Nerf to Mining

[alphaJackal]

Now, I understand that mining is all about fighting megafauna and not about acquiring resources for the station, but it's getting tiresome for miners to get geared up and then start patrolling maints for antags as drakes and maniacs with meathooks. It isn't their job to be security, but there are no restrictions enforced on where they can take their weapons, meaning that they essentially become a security force that answers to nobody, and I've yet to see security ever enforce restrictions on miner weaponry. So, to cut down on the miner lynch mobs roaming maint looking for people to kill, I propose that like the gateway energy gun, mining weaponry doesn't function on the station. Honestly I don't know how much coding it would take, perhaps just a z-level check as a safety switch for the stuff, but having them come onto the station geared up like gamma and start hunting for antags without even having probable cause is common and, in my opinion, unfair.

 

TLDR: Remove mining's ability to be an unopposed lynch mob by keeping their weapons from working on station.

[McRamon]

Well, we have specific rules that restrict something like this. If you see someone nonsec validhunting, you should report them to admins. And ofc there are certain valid antags (wizard, nukies, blob, demons) which are perfectly valid to be hunted by anyone, and i dont see any problems for miners to use gear from lavaland to do it effectively. Not like killing megafauna is easy enough for miners to storm maintenance in full gear 10 minutes into the round.

Also restricting antags from using lavaland loot is also a bad descision. All the fun around lavaland is to bring loot to station. Also often miners share gear with sec or command.

[AzuleUtama]

Well for a start they shouldn't be patrolling maintenance or the station in general armed with lavaland loot in the hopes they may "stumble" into an antagonist doing something and "defend" the person they're kidnapping/murdering. Rule 8 states that only security should be actively hunting antagonists barring extremely powerful ones such as wizards and nuke ops.

Implementing z-level checks isn't a great solution to the issue of miners running around the station with lavaland gear either. Outside of it being snowflakey in terms of which items we would need to blacklist from station use as well as not making a lot of sense for some of the items being unusable, it would also make miner antagonists unable to use any of the gear they actively risked an early death trying to get.

IMO, if the use of lavaland loot on the station is causing problems with most rounds it would be better to look at reducing the amount of items actually on lavaland to start with and/or updating space law to prohibit the carrying or use of certain lavaland items while on the station.

[alphaJackal]

45 minutes ago, McRamon said:

Well, we have specific rules that restrict something like this. If you see someone nonsec validhunting, you should report them to admins. And ofc there are certain valid antags (wizard, nukies, blob, demons) which are perfectly valid to be hunted by anyone, and i dont see any problems for miners to use gear from lavaland to do it effectively. Not like killing megafauna is easy enough for miners to storm maintenance in full gear 10 minutes into the round.

Also restricting antags from using lavaland loot is also a bad descision. All the fun around lavaland is to bring loot to station. Also often miners share gear with sec or command.

Yeah, certain antags are valid, but is it really okay for miners to be prowling maints actively looking for them? I've seen a ton of rounds where miners wandering around maints with high-end gear just instantly nuke a random valid antag because there's really no way you can plan for someone in drake armor with a meathook inspecting every square inch of the station for something they're legally allowed to kill, and if you question them on it they'll just say they were wandering around the station like anyone else does. It's not like I can prove the miners weren't just coincidentally there less than 2 minutes after this xeno or that blob pops.

 

41 minutes ago, AzuleUtama said:

Well for a start they shouldn't be patrolling maintenance or the station in general armed with lavaland loot in the hopes they may "stumble" into an antagonist doing something and "defend" the person they're kidnapping/murdering. Rule 8 states that only security should be actively hunting antagonists barring extremely powerful ones such as wizards and nuke ops.

Implementing z-level checks isn't a great solution to the issue of miners running around the station with lavaland gear either. Outside of it being snowflakey in terms of which items we would need to blacklist from station use as well as not making a lot of sense for some of the items being unusable, it would also make miner antagonists unable to use any of the gear they actively risked an early death trying to get.

IMO, if the use of lavaland loot on the station is causing problems with most rounds it would be better to look at reducing the amount of items actually on lavaland to start with and/or updating space law to prohibit the carrying or use of certain lavaland items while on the station.

