Security cyborg buffs

[constatinus]

I think the security borg needs some buffs, he cant be just like some basic security officer. My proposal is to add a energy gun instead of a disabler, and a syringe gun or something else.

[Gaty]

I think giving sec borgs ranged lethals at round start for free would screw the balance a LOT, remember that you can still give borgs lethals tho you will need illegals 4 level and diamonds to do so.

I also think cyborgs are cool as they are and they don't need either a nerf or a buff.

[Kinnikonnie]

The sec borg 100% does not need a buff. They are strong already and if illegals are researched you get a lethal option. The sec borg is stronger than a normal officer in almost every regard if you ignore speed & lack of hands.

[constatinus]

7 minutes ago, Gaty said:

I think giving sec borgs ranged lethals at round start for free would screw the balance a LOT, remember that you can still give borgs lethals tho you will need illegals 4 level and diamonds to do so.

I also think cyborgs are cool as they are and they don't need either a nerf or a buff.

Yeah sure, but that illegals are very hard to research.. I think of putting these things for upgrades

[Gaty]

they are not that hard, you have to go out of your way to find illegals or just ask sec about them

[constatinus]

5 minutes ago, Gaty said:

they are not that hard, you have to go out of your way to find illegals or just ask sec about them

oh cool, i didnt know security could help about that

[necaladun]

Sec borgs will not be getting any buffs, more likely nerfs. They are incredibly powerful as it is. All access, immunity to chems, atmos, tazers, etc etc etc. 

[Spacemanspark]

Secborgs are just fine as is, with pros and cons that come with the territory. They sure as heck don't need lethals by default. 

[Jovaniph]

Secborgs shouldn't be stronger than security officers, period. I agree with neca on this. Cyborgs are borderline NPCs and majority of them (except the round start one) are joined by those who are observing the round. Especially if the AI/Cyborg are rogue. There needs to be security officers that can put a stop to them if it does.

[Eler00]

IMO, the main downside of a Borg vs. an officer should be the Borg being bound to its laws, but sec Borgs on paradise freely ignore crew antag orders and get out the harm batons so they really are just officer+

[Kyet]

Cyborgs should be stronger than normal sec officers, but they don't need further buffs on top of their existing advantages.

[Kinnikonnie]

12 hours ago, TDS said:

IMO, the main downside of a Borg vs. an officer should be the Borg being bound to its laws, but sec Borgs on paradise freely ignore crew antag orders and get out the harm batons so they really are just officer+

General Security Problem. There have been so many field executions lately that borgs even ignore the Crewsimov thing and will harmbaton even if your ID is not terminated.

I saw an unpowered Vampires brain get cut out like 15 minutes into the round yesterday so do not expect too much from Security at the moment.

[Tarhalindur]

On 8/29/2019 at 3:16 AM, Kinnikonnie said:

General Security Problem. There have been so many field executions lately that borgs even ignore the Crewsimov thing and will harmbaton even if your ID is not terminated.

I saw an unpowered Vampires brain get cut out like 15 minutes into the round yesterday so do not expect too much from Security at the moment.

Ahelp that if you see it again, it's not allowed.

[Machofish]

I think that security borgs are strong enough when it comes to infiltration antags: traitors, changelings, cultists, and vampires. Secborgs can also do some nasty work to Nuke Ops if they're smart about it.

As mentioned, the primary appeal of playing a cyborg is that they're immune to many of the hazards and stuns that would affect normal crew (though they have quite a few unique vulnerabilities of their own).  The addition of all access and a direct camera link shared by the AI makes security cyborgs a real pain for infiltration antags. Security borgs used to be much stronger before a nerf that was implemented some time ago. In particular, old security borgs could sustain considerably more damage before losing their equipment modules, and were easier to repair. Cyborgs still have the ability to fulfill the role of a heavily-armored 'door kicker' for the rest of sec to follow when clearing cult hideouts, and a secborg is always nice to have around to protect the brig from direct assaults. My issue here is that secborgs are almost useless when doing anything outside this role.

