Should rounds with traitors and syndicate only be on blue?

[Xeno]

Ok so recently a feature was added basically increasing the chance of something bad happing while the station is on red. I personally like this sense it keeps the round alive a bit more and makes it so people don’t stay on red 24/7. Now the problem is that changelings and syndies result in the station being on red for the entire round sense there’s no way to be sure they station is clear of syndies. So I think it would be better to have syndies and Lings classified as code blue.

[Trololiver112]

Having changelings or syndicates who are known to kill and endanger crew on the lose is without a doubt a threat to the station. However, i would say the solution to this would be command  lowering to blue after a certain amount of time without any signs of this. The green if a certain amount of time passes after that again.

 

i also think the alerts work a little more like this, where there is more like if there i s a threat at all towards the station and its crew its red.

green - no threat

blue - possible threat, be aware

red - any confirmed threat

 

[Spacemanspark]

Changelings and syndicates are a deadly threat to the station, which should be a code red level priority. 

Code blue is raised when there's suspicious activity aboard, and red is raised when there's a confirmed threat. 

If command doesn't lower the alert level when the threat has ended, that's on them imo. 

[Kinnikonnie]

I think the alert system should be changed personally. Because right now blue is "command members not ready to swipe yet".

Blue should be threats are known but contained/not chaotic yet. That way security gets extra rights without starting to enforce annoying things and just tasering you for standing in the wrong spot.

 

Red should be that the threat has significantly increased and security is in desperate need to get some help. Like things getting bombed, security officers going down and not-revivable.

[Trololiver112]

If security is in desperate need for help that is gamma or ert worthy. That means the station can’t deal with it themselves 

[Xeno]

Perhaps there could be a timer and if some command doesn’t swipe after a certain time then it drops to blue. Command would get a leer when this timer is almost up, as I believe command forgets that the station is code red

[Regular Joe]

It works okay in my opinion - usually it just happens that people are bit cautious on lowering the alert level from red. Not a perfect system, though. Many, if not most shifts, go with red and that is why the code red SOP for departments other than sec doesn’t materialize a lot.

Personally I’d think there could, maybe, be one more alert level, to distinct confirmed and expected lethal action from confirmed threat with a possibility of escalating to largely lethal threat. Green blue red black, or so. There’s the difference of agents and changelings and some maddened Henk loose, as both kind of threats are capable to lethal, but the latter is using it on large; the needed action against those, and the need of the crew to take cover, differs too. Gamma’s there but the armory is a sec buff, I’m thinking of just enabling more strict SOP for largely dangerous situations by having a more restricting code available that is not activated so often as red is. RP and more tools for command to handle the crew. But that’s just a thought, as the present system flows quite okay and if situations in which forcing the red SOP seems usable happens, command can do that on will.

On the original question, yeah blue is the ’maybe’ code and for it to stay simple it’s better to be as is. I understand the idea anyway, yet I think it’s so-so can anything be done to improve the usage of the levels from the present.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Regular Joe

[Machofish]

On 3/22/2020 at 10:32 AM, Kinnikonnie said:

I think the alert system should be changed personally. Because right now blue is "command members not ready to swipe yet".

Blue should be threats are known but contained/not chaotic yet. That way security gets extra rights without starting to enforce annoying things and just tasering you for standing in the wrong spot.

 

Red should be that the threat has significantly increased and security is in desperate need to get some help. Like things getting bombed, security officers going down and not-revivable.

 

On 3/22/2020 at 7:37 PM, Regular Joe said:

Personally I’d think there could, maybe, be one more alert level, to distinct confirmed and expected lethal action from confirmed threat with a possibility of escalating to largely lethal threat. Green blue red black, or so. There’s the difference of agents and changelings and some maddened Henk loose, as both kind of threats are capable to lethal, but the latter is using it on large; the needed action against those, and the need of the crew to take cover, differs too. Gamma’s there but the armory is a sec buff, I’m thinking of just enabling more strict SOP for largely dangerous situations by having a more restricting code available that is not activated so often as red is. RP and more tools for command to handle the crew. But that’s just a thought, as the present system flows quite okay and if situations in which forcing the red SOP seems usable happens, command can do that on will.

I strongly agree here. 

As it is, Code Blue for 'suspected threats' barely, if ever, gets any use. If officers find a husked corpse with a missing ID in a locker, the response isn't "Oh, maybe this is a murder victim, maybe just a freak accident, Code Blue while we investigate," instead the sensible thing is to conclude "this person was murdered and looted, probably by a changeling. Code Red." Frequently even if I, as the HoS, only get partial reports and feel the alert should only be set to 'Blue' while the detective and security finish investigating, frequently the rest of command will go over my head and swipe for Red regardless of whether the threat has been properly confirmed or not. 

