having to repeatedly make these points in the same thread is incredibly frustrating.

It's incredibly disrespectful to the admins who are trying very hard to address these concerns and putting a fair bit of time and effort in to do so.

The idea that there is "no means to review or dispute" these notes is completely untrue. I very much hope this is because you just didn't bother reading what I had said, rather than the possible alternatives to that.

3 hours ago, davidchan said:

This argument of the need for secrets is simply false, if the information can't be shared with the relevant players it should not be saved at all.

We require secret tracking of things like VPNs, ban evasion, Metagaming, bug exploitation and server crashing, etc, as has been now stated repeatedly. Of course we have to save information like this. It's incredibly naive to think otherwise.

 

 

Overall this thread is showing me the problem here isn't that notes are private - it's false assumptions and incorrect information.

While I've tried to clear a lot of this up, it's incredibly disappointing that people are continuing to repeat things that we've taken the time to address and show otherwise.

I'll state again for hopefully the final time before the meeting:

The admin complaints forum can be used for reviews or disputes of notes.

You can contact admins to talk about your notes.

Headmins might be happy to reveal your notes to you.

We require information on ban evasion, metagaming, etc, to be secret, and this will not be changing.

 

 

 

[Calecute]

Rereading my post I think I wasn't completely clear.

The problem with this is that admins are basically working for free for us. Anything that gives them more work will reduce the poll of possible admins, leading to less admins and/or lower quality ones, and admins diverting time from old work to the new work that was added. Any new work we add should be valuable, at least as valuable as actually policing rounds and processing ban appeals, probably more valuable than that. 

I simply don't think public notes are valuable enough.

[Ralta]

5 hours ago, Birdtalon said:

Even if notes were made public the admins would keep secret notes regardless. I am a huge advocate for transparency and I wish notes were public myself - but unfortunately some things have to be kept private in order for the admins to do their jobs.

A halfway house would be to have public notes but with optional secret ones which the admins can use for confidential information. People can therefore look back over "official" warnings and the admins can still have their private notebook for confidential things. I don't think that would solve the distrust however.

This is almost exactly what I said in my post at the bottom of page 1. So...agreed?

[Eler00]

Personally I think this is a complete non-issue. People are just totally paranoid about notes and admins acting to 'get them'. Give those people access to some notes and they'll demand access to all notes. Give them access to all notes and they'll suspect admins are trashtalking them in asay/discord and demand access to that too or who knows what.

[Allfd]

8 hours ago, farie82 said:

In large this will also make admins be more aware about how they treat people. And see how different other admins do it. Yes it's a large group with different approaches to the adminning. But see it as a player. One round I could do X, even ahelped it. Next round I do X and get perma banned. Yes I'm going to complain and argue. But now I can't access direct proof since the notes are hidden. 

The team is not that big and we know each others approaches.  We see each others notes, and we see all PMs during the round.  We for sure know each others thoughts and preferences and we read the notes accordingly. 

Why did you not ahelp it the second round?  Why do you think the notes would have any context?

If we allow something rulebreaking, its certain that we took round context into consideration.  We are constantly tweaking things behind the scenes to control round flow, there is a reason we ask players to ahelp before performing certain actions.

8 hours ago, davidchan said:

If admins stand by all notes being appropriately applied and relevant why can't a player view them?

Because we don't all agree with them, and they are not staff decisions or an official record.  They are not even always complete.

This is going to get Reeed at (Which fits with this topic)  but I (alffd, not staff) take into account player reputation and response to PMs when I make a note.  If the warden says "Thx" in IC, and I PM them about it, and their response is something along the lines of "I knew it the moment I typed it, I am so sorry, it just came out, things where chaotic and my hands just responded without me thinking about it."  I am probably not going to write that down as a note.  We all make mistakes, and they know its a problem.

If their response was "Fine, but dude, its a game, lighten up.."  Well... they are getting a note, and their response is getting copy/pasted into the note.  The difference being, in the first case, player knew the rules, knew they made a mistake as soon as they did it, and explained why it happened."  They get it, and if it happens again it was probably an accident but the admin who PMs them can decide.

The second case, the player is willing to stop, but just to get me off their back in the conversation.  They are probably going to do it again, as the "Its a game" remark tends to be a good indication they don't take the rules seriously.