By my observation, any time one of the major 3 biohazard infestation types (xenos, blobs, terrorspiders) appears, being a security borg seems to be a direct downgrade from playing as a normal sec officer. This is a bit of a problem, since cyborgs in any other department get a variety of tools for fulfilling their departmental roles better than the average member of that department, while sec borgs are considerably worse than regular crewmember sec in a variety of security-related roles.

While secborgs can have a lasergun unlocked from illegal modules, keep in mind that so many different factors have to come into play for this to happen:

1. First, the gametype either needs to involve traitors, or a piece of uncommon contraband needs to randomly spawn in maint: Dart pistol, suspicious toolbox, stetchkin, suspicious surgery bag, and whoever finds the legally-questionable gear has to give it to RnD instead of just invoking the Finder's Keepers rule or turning it over to security who are more likely keep it in evidence storage. Just to re-iterate: Unless the starting antag is traitors, then the only way for RnD to receive an illegal research level for cyborg illegal modules is with RNG-based maint loot. Technically you could also get illegal tech levels from stolen Nuke Op gear, but if it's Nuke Ops then why are you wasting time doing RnD for illegal modules instead of protecting the fukken disk?

2. Step two, the confiscated syndicate gear from a traitor or the rare maint syndi gear has to be brought to RnD--keep in mind that security SoP demands that all confiscated syndicate gear must be held in evidence storage, and therefore in order to fulfill this step Security has to be willing to break SoP.

3. Illegals must be developed, and both Command and the AI have to agree to break SoP by distributing illegal upgrades to their security borgs.

Code Gamma is also a way for secborgs to upgrade themselves with lethals, but keep in mind that Gamma almost never gets authorized when it's needed most, and can only be activated by an admin or if a roundstart blob infestation reaches a certain point. I've seen plenty of Terrorspider and Xenomorph infestations snowball out of hand without Gamma ever being called, which I believe discards Gamma as any sort of reliable way for cyborgs to get lethal equipment.

Lethals or not, the root of the problem is that secborgs have an incredibly difficult time staying relevant during a major biohazard. Secborgs are more or less useless against blobs since they can't do much aside from trying to harmbaton the blob tiles (extremely inefficient), and even if they get lasers, reflective blob tiles limit how much use a lasergun can be. Versus xenos, secborgs are absurdly vulnerable to xenomorph melee: The xenomorphs' 'stun' (disarm intent) can knock a cyborg out for longer than it would affect a crewman--this makes very little sense, and seems incredibly unfair to secborgs who don't have much recourse outside of trying to harmbaton the xenomorphs to death. Even without a stun, a xeno hunter still could reasonably beat a harmbaton-wielding borg in a 1v1 due to how much faster xenomorph hunters are, and how much damage xeno claws inflict. Secborgs versus Terrorspiders are basically dead meat if they don't have lethals, and while Terrorspiders can't 1-shot stun a cyborg they do trade off so favourably in melee combat that trying to harmbaton them is basically suicide. Again, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if lethal modules weren't so rare and unusual for a variety of reasons.

The overall idea of cyborgs is that each specialized model should be better than the average crewmember at fulfilling specific roles within that department they're specialized for. I understand that this is part of why Sec borgs had to be nerfed in the first place: It was manageable as long as there were only 1-2 secborgs, but being a sec borg was so appealing that players would flock to the role and there would be 5-6 secborgs dogpiling all of the antags by the end of the shift.

What I'd propose is that secborgs shouldn't be useless when fighting the major 3 biohazards--making it so that xenos can't take them down with a single button click is a good place to start. Similarly, RnD should have an SoP-friendly way to unlock cyborg lethals without relying on the admins to call Gamma.

The easiest and least disastrous change I can think of is to give security borgs some sort of 'gun gripper' that would let them pick up and operate a single lasergun or egun from the armory just like any other officer--weapons carried in this matter would need to be visible upon examination as long as they're carried, and the gun is dropped if the borg is ever stunned or the module slot they're using to carry the egun/lasergun gets disabled, and the borg could recharge a carried weapon using its internal battery at the same speed as a regular recharger unit. SoP would demand that they return the firearm to the armory when no longer necessary, as with regular officers. This way security borgs have very little change from how they normally operate versus infiltration antags, but they're not completely shit out of luck any time security is asked to counter one of several threats where non-lethal equipment is useless.