Well, honestly, I'd love to see lavaland loot reduced, but I figured I'd get burned at the stake for even suggesting it, so I tried for what I hoped was a more moderate solution.

[Tread Jenkins]

In my experience as both mining and being outside of mining when antag roles are things for example cult, if you can take the miners you're damn near assured to win the round, couple that with several times as security or even as a borg i've had several incidents where Miners with the full drake armor and gear have willingly fired into mass groups of security who had things under control for the most part. Their only response however when questioned on anything was simply 'Oops'. 

It may also be worth note that on a good number of occasions a changling has been a miner and they simply waited until they had the lavaland gear and pretty much just went on a murder bone quest at that point.

[Kinnikonnie]

Lavaland stuff is completely unbalanced with the rest of the station items. In my opinion it is extremely overpowered that suddenly someone can even just pull out a katana and start hacking away if they are an antag or a target of an antag. I do not think its really fun and it also makes Gateway pointless as the items you can find in the Gateway are a joke compared to lavaland.

 

In addition resources seem to be really bi-polar. Either all the miners die (which has become rarer) and so there are no resources or what recently has happened with 8 or so people going miner and most of them knowing what they are doing is that resources become abundant and it has a negative affect on any antags anyway. The last times I have seen xenos or terrors at least 2 gygaxes or durands have been ready to crush them within minutes.  The fact that there is a mech every round now almost guaranteed for security really tilts the favor against antags and I barely seen multiple-objective vampire/clings succeed at their objectives if they get found out.

[alphaJackal]

2 hours ago, Kinnikonnie said:

Lavaland stuff is completely unbalanced with the rest of the station items. In my opinion it is extremely overpowered that suddenly someone can even just pull out a katana and start hacking away if they are an antag or a target of an antag. I do not think its really fun and it also makes Gateway pointless as the items you can find in the Gateway are a joke compared to lavaland.

 

In addition resources seem to be really bi-polar. Either all the miners die (which has become rarer) and so there are no resources or what recently has happened with 8 or so people going miner and most of them knowing what they are doing is that resources become abundant and it has a negative affect on any antags anyway. The last times I have seen xenos or terrors at least 2 gygaxes or durands have been ready to crush them within minutes.  The fact that there is a mech every round now almost guaranteed for security really tilts the favor against antags and I barely seen multiple-objective vampire/clings succeed at their objectives if they get found out.

A lot of that comes down to when the xenos or terrors pop, because at the 2h mark the crew is usually on high alert from whatever threats are already around, but I do agree with the sentiment that the focus on fighting in lavaland makes resource availability on the station extremely binary. Either the station is absolutely loaded, or absolutely dry. From what I understand, the original reason why mining became the way it is was because miners felt like the job was too boring, but I don't think that treating mining like it's an entirely separate experience only tangentially related to the rest of the station is the way to fix this, because the effect mining has on the station as a whole is not a very positive one. The on-off nature resource gathering and the tendency for miners to bring equipment on the station that trivializes security and antags both doesn't really help the SS13 experience in my opinion.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, mining also cheapens the Mechanic by basically being a better version of it when it comes to acquiring exotic gear for the station. Space exploration is somewhat random, very time consuming, and doesn't yield power nearly as high as a miner can get while all being limited to basically just one person getting geared up, rather than an entire department.

Edited September 11, 2019 by alphaJackal

[Spacemanspark]

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On 9/10/2019 at 6:39 AM, alphaJackal said:

Yeah, certain antags are valid, but is it really okay for miners to be prowling maints actively looking for them

Most, if not all, of those 'valid' antagonists are being chased by the rest of the crew as well. Miners having gear that enables them to do so effectively that they earned isn't a big deal. 

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EDIT: Now that I think about it, mining also cheapens the Mechanic by basically being a better version of it when it comes to acquiring exotic gear for the station. Space exploration is somewhat random, very time consuming, and doesn't yield power nearly as high as a miner can get while all being limited to basically just one person getting geared up, rather than an entire department.

The mechanic is meant to build and repair pods, nothing more or less.

