Abydos Complaint

[Octus]

Admin(s) Key:Abydos2
Your ckey (Byond username): Octus
Your Discord name (if applicable): Octus

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): Should be around 4:30am, it was like 11:40PM my time (Central)

Nature of complaint: Rude, Banning people for the sake of Banning. Ignoring Context in situations
(Select all that apply: EG - clarification required, misapplication of rules, misconduct, abuse of powers, feedback, other)
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): Admin decided to ban a player who wanted to kill themselves with a mini syndie bomb during a nuke ops round in a secluded area, admin was rude towards other person of said situation.

Full description of events:

So let me give you a description of the situation, it was 11PM at night, Nuclear operatives had all been defeated and a crew major victory had occurred. @Jayne Steller was dressed as a security officer (the person who was banned) and told me they had a Mini Syndicate Bomb. We talked about blowing ourselves in a secluded location away from the public, because 1. The round was going to be over shortly, and 2. Because I said why not its a nuke op round and I really didn't care. We decided to go to the main Sci hallway (which was pretty much non existent due to a Plasma fire that had destroyed (robotics, RnD, toxins etc.) and I told the person to blow us both up together. As I layed on the ground waiting to get gibbed, the bomb went off. Sending us both into crit. I wanted to ghost so I tried to commit suicide by typing "suicide" only for moments later for Abydos to revive me to full HP (for some reason) and ban the other person who I had consented to blowing myself up with them. Moments later I asked if said person was banned in Ahelp, Abydos replied with "I have dealt with them" and I asked "was it about me" only for them to rudely respond with "thats none of your concern" when in reality it is my concern because I was the "victim" in this situation even tho I never asked for anyone to help me. Funnily enough for something not being my concern, Abydos decided to moments later warn me for "telling another player to kill me"  even if said both party's consented to death and no other person except the consenting parties were harmed. I already know what Abydos is going to say in this thread so let me just list my counter points on their arguments.

• "You were in primary science that is not a secluded area, someone was "close by"
  • This is incorrect and your taking the entire situation out of context, a majority of the crew were already on the shuttle ready to leave and this "not secluded area" was by the end of a round completely ash from (what I assume was the syndie sabotage Borgs work) plasma fire and was COMPLETELY abandoned, no other person was in the area of the blast and no other parties were affected by this and this person Abydos says was "near by" is very vague and didn't even bother to tell us "said" location of the "near by" person, By the way, id like to make it clear that this  "near by" person was NOT affected at all by our explosion and seems like an excuse to perma ban a player for no reason. I can understand if another player gets harmed, but we took precautions to make sure both parties were the only people affected in the blast. yet the admin seems to think that blowing up and already destroyed science with a mini syndicate bomb and no other persons in said blast range is really that much of something to perma ban someone over? it seems excessive. 
• The rudeness
  • When you rudely tell me "its none of my concern" when I am the literal other person of the situation only to completely 180 and then try to make it my concern by warning me it comes off as incredibly rude,disrespectful and almost like your using your power to threaten me. I asked you nicely about the situation and only received hostility from your part.

  Now I understand why they did it. Rules are rules, but your taking a massive amount of context out of the situation and banning players for the sake of banning, I respectfully believe that you should enforce rules when players actually Ahelp you about it, not banning people who consent to something and is not affecting the game to a point where the round is over is excessive. As an admin you shouldn't be banning people who already know the rules, are trying to have fun,  are the people who play on your server all the time, and ignoring the context of said situation. If another person was harmed in the blast, I completely understand. But no other person was harmed in our fun little self destruct. And it completely ruined the night of two active players because some admin seems to enforce rules for the sake of rules.

[Abydos]

Admin's version of events:

As the shuttle landed at the station, during a nuclear emergency round, you started screaming at another player demanding that you go boom with them. Said player had a syndicate mini-bomb that a nukie had dropped before he could set it off, you kept hounding the player screaming within your own words;

Quote

[2020-04-27T04:40:09] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (166,124,1): (headset) 'TIME TO BOOM'

[2020-04-27T04:40:12] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (165,128,1): (headset) 'WHERE GO'

[2020-04-27T04:40:22] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (140,129,1): (headset) 'VOXXY WANT TO BOOM'

[2020-04-27T04:40:41] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (180,129,1): (headset) 'TORI'

[2020-04-27T04:40:48] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (182,129,1): (headset) 'VOXXY BOOM'

[2020-04-27T04:40:50] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (189,129,1): (headset) 'WHERE AT'

[2020-04-27T04:41:07] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (178,128,1): (headset) 'YAYA'

[2020-04-27T04:41:12] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (175,128,1): (headset) 'LET VOXXY BOOM'

[2020-04-27T04:41:30] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (181,118,1): 'BOOM'

[2020-04-27T04:41:35] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (182,118,1): 'YAYA'

[2020-04-27T04:41:39] SAY: Octus/(Tokorizo) (180,118,1): 'LES GO'

And just as the shuttle left, said player triggered the bomb in-between the area of roboticts and RnD, with another player standing near science, merely to kill each other.