The other idea I can think of is that there should be a maximum limit of 2 security-module cyborgs active at any given moment--any further cyborgs trying to choose security will be denied and told to pick another module. My thinking is that this would put security cyborgs into the same niche as Durand Mechs: They're a strong deterrent to anyone trying to take down security out with a head-on assault, but otherwise they're slow, easy to run away from, and limited numbers mean that they can't be everywhere at once.

[constatinus]

17 hours ago, Machofish said:

I think that security borgs are strong enough when it comes to infiltration antags: traitors, changelings, cultists, and vampires. Secborgs can also do some nasty work to Nuke Ops if they're smart about it.

As mentioned, the primary appeal of playing a cyborg is that they're immune to many of the hazards and stuns that would affect normal crew (though they have quite a few unique vulnerabilities of their own).  The addition of all access and a direct camera link shared by the AI makes security cyborgs a real pain for infiltration antags. Security borgs used to be much stronger before a nerf that was implemented some time ago. In particular, old security borgs could sustain considerably more damage before losing their equipment modules, and were easier to repair. Cyborgs still have the ability to fulfill the role of a heavily-armored 'door kicker' for the rest of sec to follow when clearing cult hideouts, and a secborg is always nice to have around to protect the brig from direct assaults. My issue here is that secborgs are almost useless when doing anything outside this role.

By my observation, any time one of the major 3 biohazard infestation types (xenos, blobs, terrorspiders) appears, being a security borg seems to be a direct downgrade from playing as a normal sec officer. This is a bit of a problem, since cyborgs in any other department get a variety of tools for fulfilling their departmental roles better than the average member of that department, while sec borgs are considerably worse than regular crewmember sec in a variety of security-related roles.

While secborgs can have a lasergun unlocked from illegal modules, keep in mind that so many different factors have to come into play for this to happen:

1. First, the gametype either needs to involve traitors, or a piece of uncommon contraband needs to randomly spawn in maint: Dart pistol, suspicious toolbox, stetchkin, suspicious surgery bag, and whoever finds the legally-questionable gear has to give it to RnD instead of just invoking the Finder's Keepers rule or turning it over to security who are more likely keep it in evidence storage. Just to re-iterate: Unless the starting antag is traitors, then the only way for RnD to receive an illegal research level for cyborg illegal modules is with RNG-based maint loot. Technically you could also get illegal tech levels from stolen Nuke Op gear, but if it's Nuke Ops then why are you wasting time doing RnD for illegal modules instead of protecting the fukken disk?

2. Step two, the confiscated syndicate gear from a traitor or the rare maint syndi gear has to be brought to RnD--keep in mind that security SoP demands that all confiscated syndicate gear must be held in evidence storage, and therefore in order to fulfill this step Security has to be willing to break SoP.

3. Illegals must be developed, and both Command and the AI have to agree to break SoP by distributing illegal upgrades to their security borgs.

Code Gamma is also a way for secborgs to upgrade themselves with lethals, but keep in mind that Gamma almost never gets authorized when it's needed most, and can only be activated by an admin or if a roundstart blob infestation reaches a certain point. I've seen plenty of Terrorspider and Xenomorph infestations snowball out of hand without Gamma ever being called, which I believe discards Gamma as any sort of reliable way for cyborgs to get lethal equipment.

Lethals or not, the root of the problem is that secborgs have an incredibly difficult time staying relevant during a major biohazard. Secborgs are more or less useless against blobs since they can't do much aside from trying to harmbaton the blob tiles (extremely inefficient), and even if they get lasers, reflective blob tiles limit how much use a lasergun can be. Versus xenos, secborgs are absurdly vulnerable to xenomorph melee: The xenomorphs' 'stun' (disarm intent) can knock a cyborg out for longer than it would affect a crewman--this makes very little sense, and seems incredibly unfair to secborgs who don't have much recourse outside of trying to harmbaton the xenomorphs to death. Even without a stun, a xeno hunter still could reasonably beat a harmbaton-wielding borg in a 1v1 due to how much faster xenomorph hunters are, and how much damage xeno claws inflict. Secborgs versus Terrorspiders are basically dead meat if they don't have lethals, and while Terrorspiders can't 1-shot stun a cyborg they do trade off so favourably in melee combat that trying to harmbaton them is basically suicide. Again, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if lethal modules weren't so rare and unusual for a variety of reasons.