[alphaJackal]

10 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

Most, if not all, of those 'valid' antagonists are being chased by the rest of the crew as well. Miners having gear that enables them to do so effectively that they earned isn't a big deal. 

The mechanic is meant to build and repair pods, nothing more or less.

I've seen tons of miners hunting in maint before a threat is ever revealed, but even then, just because they 'earn' the gear doesn't mean it's good that there's a secondary security force on the station with fewer restrictions and duties. Like, you can have a super-challenging gauntlet with a Staff of Instant Gibbing as the reward at the end, but even if the reward is 'earned' doesn't mean that it's a good idea for it to exist in the first place.

[Leanfrog]

That's against the rules then, that's valid hunting and you ahelp that when you see it.

[alphaJackal]

45 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

That's against the rules then, that's valid hunting and you ahelp that when you see it.

I'm not sure how I could prove my case, but even that doesn't really deal with the idea that giving miners the opportunity to become overpowered killing machines without the restrictions and duties of being security has not resulted in a good play experience for me at least.

[Spacemanspark]

Science can and does do way worse with much less effort. Scichem and toxins alone is horrific in the right hands. If people are hunting for antagonists before any are known, admin help it. We'll deal with it. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Spacemanspark

[Cazdon]

I think there's something to be said about the 'ready-to-go' nature of some lavaland loot here. Some of these items are extremely lethal, and miners that know what they're doing can get them fairly early with a bit of luck.

Compaired to security or robotics, there's no SOP loosely holding back miners from just packing high lethal force as soon as they are able. Or at least if there is, it's not enforced in the slightest.

[Leanfrog]

Honestly adding something along the lines of miners not being allowed to bring overtly lethal or dangerous equipment on station outside of an emergency calling for it, into their SoP seems like a logical addition, maybe add some personal lockers down on the outpost or at the mining dock for them to safely store their equipment, just because they found some stuff on a lava planet doesn't make them exempt from space law

[alphaJackal]

18 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Science can and does do way worse with much less effort. Scichem and toxins alone is horrific in the right hands. If people are hunting for antagonists before any are known, admin help it. We'll deal with it. 

The big difference is that a guy walking around with a maxcap is far more likely to be stopped by security than a guy walking around with a meathook or hiero staff. The people who talked about there needing to be SoP about it and how there's nothing enforced about mining loot on station are right.

[Slith-Skaar]

Heirophant staff is honestly, really weak and just used for intimidation. It does jackall damage with its spells, Xenos can ignore it, and just heal from the resin faster. Tspiders can just do the same in webs. The only good thing about (not counting the pretty lights it makes) the heirophant staff is, is for an emergency teleport out, but in saying that, that requires the user to stand still uninterupted for 5 seconds.

Meathook is STRONG, yes I will admit. HOWEVER this requires you to actually aim at a target, and connect. if it misses, it has a HEAVY cooldown. Most of the stuff obtained from lavaland honestly isn't too bad, considering the risks.

Dragon Transformation, again strong however very fragile at the same time, glass cannon and unrevivable should you die.

Lavastaff and Staff of Storms, both I will admit are the VERY strong counters to biohazards such as Tspiders and xenos, but at the same time prove a risk to the crew so... I guess its a trade-off?

 

In any sense, I don't see an issue with miners being able to counter biohazards considering they already go against giant man-eating skull-face-things and angry birds and dragons. They should be threatening to fauna such as Tspiders and Xenos. Play around it and play stratigically. They aren't immortal, just tougher than your regular folk.

 

[Spacemanspark]

1 hour ago, alphaJackal said:

The big difference is that a guy walking around with a maxcap

Who in their right mind walks around with a maxcap in hand lmfao

And that's also glossing over scichem, which can easily fill a spray bottle with lube or other chemicals and go to town. 

Or xenobiology, for that matter. 

My point stands. Science has much easier access to far more deadly equipment much earlier in than mining. 

Regardless, I'm fine with SoP changes to miners carrying around weapons they find... but not game mechanic changes. Mining itself doesn't need a nerf in my eyes. 

[McRamon]

I support the idea of staffs and meathooks to be possession of a weapon. 