Admin's reasoning for actions:

I'm going to copy and paste what I've informed the other player here;

Quote

The rules are there to be followed by everyone, and to ensure that both the spirit of the rules, the spirit of the server and the overall gameplay is not effected by negative elements. An example of this would be a Civilian stepping off the arrival shuttle and is immediately culted by someone camping arrivals, or an antag releasing the engine when their objective was to steal the NAD as a "Distraction". The same rules apply to non-antags in the same way, much like a civilian dragging a welding tank to the front of the bridge and blowing it up, or a medical doctor killing someone because they hate them, to the bartender breaking into the armory to change his double barrel to a riot shotgun. It may be fun to them, for their enjoyment, but not fun for everyone else it effects.

The rules are there to ensure that things of theses nature do not happen, and to ensure that everyone is having the same experience, the same treatment and same enjoyment as each other. Admins enforce those rules and ensure they are followed, people are either warned and reminded of the rules or given a ban when the situation is very serious. 

Players do not get to decide when, where, how, what or why they should follow the rules. Two players may not decide "Rules be damned", throw them away and start killing each other merely because they "consented" to it. The rules state quite clearly that violence is never allowed until after the shuttle docks at CC, and if you plan on killing or harming anyone before such, admins must be informed and asked for permission. What if someone had walked into science, just as you threw that grenade and killed someone who had not consented? What if someone walked into science, after the fact and gets sucked into the hole in space you left there, and died? There are unknown factors that you must consider.. it could be fun to throw a grenade someplace, but how would it effect everyone else?

Before the round had ended, you effectively created a rather dangerous situation merely to kill each other, and threw every worry or caution to the wind,  that ended up ultimately breaking the rules. You may not see a problem with your actions and view them as harmless, but it can and may be more damaging than you imagine. Anyone could of walked within that area, now deemed hazardous and died due to your actions. You would of effectively murdered someone who had no knowledge you had ever done theses actions, with no warning to point towards it, nor as you put it "consented" to you creating a sudden death-trap on the entrance of science. If players could consent to breaking the rules, there would be no rules and the server would be in chaos. There would be little point to admins if anyone on a whim may deem "I don't feel like following this rule and could be more fun for me if I don't". People cannot and really should not decide that rules do not apply to them and they can be broken whenever they deem so.

I view the same thing applies here. You may not see an issue with your actions, but others ultimate will. You may not see an issue with disregarding the rules, but if you disregard the rules and influence other players to also disregard the rules.. then what is the point of the rules if you may break them whenever you deem so and not except admins to get involved? Rules are there for a reason, to be followed and enforced.. not there to be a convenience, only followed and enforced some of the time and broken whenever people deem it so.

Merely because an area is broken, or slightly damaged (Science was still very much standing) does not mean, other players may come along, look at the damage and decided that it's not damaged enough and add onto it. If you were an antag or a nukie, it'd make sense.. a random crewmember suddenly turning suicidal, influencing another crewmember to join him in some suicide pack with an explosive on the door-step of a department.. does not.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing or disputing of:

I don't see any wrong doing on my part. I was perhaps a little aggressive in saying that I cannot discuss what admin actions I've taken with someone else to you and consent to that.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Abydos

[Octus]

Funnily enough, after posting this and going to bed. I woke up only to see that my "Warning" for something that was "none of my concern" turned into a Perma Ban which is not only ridiculous but rather almost as if my ban was influenced by the making of this thread, they apparently "discussed it with the other admins." Either way id like to dispute some claims that Abydos has made because like I said before,  perma banning people for such a small thing is incredibly excessive.

• And just as the shuttle left, said player triggered the bomb in-between the area of roboticts and RnD, with another player standing near science, merely to kill each other
  • Again im wondering who is this "other player" you keep talking about, where they affected by the blast? where they killed in said blast? did the player in the area "report" the situation. These are all things you should take into context because if that players round is still fine and the only people affected in the situation are the people who wanted to die, I see no problem with it at all. Personally the only person who seems deeply offended of the situation at all is Abydos who decided the permaban 2 people because rules are rules.
    •  

[Octus]

So after waking up and going to bed, I woke up learning that my "warning" for a problem that was "none of my concern" turned into a straight permaban. I personally believe that its a little bias to ban someone moments after they post an Admin complaint on said admin. The admin said they "discussed it" with the other admins but I really dont believe that influenced the reason why my "warning" turned into a perma ban. Im pretty sure Abydos did not like the fact that I made an admin complaint against them so they decided to ban me entirely from the server even if the last message I got from them was a "warning" not only is this not productive but like ive said before the ban is extremely excessive for 2 people who had no impact on the server. Id like to question the admin on why they decided to conveniently perma ban after I made this thread, I understand they apparently "talked with the others" but who are these others? and why after? Did they discuss my situation with the other admins in order to validate my swift ban and remove me? Im truly curious abydos.