All the other admins on see this interaction (and we tend to work in groups due to timezones) and know it occured.  They know if a note was placed afterwords as we all see it announced in the chat window.  We know how each other handle these things.

We know each other, and we are often on at the same time and deal with the same players who share our timezone.  We have a bunch of context, and yes, we also ASAY about what you did behind your back, since we all see the PMs back and forth, we will interject with our opinions on ASAY.  You were not just interacting with a single admin, the rest of us may or may not have been discussing it with the person who PMed you.

  Everyone has notes. (any other admin reading this, check spacemansparks notes, they are amazing, you will lol.)

[Spacemanspark]

My notes are wonderful

[Calecute]

Now in favor of public notes so we can read  Spacemanspark's notes

[shazbot194]

Was anyone actually calling for anyone to view anyone else’s note? Because it seems to me people just want to see their own notes.

[Coul]

The thing about appealing your notes currently though, is that you need to know they’re there. If I wanted to appeal the notes I have I can’t even remember them off the top of my head and I’m currently not even sure how many I have

[shazbot194]

Why would you need to appeal notes? They are there for note keeping. From what I remember, they never get deleted, so why start now?

[Coul]

8 hours ago, necaladun said:

We are in no way denying players the ability to record admin feedback and improve upon it. This is just completely untrue.

Allow me to clarify, when I said denying players the ability I meant by allowing them to view there own notes, both admins and players have to juggle the game and the conversation and finding a way to record the discussion during all this is pretty cumbersome having this all handled in game would be more convenient and wouldn’t require as much maintainence for the players I guess that wasn’t clear

 

And my comment about saying that it’s not much to discuss notes with the players was more directed to the admins who said they did not want more work dealing with people and their notes, I was not implying admins don’t currently do this voluntarily I was simply saying that it’s worth the work to ensure players aren’t evaluated wrong - again I’m not implying admins evaluate anything wrong I’m simply saying that notes should be a correct indicators which I assume they are but again everyone makes mistakes and there are LOTS of notes.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Coul
More clarification

[Landerlow]

Notes really don't have to become public. There's no reason to and it'll do more harm than good. 

[Tayswift]

14 minutes ago, Coul said:

The thing about appealing your notes currently though, is that you need to know they’re there. If I wanted to appeal the notes I have I can’t even remember them off the top of my head and I’m currently not even sure how many I have

If an admin has admonished you for something in error, then you can make an admin complaint/Pm a headmin about that. I'm not sure why you would have to appeal notes from the past? Why would you need to appeal something weeks after it's happened? Just recently there was an admin complaint where an admin made an error in rule enforcement/warning and the corresponding note was fixed to reflect that correction. If you're waiting weeks after the fact to appeal a simple warning, then your memory will be unreliable anyways and won't help in terms of appealing that note.

12 minutes ago, Coul said:

I’m simply saying that notes should be a correct indicators which I assume they are but again everyone makes mistakes and there are LOTS of notes.

There are not lots of notes. Talk to a headmin. I think you're really overestimating the number of notes you have. The only reason you would have lots of notes is if you're a problem player, and if you are, you would know from multiple warnings and bans. The players that tend to accrue a lot of notes are players who are immature, lack impulse control, have anger issues, or are too self centered to play a cooperative RP game. You will know if you are one of these because you will be the constant target of admin PMs.

Keep in mind that for non-problem players like those of you chiming in on this thread, notes are rare or non-existent. But having to face constant rules lawyering and note appeals from the players that actually get notes? That's not a can of worms we want to open. This is called optimizing for the common case. The vast majority of the time, a note appeal is not going to be productive, and for those instances where an admin has actually made a mistake, we already have the means for appealing that.

[Ralta]

Here's my response from the Git, since Necaladun has asked we not discuss anything but code there:

"Boy oh boy, I do not understand the reactions here. It baffles me how admins can say things like "If this is merged, I'll just make all my notes private!". You've just made the case for transparency on your own; if you're intending to hide your notes, I dread to think what they might contain.