I'm not sure about the 'genesis' of the Code Blue/Code Red system, but I recall on older code builds, Code Blue was activated automatically about 5-10 minutes into the round, along with a small CC report that IC'ly listed all of the possible EoC types--this was primarily a RP facilitator when ignorance about antag types was enforced, just so the Captain could eventually announce "Yes, these are traitors" or "Yes, these are changelings" rather than the entire server being forced to feign incredulity for the entirety of the round. Now that things tend to stick at Code Green rather than escalating automatically to Blue, I find Blue barely ever gets used for it's intended role. Even then, the window of time between Security getting enough evidence to 'suspect' a threat and then calling for red because the evidence inevitably leads to a confirmation is extremely slim, so Code Blue is really going to waste as it's currently implemented.

The value judgement between Blue and Red should be a judgement that command makes between security abuse versus antag activity, something like this:

1. The overall goal for Nanotrasen is to maximize the station's efficiency.
2. EoC activity and capital crimes reduce efficiency, as they generally threaten the crew.
3. However, giving Security too much power ALSO reduces efficiency, as officers will waste the crew's valuable time by accosting them for random searches and department sweeps, sometimes detain crew over false positives or misapplied charges, and too much security meddling distracts the other departments from doing their job.

Therefore, I suggest Code Blue should be for situations where EoCs are confirmed, but the inconvenience posed by EoC activity is still lesser than the inconvenience that would be caused by letting Security off the leash. Code Red should be for when the EoC activity has escalated to a point where the EoCs pose greater inconvenience than allowing Security to go full shitsec, or for a crisis like blob or xenos.

 

Proposed Code Blue Changes

I'd argue that blue should be for cases where evidence is confirmed that EoCs or capital crimes are being committed and investigated, but security is still expected to adhere to SoP and Space Law. The SoP permissions for blue are generally fine for this, but a slight edit to the armoury permissions: armoury gear should only be authorized for specific, singular situations, and with the expectation that officers will immediately return any checked out armory gear once the specific situation is resolved. The only time a shotgun or lasergun should leave the armory is if the HoS can, specifically, describe who or what the shotgun or laser is going to be fired at, after which point the shotgun or lasergun must be returned to the armory if it's still Code Blue. Officers should not be allowed to passively patrol with lethals during Code Blue or Code Green. Use of lethal force on a crewmember during Code Blue should prompt an investigation by IAA, possibly resulting in the demotion of the officer if it was determined that nonlethal force would have been sufficient, or the demotion of the HoS if they authorized lethal force for a situation that could have been clearly resolved by nonlethal force--especially so if the misuse of lethal force results in a fatality. Note that EoCs who demonstrate clear immunity to nonlethal force are, by definition, not definable as a threat that can be resolved with nonlethal force. This last part sounds so obnoxiously obvious but I've had players argue that sec should just keep pointlessly using nonlethals on a traitor who's going crazy with anti-stun stimulants or 500u of meth in patches while sprinting around maint stabbing officers with an esword, so I'm typing it down for posterity's sake.

From the perspective of a Security main, tightening up SOP here will be a net positive: At present, distributing any lethals during Code Blue generally means the officers greedily squirrel their weapons away until they either get killed or jump into cryo without returning the weapon, making it very difficult to get everyone armed when an actual Code Red crisis occurs later and it turns out all of the equipment lent out during Code Blue is now missing.

 

Proposed Code Red Changes

Code Red should not be an automatic response to discovering EoCs. Instead, it should be reserved for situations where the overall safety and integrity of the station are at stake: Things like massive bombing sprees, vampires on a killing spree, or any infiltration antag who got enough meth patches to be basically immune to stun weapons. These are threats where security has a reasonable chance of failing even if they devote their full attention to confronting the threat, and therefore need permission to treat everything else as periphery until the threat is dealt with. Shadowlings, major biohazard infestations, or vamps/lings/traitors who either murder aggressively or render vast areas of the station inaccessible by bombing, and conditionally cultists due to the risk of a major summoning or they're using teleportation runes to evade nonlethal capture.

On change I'd like to see in Code Red SoP is that crew should be obliged to carry and present their ID cards to security upon request, and failure to do so may result in detainment as it qualifies for "suspicious behaviour." If the crewmember has a plausible excuse for not having their ID (basically, if it was stolen. "I lost my ID somewhere" is a dumb excuse and shouldn't be accepted at face value,) then security may escort said individual immediately to the HoP in order to receive a replacement. I haven't seen anyone dispute this when it gets brought up in-game, but for the sake of posterity I'll point out it's not actually written down anywhere in SoP when it probably should be.

