Change Space Law to be clear on Sleeping Carp users

[Calecute]

I don't think space law right now as written includes knowing sleeping carp as a crime.

Recently I came across a prisoner put in perma for knowing sleeping carp, it had committed no other crimes. Security permaed it, but I was unsure if it was legal. I faxed CC and they told me knowing sleeping carp was class S contraband, so it was legal. I think that was the right call, and sleeping carp users should be permaed, but you can't arrive in that conclusion from the text of Space Law.

Crime 306 - Possession of Contraband text is: 
 

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To be in the possession of contraband items. Being in possession of S-grade contraband, or committing a major crime with contraband, makes you an Enemy of the Corporation.

The clarification texts reads in part: 
 

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For information on what items are contraband see Contraband.

Going to the linked "Contraband" we find:
 

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NC - Non-Contraband items. These items are not to be charged as Contraband.

C - Standard Contraband items. These items are chargeable as Contraband.

S - Dangerous Contraband items. The owner is to be charged as an Enemy of the Corporation.

(bold added by me in all cases)

In the list of Dangerous Contraband Items (S) we find "Mysterious Scroll (Sleeping Carp)".

The "Sleeping Carp" in parenthesis arguably could be referring to the fact that knowing sleeping carp is Class S Contraband, but given that all references to Contraband explicitly say "items", and the text of the crime itself list the possession of "items" as constituting the crime I don't think this is nearly clear enough.

Wish I had a very clean solution, but the best thing I could come up with is putting an asterisk on the Scroll saying that knowing Sleeping Carp is incontrovertible evidence of having been in possession of the scroll.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Calecute
Formating

[WingedYordle]

Sleeping Carp does mean they are EoC and as such as per Standard Operations Procedures, enemies of corporation such as agents, ops, vampires are to be placed in perma if they did not commit a capital crime and then transfer to CC via shuttle

[Display Name]

The problem is, and I've seen this, having played with and an even being that shitcurity officer who can't distinguish between Sleeping Carp CQC, the Chef's CQC and even more circumstantial stuff like the Warden's Krav Maga, that Sleeping Carp users are rare, and the whole point of unarmed combat is that you don't leave anything behind at the scene. If I was an IAA or Magistrate and some officer came up with someone who they claimed "shouted and hit them very hard", you can guess what my verdict is going to be if I don't get anything more to the story.

Simply put, it doesn't make sense lore-wise to automatically label those who know CQC as EoCs, even if there are very clear differences between how they work in terms of gameplay and player interactions, I think that it is reasonable to leave Sleeping Carp users some degree of ambiguity with Space Law, especially considering that it is a relatively rare purchase.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Display Name

[Calecute]

22 hours ago, WingedYordle said:

Sleeping Carp does mean they are EoC and as such as per Standard Operations Procedures, enemies of corporation such as agents, ops, vampires are to be placed in perma if they did not commit a capital crime and then transfer to CC via shuttle

But they are only EoC because they are charged with Possession of Class S Contraband, no? Is the only possible way to know sleeping carp in universe through syndies and the scroll? 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Calecute

[Rebel0]

24 minutes ago, Calecute said:

But they are only EoC because they are charged with Possession of Class S Contraband, no? Is the only possible way to know sleeping carp in universe through syndies and the scroll? 

Yes. The only ways that I know of obtaining Sleeping Carp is via syndicate equipment. Such as buying it via the uplink or buying a null crate through Cargo. (I know null crates carry CQC manuals but I believe they carry Sleeping Carp as well.)

Sleeping Carp in both usage and the possession of the scroll counts as contraband.

The only things similar to Sleeping Carp are CQC proper - which is S class as well - or 'CQC' aka Close Quaters Cooking. This should only be known by the chef and only usable in the kitchen and bar. An easy way to test that is if the user is able to use it outside of the kitchen or not. You can tell the difference between CQC and Carp easily.
1. Can the user deflect disablers/tasers/ranged weapons? If yes, Carp. If no, CQC.
2. Pay attention to the move combos. They have notably different combos.

Carp prisoners are typically to be cloned as it is the only way to forget the use of carp. There is no way to make the user forget how to use it. Due to deflecting all ranged projectiles, making disarms do damage, allow for combat stuns and large amounts of damage it is not viable to throw someone in perma or elsewhere with knowledge of Carp. The usage of Carp designates that you used S class contraband to learn the skill - and are thus an EoC via the usage of that contraband.

[Abydos]

Space law is quite clear on the matter and there's no way of confusing a sleeping carp user with just about anything else.