But overall aside from one or two times, i seen no mining impact on antag/crew balance. Blobs and xenos can be destroyed without any mining.

[alphaJackal]

14 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Who in their right mind walks around with a maxcap in hand lmfao

And that's also glossing over scichem, which can easily fill a spray bottle with lube or other chemicals and go to town. 

Or xenobiology, for that matter. 

My point stands. Science has much easier access to far more deadly equipment much earlier in than mining. 

Regardless, I'm fine with SoP changes to miners carrying around weapons they find... but not game mechanic changes. Mining itself doesn't need a nerf in my eyes. 

My point is that if science or chemistry walks around with almost any of the dangerous stuff they make, people react. Nobody bats an eye at a miner with a meathook...which despite needing to be aimed, has a fast projectile speed, making it pretty easy to aim. A miner can walk around with all of their loot fully visible, and security won't react at all. Whether it be an SOP change or personal lockers or something, something needs to change about them being about to walk around with weapons visible without any consequence when literally nobody else can. Even gateway and space explorers at least need to keep their weapons in their bags.

[Spacemanspark]

Science doesn't get in trouble for carrying most items unless they're blatantly using it maliciously, which can be said the same for miners using their items. I don't think you really know what you're talking about. 

[alphaJackal]

11 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Science doesn't get in trouble for carrying most items unless they're blatantly using it maliciously, which can be said the same for miners using their items. I don't think you really know what you're talking about. 

Or maybe we've just had vastly different experiences. RnD can't start making weapons and taking them out of the department, roboticists need permission from the HoS to even think about combat mechs, and the moment a toxins bomb becomes visible outside of toxins sec starts really buzzing.

Edited September 14, 2019 by alphaJackal

[Leanfrog]

Most rounds the majority of the time will be spent on red alert meaning robotics can build combat exos whenever, and more often than not a toxins bomb isn't going to be visible before it goes off, non antags also have no reason to be hoarding these things as they don't serve them any purpose or would result in a rules violation, what RnD can make indirect weapons as well as some of the most powerful non syndie implants in the game

[alphaJackal]

25 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

Most rounds the majority of the time will be spent on red alert meaning robotics can build combat exos whenever, and more often than not a toxins bomb isn't going to be visible before it goes off, non antags also have no reason to be hoarding these things as they don't serve them any purpose or would result in a rules violation, what RnD can make indirect weapons as well as some of the most powerful non syndie implants in the game

My entire point in bringing those up is that they have rules that govern them. A miner, once they get back on the station, is just someone loaded up to ERT levels without any governance past the most basic 'don't get caught attacking people without reason' bit. They don't even have to keep their weapons hidden on green.

[BryanR]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:07 PM, alphaJackal said:

I'm not sure how I could prove my case, but even that doesn't really deal with the idea that giving miners the opportunity to become overpowered killing machines without the restrictions and duties of being security has not resulted in a good play experience for me at least.

Its not up to you to prove definitively whether someone is breaking the rules or not. The point of alerting us is so you draw our attention to them so WE can investigate whether or not your concerns are valid.

At worst, you worried over nothing and everyone moves along just fine. Otherwise you could aid in us catching rule breakers just by alerting us to something fishy going down.

[Spacemanspark]

14 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

Or maybe we've just had vastly different experiences. RnD can't start making weapons and taking them out of the department, roboticists need permission from the HoS to even think about combat mechs, and the moment a toxins bomb becomes visible outside of toxins sec starts really buzzing.

Scientists have access to every part of their department sans Robotics. RnD, which can be maxed out really early on, can certainly be a major support tool for a person that wants to go crazy. 

Toxins, again... who openly runs around with a bomb in hand? It's easy to conceal, and very deadly. 

Annnd you're still glossing over xenobiology and scichem. 

Robotics, especially early on... really only needs a Ripley (hell, even an Odysseus is amazing in the right circumstances) to do crazy stuff. Not to mention IRCs they can get after mining brings in their first haul most rounds, implants they can make and install fairly easily...

 

Mining isn't really out there. Again, I have no issues with proper SoP regarding what they can do on station, but I think you're making a big deal over nothing. A mechanical nerf isn't necessary to most of these items.