The overall idea of cyborgs is that each specialized model should be better than the average crewmember at fulfilling specific roles within that department they're specialized for. I understand that this is part of why Sec borgs had to be nerfed in the first place: It was manageable as long as there were only 1-2 secborgs, but being a sec borg was so appealing that players would flock to the role and there would be 5-6 secborgs dogpiling all of the antags by the end of the shift.

What I'd propose is that secborgs shouldn't be useless when fighting the major 3 biohazards--making it so that xenos can't take them down with a single button click is a good place to start. Similarly, RnD should have an SoP-friendly way to unlock cyborg lethals without relying on the admins to call Gamma.

The easiest and least disastrous change I can think of is to give security borgs some sort of 'gun gripper' that would let them pick up and operate a single lasergun or egun from the armory just like any other officer--weapons carried in this matter would need to be visible upon examination as long as they're carried, and the gun is dropped if the borg is ever stunned or the module slot they're using to carry the egun/lasergun gets disabled, and the borg could recharge a carried weapon using its internal battery at the same speed as a regular recharger unit. SoP would demand that they return the firearm to the armory when no longer necessary, as with regular officers. This way security borgs have very little change from how they normally operate versus infiltration antags, but they're not completely shit out of luck any time security is asked to counter one of several threats where non-lethal equipment is useless.

The other idea I can think of is that there should be a maximum limit of 2 security-module cyborgs active at any given moment--any further cyborgs trying to choose security will be denied and told to pick another module. My thinking is that this would put security cyborgs into the same niche as Durand Mechs: They're a strong deterrent to anyone trying to take down security out with a head-on assault, but otherwise they're slow, easy to run away from, and limited numbers mean that they can't be everywhere at once.

Yeah this seems cool. I agree

[Reschreiter1311]

You actually dont need maint loot to get illegals to 2 so you can make illegal borg upgrades without syndi items

[Norwest]

On 8/31/2019 at 10:56 AM, Machofish said:

The easiest and least disastrous change I can think of is to give security borgs some sort of 'gun gripper' that would let them pick up and operate a single lasergun or egun from the armory just like any other officer--weapons carried in this matter would need to be visible upon examination as long as they're carried, and the gun is dropped if the borg is ever stunned or the module slot they're using to carry the egun/lasergun gets disabled, and the borg could recharge a carried weapon using its internal battery at the same speed as a regular recharger unit. SoP would demand that they return the firearm to the armory when no longer necessary, as with regular officers. This way security borgs have very little change from how they normally operate versus infiltration antags, but they're not completely shit out of luck any time security is asked to counter one of several threats where non-lethal equipment is useless.

 

I really like this idea, all in all. It lets secborgs stay relevant against biohazards, while still subjecting them to significant penalties ("1 hand+0 backpacks" vs. "2 hands+backpack o'guns") that allow organics to remain important too.

(as an aside, when playing Secborg against blobs/xenos/terrors, I find it's almost a relief to finally die. Whaling on some isolated bit of blob for ages, with literally nothing more than a harmbaton to hurt the thing, is all kinds of no-fun)

Edited September 6, 2019 by Norwest

[alphaJackal]

I think the big disparity between opinions here comes from the fact that against relatively 'minor' threats, such as a traitor or some other non-station-destroying entity, secborgs are extremely robust, having immunity to many environmental hazards and status effects that normal security officers suffer from, but when a threat starts to spiral out of control, they lose relevance fast because a lot of the most major hazards are beastly at melee range or have close-range EMPs(yes, I know tators can get emps too, but with limited TC you don't actually see it universally). So, on the one hand, in the early game you have a mostly unstoppable force in the form of the sec borg, who can charge and stun or fire almost unlimited disabler shots against most humanoid targets, but on the other hand you have a useless hunk of metal that will die the moment it gets anywhere near a blob or savvy cultist or xenomorph. The problem isn't that borgs are overpowered or underpowered, it's that their niche becomes outdated the moment the round starts becoming difficult unless the station gets illegals, which does not consistently happen due to all of the moving, sometimes random parts involved.