CQC - Close Quarters Cooking - Only the chef can use this and it can only be used within the Bar and Kitchen area. The Chef is legally allowed to use it to deal with people being problematic within the bar or breaking into the kitchen. They are encouraged to not use lethal unless a clear threat is within their life (Self-defense). They are also able to block, dodge or even counter melee attacks against them so long as they have throw mode on with a % chance. Legal as the chef was trained by Nanotrasen to do this.

CQC - Close Quarters Combat - A nukie only item, though I've heard it's possible to get it in uplink crates and hacked cargo crates. Exactly the same as the Chef's CQC, but they're able to do it anywhere on the station. The only way of getting this item is to have an e-mag or an uplink, meaning, you're marked as an EoC immediately. Both for having an e-mag and using it, and having found / gotten an CQC manual, learning and using the martial arts. Security are well within their right to kill the CQC user and have them cloned as having CQC makes them uncontainable (A lone security officer can immediately be stunned or even killed even in perma)

Warden's Krav Maga Gloves - Warden only item, though anyone is able to get the gloves and temporarily learn Krav Maga. Unlike CQC, where your options depend on your intent, theses ones are always on disarm, grab or harm and require a button to be selected. CQC requires comboing, while the Krav Maga are a simple two button click system. Theses are legal as the Warden spawns with them and was provided by Nanotrasen.

Sleeping Carp - A traitor only item, meaning you'd need an uplink to buy and learn it. Similar in terms of CQC with it's comboing, but two differences. First is the fact that you cannot be hit by ranged weapons. Anyone attempting to shoot you with tasers, lasers, even pulse rifles will have their shots deflected with the text "Alexis Bell deflects the projectile; he can't be hit with ranged weapons!" That's the first immediate sign of a Sleeping Carp user.

The second is the fact what they shout when they do combos. They shout out random things such as "Never turn your back to the enemy! HIYOH! YOU CAN'T SEE ME! KYUH! CARP BITE! HUH! OOPYAH! BANZAIII!"  Security are well within their right to kill the Sleeping Carp user with melee attacks and have them cloned as having Sleeping Carp makes them uncontainable (As they can't be stunned with ranged weapons and the fact that a lone security officer can immediately be stunned or even killed)

Gloves of the North Star - A traitor only item, meaning you'd need an uplink to buy and use it. Let's you rapidly punch as quick as  you can click, easily stunning and placing just about anyone into crit, as long as you have the gloves on and aren't holding an item.

Two of the items are legal to have as they are from Nanotrasen. Others are Syndicate only, which are illegal under space law.. I do not understand how you claim the person who had Class S contraband that immediately marks them as an EoC, using the Class S contraband that gives them illegal martial arts.. is not classified as an EoC because they did not have the contraband on their person and space law isn't clear on it, when it is. They USED the contraband.. it's the same as a Holoparasite user.. they USED the contraband which is illegal in the first place, and using illegal technology to do illegal activity onboard the station.

 

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S - Dangerous Contraband items. The owner is to be charged as an Enemy of the Corporation. - Any person caught with a S-Grade contraband item is to be immediately charged as an Enemy of the Corporation. These items are considered to be highly dangerous and are to be immediately confiscated. The origin of the item is irrelevant to the charge.

Current enemies of Nanotrasen include but are not limited to: The Syndicate (through secret agents, boarding parties, and brainwashing specialists), the Space Wizards Federation, Changelings, Shadowlings, Vampires, and other intelligent hostile forms of life that seek to cause major damage to the station and or crew.

Execution/Imprisonment - If an Enemy of the Corporation has not committed any Capital Crimes they are to be placed in Permanent Imprisonment (Permabrig/Solitary/Labor Camp/Exile) without exception. Otherwise, Execution is permitted at the discretion of the Magistrate. If no Magistrate has been assigned, or is otherwise unable to authorize an execution, the Captain may authorize executions in accordance with Legal Standard Operating Procedure.

Uncontainable EoCs - Hatched Shadowlings are to be killed on sight. Powered Vampires, or any other Enemies of the Corporation that cannot be contained safely in the Brig, are to be executed or exiled irrespective of their crimes. Head Revolutionaries are to be executed or exiled as soon as they are positively identified. Being a space-proof species does not constitute being impossible to contain.

Surrendering EoCs - Enemies of the Corporation that willingly turn themselves into Security of their own accord are to be kept in Permanent Imprisonment so long as they aren't impossible to contain. Defectors and captives are to be transported to Central Command via the Crew Transfer Shuttle; they are to be treated as dangerous enemies, but also protected from retribution and provided for.