Id also like to counter point some claims Abydos has made because I still disagree with how they moderate and their mentality on what a good moderator should be.

• And just as the shuttle left, said player triggered the bomb in-between the area of roboticts and RnD, with another player standing near science, merely to kill each other.
  • Id like to know more about why you keep using this "other player" in the influence of the ban. Was said person affected? bothered? reported the situation? If none of these things are valid then what is the point for using this argument. You seem to use this as an excuse to make it seem like you were protecting someone else but in reality no other people at all were affected by said situation. And yes, the round was pretty much over and we decided to kill each other in style, an issue I believe really had no impact on the round end
• The rules are there to be followed by everyone, and to ensure that both the spirit of the rules, the spirit of the server and the overall game play is not effected by negative elements. An example of this would be a Civilian stepping off the arrival shuttle and is immediately culted by someone camping arrivals, or an antag releasing the engine when their objective was to steal the NAD as a "Distraction". The same rules apply to non-antags in the same way, much like a civilian dragging a welding tank to the front of the bridge and blowing it up, or a medical doctor killing someone because they hate them, to the bartender breaking into the armory to change his double barrel to a riot shotgun. It may be fun to them, for their enjoyment, but not fun for everyone else it effects.
  • Look i understand rules are rules and thats fine. What I dont understand is why you use all these terrible comparisons for our situation. Your using greify, round endy, and not similar at all situations to validate your claims. These examples you list ruin the game for other people or cause mass chaos for the sake of chaos. Comparing 2 people who wanted to blow themselves up in a secluded area away from other people with a pathetic syndicate mini bomb to the likes of welder bombers on the public, or a medical doctor straight up killing people and ruining their round because of a meta-grudge is not a fair and valid comparison to the situation at all and is a bit of a straw-man. And again whos fun did we "ruin" with our little suicide, no other person seems to be upset about it except the banning admin.
• The rules are there to ensure that things of theses nature do not happen, and to ensure that everyone is having the same experience, the same treatment and same enjoyment as each other. Admins enforce those rules and ensure they are followed, people are either warned and reminded of the rules or given a ban when the situation is very serious. 
  • Please go into more detail how 2 players who consented to blowing themselves up and not harming anyone else in the explosion is a "very serious" situation. I can understand if it was a bigger bomb like a syndie bomb or maxcap but the bomb was mini bomb. We did not cause a massive hull breach to an already destroyed science, we did not kill anyone else but ourselves in the explosion, and we did not influence the round in any way with said bomb.
• Players do not get to decide when, where, how, what or why they should follow the rules. Two players may not decide "Rules be damned", throw them away and start killing each other merely because they "consented" to it. The rules state quite clearly that violence is never allowed until after the shuttle docks at CC, and if you plan on killing or harming anyone before such, admins must be informed and asked for permission. What if someone had walked into science, just as you threw that grenade and killed someone who had not consented? What if someone walked into science, after the fact and gets sucked into the hole in space you left there, and died? There are unknown factors that you must consider.. it could be fun to throw a grenade someplace, but how would it effect everyone else?
  • Again, im fine with rule enforcement when someone actually reports it, also this "you may not commit violence" or harm others rule" is very different depending on the admin your talking about, ive talked to admins before hand when it comes to this and sometimes their fine with it, as long as both parties consent and nobody else is affected. But I will admit that I did not ahelp because I assumed that such a minor situation would result in such a massive backlash from one admin. Also the argument of "what if" is not really a valid one because your making your claims of assumptions and thoughts that did not factor into the situation. For example you say that what if someone had walked into science and killed someone else who had not consented. This should not even be a point, because A no other person was affected by this and B your argument boils down to a Hypothetical situation, I can use this same logic on almost anything to validate a ban, which really isn't what an admin should be doing, they should be analyzing the situation, checking if there are any offended parties, and making sure everyone is having fun at the end of the day. And if someone else WAS affected by the situation then by all means, go ahead and enforce the rules, but again your argument is based mostly on Hypothetical and what if, and that is a very dangerous way to think.
• Before the round had ended, you effectively created a rather dangerous situation merely to kill each other, and threw every worry or caution to the wind,  that ended up ultimately breaking the rules. You may not see a problem with your actions and view them as harmless, but it can and may be more damaging than you imagine. Anyone could of walked within that area, now deemed hazardous and died due to your actions. You would of effectively murdered someone who had no knowledge you had ever done theses actions, with no warning to point towards it, nor as you put it "consented" to you creating a sudden death-trap on the entrance of science. If players could consent to breaking the rules, there would be no rules and the server would be in chaos. There would be little point to admins if anyone on a whim may deem "I don't feel like following this rule and could be more fun for me if I don't". People cannot and really should not decide that rules do not apply to them and they can be broken whenever they deem so.
