Suggestion for improving the ruleset

[tongoe]

It would be really nice if some of the rules had spoilers which included some examples of the rule in practice, or simply a deeper explanation. I'll make an example from my point of view. 

I was playing a round as a station engineer (non antag), everything was quiet and code green was active. I thought I could maybe get a hardsuit and break into the armory or security locker room to get some toys. I decided it would be a good idea to read up on the rules, the only rules I could find related to this idea were these two, 

1. Actively diverting Security personnel and resources away from an active and direct Antagonist threat in order to deal with you and your actions will be considered Self-Antagging;

2. Breaking people out of the Security Brig area is allowed as a Non-Antagonist to the extent of minor damage to the station. Releasing anyone from the Permabrig as a Non-Antagonist requires Administrator permission;

I assumed that would mean I couldn't do it in code blue/red, but I adminhelped and he said it would be self antagging in green as well. How would I have known this as a new player without admin helping? It's really cumbersome to have to resort to adminhelp for every little thing because you're afraid of being banned for something that isn't properly written out in the ruleset.

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by tongoe
spelling

[Spacemanspark]

From the same rule you quoted: 

There is literally no justification ICly, as a non antag, for stealing weapons on code green. To add to that, breaking into a secure weapons armory is nowhere near considered 'minor criminal activity'. I don't think I need to explain why that's not 'minor criminal activity'. 

While not everything in the armory is an antagonist objective (the ablative vest is) stealing guns and other such important items also falls under this little bit. Whereas engineering can just print off, say, a welding tool if you stole that, security cannot quite so easily secure additional energy weapons without at least a three minute time limit, factoring in the time it would take to order and collect items from cargo, if other complications don't arise in the process. 

Weapons are also used in emergency situations. If anything requiring lethal force attacks, you've just screwed security in most scenarios, especially during code green when security isn't usually armed to the teeth already. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Spacemanspark

[McRamon]

I generally use this technique:

What would i do?

I am not antag in real life.

Can i shoplift? Yes, i did that when i was a kid. You can compare it to stealing some meds from medbay fridge or insulated gloves from engineering.

Would i, when bored, drive to nearby police station, ram wall and steal their guns? Certainly not. Neither would i go to clinic and steal last cancer treatment research data. Or poison food in grocery store. And so on.

Anyway, while case described by tongoe is pretty clear, there are indeed situations which are not completely covered (super rare but still) server rules.  And ahelp system helps greatly in such cases.

[Gaty]

3 hours ago, McRamon said:

I generally use this technique:

What would i do?

I am not antag in real life.

Can i shoplift? Yes, i did that when i was a kid.

I am calling the police you criminal scum.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Gaty

[tongoe]

10 hours ago, McRamon said:

I generally use this technique:

What would i do?

I am not antag in real life.

Can i shoplift? Yes, i did that when i was a kid. You can compare it to stealing some meds from medbay fridge or insulated gloves from engineering.

Would i, when bored, drive to nearby police station, ram wall and steal their guns? Certainly not. Neither would i go to clinic and steal last cancer treatment research data. Or poison food in grocery store. And so on.

Anyway, while case described by tongoe is pretty clear, there are indeed situations which are not completely covered (super rare but still) server rules.  And ahelp system helps greatly in such cases.

The problem with that technique is that's it's not consistent in any way. I have never done anything like shoplifting in my life and never would, so I would never get to do anything else than strictly follow space law and that would probably become quite boring, at least for me. I guess I'm just bad at understanding rules and such.

[Gaty]

39 minutes ago, tongoe said:

The problem with that technique is that's it's not consistent in any way. I have never done anything like shoplifting in my life and never would, so I would never get to do anything else than strictly follow space law and that would probably become quite boring, at least for me. I guess I'm just bad at understanding rules and such.

Normally, if its important, irreplaceable or dangerous, is probably not a good idea to steal it.

Raiding the armoury would be, along with distracting for security, unfair for both security for having less weaponry to defend themselves with and for antags for having to deal with a non security member armed with a laser gun when they are not supposed to have that in any ways.

Maybe you should try finding fun in other stuff that is not breaking the law, like chilling with friends, building and such.

[necaladun]

If we get overly specific in the rules it implies that things left out are ok, so we try to keep it generic. That and our rules are already huge - we don't want to scare people off from the server by making them read a george rr martin book of rules.

In general, self antagging means doing things an antag would do. Breaking into the armoury is a great example there.

Crimes that make it harder for otherpeople to do their job are also best avoided. Stealing vital tools or the like is an example there.

In general crimes should be rp'd. People won't risk a permabrig sentence because they're bored. 

Another good rule of thumb is - "what if everyone acted like this". If everyone stole some gloves or hacked a door in maint, no biggie. If everyone tried to break into security, every round, sec would be overwhelmed. Remember you are not the only player on the server, so don't act like a protagonist. The round isn't just your story.

[tongoe]

45 minutes ago, necaladun said:

If we get overly specific in the rules it implies that things left out are ok, so we try to keep it generic. That and our rules are already huge - we don't want to scare people off from the server by making them read a george rr martin book of rules.

In general, self antagging means doing things an antag would do. Breaking into the armoury is a great example there.

Crimes that make it harder for otherpeople to do their job are also best avoided. Stealing vital tools or the like is an example there.

In general crimes should be rp'd. People won't risk a permabrig sentence because they're bored. 

Another good rule of thumb is - "what if everyone acted like this". If everyone stole some gloves or hacked a door in maint, no biggie. If everyone tried to break into security, every round, sec would be overwhelmed. Remember you are not the only player on the server, so don't act like a protagonist. The round isn't just your story.

Good take, I will remember this when I play.