306 - Possession of Contraband - To be in the possession of contraband items. Being in possession of S-grade contraband, or committing a major crime with contraband, makes you an Enemy of the Corporation. - For information on what items are contraband see Contraband. Contraband items from the Gateway are covered by this law. Personnel turning in contraband to Security of their own volition are exempt from this law.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Abydos

[Calecute]

2 hours ago, Abydos said:

I do not understand how you claim the person who had Class S contraband that immediately marks them as an EoC, using the Class S contraband that gives them illegal martial arts.. is not classified as an EoC because they did not have the contraband on their person and space law isn't clear on it, when it is.

As I said, Space law talks only about items being contraband, not knowledge. You seem to be only assuming you are right here. But to answer the point about knowing sleeping carp implying you had contraband, I thought about that, but it depends on external (to space law) facts about sleeping carp that I do not know. Is there any other way of learning sleeping carp in universe? Do only syndies know sleeping carp?
 

2 hours ago, Abydos said:

They USED the contraband.. it's the same as a Holoparasite user.. they USED the contraband which is illegal in the first place, and using illegal technology to do illegal activity onboard the station.

The analogy to implants is interesting, but presumably the implant is inside you and it could still be considered an item, and there's really no other way to have a implant other than being implanted. 

[Rebel0]

17 minutes ago, Calecute said:

The analogy to implants is interesting, but presumably the implant is inside you and it could still be considered an item, and there's really no other way to have a implant other than being implanted. 

You used an item to learn Sleeping Carp. 
If you used a holoparasite implant, then took it out of yourself persay, you are still guilty of having used the implant. Using the scroll - which disintegrates after use - gives you Sleeping Carp.

You knowing sleeping carp in it of itself is proof you used S-class contraband.

 

17 minutes ago, Calecute said:

Is there any other way of learning sleeping carp in universe? Do only syndies know sleeping carp?

This was answered twice now. Yes. Only people with uplinks can buy it - or get it from nullcrates. You are an EoC for USING the scroll in the first place - which is the only way to obtain knowledge on sleeping carp.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Rebel0

[Abydos]

23 minutes ago, Calecute said:

As I said, Space law talks only about items being contraband, not knowledge. You seem to be only assuming you are right here.

Space law talks about it quite clearly, that having the item, using the item or knowing the knowledge BEHIND the item is all illegal and points to the user being an EoC. There is no "Assumption", you're assuming that merely having the item is contraband and not USING the item or gaining the KNOWLEDGE of the item is contraband / illegal, when it is. Even merely having an uplink in any way, shape or form marks them immediately as an EoC.

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The origin of the item is irrelevant to the charge.

 

27 minutes ago, Calecute said:

Is there any other way of learning sleeping carp in universe? Do only syndies know sleeping carp?

Only Syndicate have it, only Syndicate can order it. Only a person with a Syndicate uplink can buy it and learn it. Why would a random Syndicate buy the item and hand it to a non-Syndicate? Unless that person was mindslaved, that would accomplish nothing.

28 minutes ago, Calecute said:

The analogy to implants is interesting, but presumably the implant is inside you and it could still be considered an item, and there's really no other way to have a implant other than being implanted.

You're focusing more on the "Item" part and not the knowledge. If a Syndicate uses a CQC manual and starts beating people up with it, they are an EoC because they USED the item to GAIN the knowledge into their head to attack people.

If a Syndicate uses a holoparasite.. they USED the item to gain a SYNDICATE GROWN LIVING ORGANISM into their body to attack crew members.

If a Syndicate orders Space Carp, and USED the item to make a Space Carp to kill someone, and security kill the Space Carp. That person is still an EoC, because they had to order it and their intent was quite clear.

Knowing Sleeping Carp, marks you as an EoC.. you used illegal ways to gain an illegal item / knowledge to do illegal activity on the station.

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Occasionally, you will encounter personnel that are working for an enemy of Nanotrasen (such as the Syndicate) and/or are working to undermine Nanotrasen's operations.

The Syndicate is known to employ a wide range of tactics and agents when engaging in corporate sabotage in Nanotrasen. The Syndicate is a pseudonym for a conglomerate of rival interests and space pirates opposed to Nanotrasen. The Syndicate employs mostly low-level and dispensable corporate employees to do their bidding. 

 

[McRamon]

But space law States sleeping carp scroll is contraband, not the technique itself. What if i officially announce that 5 years ago monks taught me the secrets of this martial art? 

[Abydos]

If you know the technique, you're an EoC. Seeing as how the only way you can get it, is being a member of the Syndicate.

You can't claim X person taught you X many years ago and Nanotrasen randomly hires you to be a Civilian, knowing X technique that was not approved by them and allows you to screw security over but totally legal because Nanotrasen hired you. That makes no sense.