During Code Red, officers do receive access to lethal armory gear, but there should be stipulations about how to use lethal equipment during a Code Red situation. Obvious threats like xenos and nukies don't really need a lot of instructions, but there need to be some rules if Code Red is used for a more murky situation like an extremely robust hijack traitor

During Code Red, officers may use lethal force in self-defence (particularly if there is an attempt made to steal an officer's weaponry), or to confront an individual guilty of a crime at Exceptional severity or higher (The only crimes at 'Exceptional' severity are Murder, Manslaughter, Grand Sabotage, and Grand Theft, so repeatedly looting the hand teleporter on Red Alert as a joke might not end well). Officers should always attempt to use nonlethal force when resolving crimes of Major severity, but a crewman guilty of a Major crime who evades nonlethal detainment must either surrender willingly or, if they are worried about confronting security, surrender themselves to a member of command, at which point they will be transferred into security's custody. If a crewman commits a major crime on Code Red, evades nonlethal detainment, and refuses to surrender to custody, security should be permitted to use lethal force. Note that certainty is important here: if an officer's poor judgement or hubris leads to lethal force being used on an innocent, the offending officer should be demoted and charged with either aggravated assault, manslaughter, or murder. Medium crimes should always warrant nonlethal force. Repeated, consecutive Medium crimes during a Code Red situation may result in prolonged, conditional detainment until the Code Red alert is cleared. Minor crimes during Code Red should be noted in the crewmember's record, but security should refrain from prosecuting minor crimes during Code Red until the alert level is reduced to Blue or Green. Certain minor crimes may have their severity escalated based on context, especially if the crimes directly impede the crew's attempts to confront whatever crisis warranted Code Red. (e.g. A doctor hoarding surgical equipment and hiding it away from the wards on Code Green counts as petty theft; doing this during a Shadowling crisis could be charged as a major crime, or even as aiding and abetting the Shadowling if the crewmember demonstrates enough pettiness. A clown slipping officers trying to confront a blob situation should be thrown in a cell until the blob is dealt with, etc.)

The intention here is to drastically reduce the number of distractions that security is forced to deal with during a crisis situation. While adherence to SoP is important for curbing shitcurity during calmer moments, it's a liability when dealing with a crisis. So for instance if I as a non-antag, slip and kidnap a shotgun-toting officer on Code Red, then try to use methpatches to make myself flashbang immune as a non-antag, well... firstly, I'd expect to be straight up banned since that's basically self-antagging, but otherwise if the admins are busy then security should be able to treat self-antagging players on Code Red as if the offending party were actual antags. Again, the intent here is that Code Red should be reserved only for exceptionally dangerous situations when security needs to work without distractions to deal with a primary threat. Code Red should not be the immediate go-to button for when any EoCs are identified at all, but only for situations where Security is at risk of losing control of the station.

 

Wrapping Up

Currently, the only appreciable difference between Code Blue and Code Red SoP is that Code Red permits officers to detain without warning (and even then, only when evidence connects the detainee to a crime), and officers can forcefully escort crew back to their departments (I have never seen this enforced without causing major griping about shitcurity from the crew). The HoS can technically authorize lethals on blue (generally there needs to be a good reason for it, but the same judgement applies when requesting Code Red). I argue that making the alert levels more varied gives Command more precision in controlling what Security is allowed to bring to bear.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Machofish

[Regular Joe]

21 hours ago, Machofish said:

 I argue that making the alert levels more varied gives Command more precision in controlling what Security is allowed to bring to bear.

Good stuff, agreeing. More precision for command to control with more precise alert level SOP, so that just simply changing them according to the situation works (better) as standing orders for sec and crew, that's quite the idea of alert levels in general. As well at it would seem to suit the RP/game/station's general atmosphere so that the antag-sec situation would materialize a bit more to the other crew too. The point of efficiency is a good one aswell. Now that I read this and thought it over again, I'd say that this kind of edit might be a good idea. Maybe four levels that can get used on regular basis including a 'suspected' and 'confirmed threat' in two varieties, plus the gamma and others, as of I thought first on, would be too much for the fast timeframe we got, I don't know.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Regular Joe

[Biolock]

I agree; I think that the impact of a code red alert is often lost on the fact that it is so common and persistent. It would be nice to see less than the maximum level of response from security, as well as an increase in security response when necessary. It'd also be neat for there to be a command issued "Bio-hazard" emergency to allow security to force quarantine (idk maybe it's that Covid speaking to me)