I say this as someone who has administrated for a variety of games at a variety of levels for years. I know everyone says "I was a headmin on this one server so I know my stuff" but I do system administration for a living and have done for some time; hiding responses from your clients is unprofessional and breeds an atmosphere of doubt ("If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" - I hate that particular concept, but some people tend to think that way). That said, private notes would exist purely to ensure admins have a way of communicating concerns about behaviour of a player privately (metagaming/comming, toxicity etc) and the player shouldn't even know they exist. They can ask if there's a secret note and the admin response will always be "I cannot tell you." This is literally how regular notes work now, so people would be no more likely to ask about private notes than they would about current notes.

In the event of admins abusing the private notes system, headmins intervene and slap the admin on the wrist. If an admin is incapable/uninterested in writing notes that are appropriate for public viewing, they should not be an admin, period.

Other servers work like this, so it's not like there isn't already precedent for using a public notes system and they seem to do just fine (except for Oracle - F). Irrespective of the decision made on this matter, admins shouldn't be showing their asses by announcing they'd flout the system; that makes you all look bad by association."

 

To admins saying things like "Player gets warning, wants to know the contents of the note", you tell them no, like you do right now for all notes. Although they shouldn't even know you've left a hidden message, so that point ought to be moot. 

[Da Dman234]

3 hours ago, Ralta said:

Here's my response from the Git, since Necaladun has asked we not discuss anything but code there:

"Boy oh boy, I do not understand the reactions here. It baffles me how admins can say things like "If this is merged, I'll just make all my notes private!". You've just made the case for transparency on your own; if you're intending to hide your notes, I dread to think what they might contain.

I say this as someone who has administrated for a variety of games at a variety of levels for years. I know everyone says "I was a headmin on this one server so I know my stuff" but I do system administration for a living and have done for some time; hiding responses from your clients is unprofessional and breeds an atmosphere of doubt ("If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" - I hate that particular concept, but some people tend to think that way). That said, private notes would exist purely to ensure admins have a way of communicating concerns about behaviour of a player privately (metagaming/comming, toxicity etc) and the player shouldn't even know they exist. They can ask if there's a secret note and the admin response will always be "I cannot tell you." This is literally how regular notes work now, so people would be no more likely to ask about private notes than they would about current notes.

In the event of admins abusing the private notes system, headmins intervene and slap the admin on the wrist. If an admin is incapable/uninterested in writing notes that are appropriate for public viewing, they should not be an admin, period.

Other servers work like this, so it's not like there isn't already precedent for using a public notes system and they seem to do just fine (except for Oracle - F). Irrespective of the decision made on this matter, admins shouldn't be showing their asses by announcing they'd flout the system; that makes you all look bad by association."

 

To admins saying things like "Player gets warning, wants to know the contents of the note", you tell them no, like you do right now for all notes. Although they shouldn't even know you've left a hidden message, so that point ought to be moot. 

The mistake you're making here is that the players aren't clients, and we aren't paid. I, personally, do not want to spend what could be hours of my time arguing with players over a note they don't agree with. Everyone seems to be vastly overestimating the use of the note system, and on top of that I'm noticing a ton of "Us vs. Them" mentality between admins and players. Admins do not log on to the server with the idea of "I'M GONNA MAKE X PLAYERS DAY REALLY SHITTY" we're here to play the game just like everyone else. Contrary to popular belief we do not give any significant amount of thought to players unless we receive direct reports that they're breaking the rules at the current moment. If you choose not to believe that and distrust us, that's on you.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Da Dman234

[TyOmaha]

"Did X, watch for more X, seems to be having issues with X keep an eye out"

Adminhelp: "Excuse me? I am not having issues with X. That other incident with X was well over 3 months ago and etc."

2 months later: "The only reason you're PMing me is because it says in my notes I am having trouble with X, that note is wrong because [insert argument that won't change the outcome of anything and just waste time]"

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ty Omaha

[necaladun]

Were it to become policy that warnings and the like were to become public, admins who hide notes without good reason would be dealt with.

But, that doesn't matter, because after discussing this with numerous players, staff, and staff of other servers, I am absolutely against this.

The current system we have is completely sufficient. Hopefully people with take the time to read what the staff have said here, and my own clarification on how disputing or reviewing notes can work, and stop spreading misinformation, or just outright bullshit.

I don't think continuing this thread will be at all productive. The points have been made, discussed, and I've come to a decision here.