That's like saying knowing Magic isn't illegal because a Wizard taught you years ago and Nanotrasen hired you. That means you're a member of the SWF, who is also on NT's hit list.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Abydos

[Denthamos]

There is no argument on this topic or reason it should be or will ever be changed.  Knowing sleeping carp makes you an EOC just as much as possessing any other S class contraband.  That is the staffs judgement on such including Kyet as headmin.

[Carthusia]

Depending on the security team, legal team, and the exact writing of space law itself, it is very possible to argue against an EoC jail term, or jail at all from an IC perspective due to a lack of hard evidence to counter any claim you may make. It all depends if the various aspects of security are willing to listen as the exact writing of SL, does not specify that the martial art itself is a crime to know, only the scroll one could use to obtain it, while onboard a NanoTrasen station.

The simple act of knowing it, is not listed, and thus it can be argued on an IC level.  This in no way guarantees you get away with it, but it is an option one can pursue if they wish.

Abyos, you noted that knowing magic makes you a member of the SWF and that the fact you may know magic is a crime, though the lore page contradicts this  as well as SL and notes: "Wizards are unique individuals who have access to powers that defy scientific principles. Most are part of the Space Wizard Federation"

Even if 80% are apart of the SWF, there is still a chance that such a magic user is not apart of the SWF.

SL itself does not state ALL magic users are EoCs, but those who are members of the SWF, as during a SWF attack where spellbooks pop out everywhere, any crew who were to read said book, would be immediately classed as an EoC and presumably executed due to their possible uncontainable aspect, even with no crime having been committed.

While in this example obviously a wizard who has boarded without authorisation is subject to the usual procedures of an unauthorized presence aboard the cyberiad, the mere fact they know magic, is not what makes them an EoC, but their membership to the SWF and or their proven intent to do harm.

 

Personally I enjoy these more grey area aspects of SL, as they encourage people to try to weasel out of things with varying degrees of hilarious/horrible failure, to lucky/amazing successes. In the end, its entirely IC handable without any edits to the page, you just need to be clever in how you go about either enforcing SL or sneaking around it.

Example: A syndicate agent murdering their target in the open with witnesses, BUT the target in fact was a vampire who was biting someone, and thus an EoC, not crew, and thus a murder by law, never actually took place.

Edited November 12, 2019 by BlackDog

[Abydos]

45 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

Depending on the security team, legal team, and the exact writing of space law itself, it is very possible to argue against an EoC jail term, or jail at all from an IC perspective due to a lack of hard evidence to counter any claim you may make.

No, it is not. The only person who is able to give Paroles at all, is the Captain or Magistrate. If an EoC is caught doing anything, even nothing but has everything pointing to them being an EoC, they are to be perma'd. If the EoC was standing around and flashed a e-sword. If the EoC was subjected to a random search and  class S contraband was found on them. If the EoC is able to deflect all ranged attacks. They are marked as an EoC and are to be dealt with as such.

51 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

The simple act of knowing it, is not listed, and thus it can be argued on an IC level.  This in no way guarantees you get away with it, but it is an option one can pursue if they wish.

They can if they wish, but they are still an EoC as to KNOW it, you are admitting you are an EoC because you had Class S contraband and used it. It'd be the same as if you used an E-mag to e-mag the cargo console. Still an EoC, regardless of your claims.

 

53 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

Abyos, you noted that knowing magic makes you a member of the SWF and that the fact you may know magic is a crime, though the lore page contradicts this  as well as SL and notes: "Wizards are unique individuals who have access to powers that defy scientific principles. Most are part of the Space Wizard Federation"

You completely disregarded what I had said, since I said and I quote "WIZARD who taught you magic". If a Wizard taught you magic, they are a member of the SWF and learning magic from them makes you an SWF member.

54 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

A syndicate agent murdering their target in the open with witnesses, BUT the target in fact was a vampire who was biting someone, and thus an EoC, not crew, and thus a murder by law, never actually took place.

If a Syndicate Agent used Class S contraband to kill a target, regardless if they themselves are an EoC, they are still an EoC. If the Changeling killed an Agent, still an EoC. If the Vampire killed a Changeling, still an EoC. 1 good deal or merely saying "It's not illegal to KNOW the item" is completely wrong in terms of space law. If you KNOWING an illegal martial arts? You're an EoC. You carrying class S contraband, using or learning from it? Still an EoC.

Again, it's the same as trying to say "Yeah, I found this holoparasite injector and handed it in. Oh what's that? It's used? Well yeah, I used it on myself. It's not illegal to OWN a holoparasite right?" Wrong, you're an EoC. To use Class S contraband marks you as an EoC, regardless of your intent, regardless of how you word or argue it. As pointed out by Denth, to know and use Class S contrband, even those that are used up, still classify you as an EoC and even Kyet says anyone who says otherwise is wrong.