  • I wouldn't really say dangerous is the best word to use in this argument, I would say more of an inconvenience at best. And if we really did not care about the worry's of others or caution in general we would have just blew ourselves up on the shuttle with nearby players, but surprise! we did not because we actually bothered to check our surroundings before self destructing and going somewhere that wouldn't affect any other players. Again were back to the arguments of hypothetical , the argument of "what if you had killed someone else in the blast", again. Your argument boils down to what ifs. Until you actually show me someone else was affected this point should be invalidated, the only time you should use another player was harmed when an actual player WAS harmed, if someone got hurt in that blast that was neither us two, I would have taken full responsibility and understood my ban, but thats not what happend, yet you keep pressing on with the idea that someone coulda gotten hurt but in reality, it never happen and shouldn't even be a valid talking point unless it was reality, but its not. Also why use the words "death trap" as if we made the area on the intent to capture and kill other people in the area, not only is this word disingenuous its laughable wording at best, but your saying that any person (who was not on the shuttle at the time) would walk into science, see the handful of open tiles that show space, stand there for (however long it takes to die from pressure damage which is EASILY avoidable and takes a while) and not even bother to simply walk past the hole like any normal person is a very far stretched idea of a "death trap" and one could argue that every single one breach tile into space is also a death trap with the same logic.
• I view the same thing applies here. You may not see an issue with your actions, but others ultimate will. You may not see an issue with disregarding the rules, but if you disregard the rules and influence other players to also disregard the rules.. then what is the point of the rules if you may break them whenever you deem so and not except admins to get involved? Rules are there for a reason, to be followed and enforced.. not there to be a convenience, only followed and enforced some of the time and broken whenever people deem it so.
  • You see Aby, the problem isn't that we have rules, the problem is your enforcing rules for the sake of enforcing rules. As an admin I believe it is your job to make sure that players are happy and anyone who believes they were wronged can make complaints, based on people who report rule breaking. If 2 people want to do something in a secluded area at round end that will in no way affect other players then it really is something that should be ignored. Im not saying ignore rules or turn a blind eye to every single rule break, im more saying that if someone feels wronged and they decided to ahelp you, then by all means please get involved and enforce said rules. But if you ignore the context of the situation and ban people because they broke rules, even if (hate to sound like a broken record here) had no affect on the round, harmed no other people, and both parties consented. Then your just enforcing because muh rules. And both of us (Me the Other Banned person) are obviously smart enough to know that running up to people who dont consent and blowing ourselves up is obviously against the rules. And we would never do it in a serious game because we actually care about other peoples rounds.
• Merely because an area is broken, or slightly damaged (Science was still very much standing) does not mean, other players may come along, look at the damage and decided that it's not damaged enough and add onto it. If you were an antag or a nukie, it'd make sense.. a random crew member suddenly turning suicidal, influencing another crew member to join him in some suicide pack with an explosive on the door-step of a department.. does not.
  • Science was NOT standing, the RnD department was ash, all of robotics machines were destroyed, Toxins was ash and all its walls were melted due to the plasma fire, including areas around toxins. Again, this would make sense if this was a normal round like traitors,vamps,etc on why going boom is bad. but your ignoring the fact this was a 30 min nukes ops round and the area was secluded from the public and the shuttle had already left with a crew major victory. The idea that player Bill76 is going to see our dead corpses and think, "hmmm y'know. Im gonna cause some damage too", is again. another hypothetical argument with no substance and mostly irrational thinking on the admins part.

Ill refrain from posting anything else, as I wanted to give an update that I was banned after posting this thread and I believe that the ban is rather unjust and extremely bias towards me. I also wanted to list some counter points and Im not sure if this NULLs my thread but either way, if I can give my opinion on the situation and say that Aby is ignoring context to an extreme I will. Either way, I hope to hear back from you Aby.  and everyone elses thoughts. 

[necaladun]

Hi there, first of all it appears to me that the ban was placed before this complaint was posted, so I don't see any evidence that this was placed as retribution for the admin complaint.

This was in fact "discussed" with other admins, with 2 other admins supporting it being turned into a ban.

Your tone seems to suggest you think there's some kind of conspiracy here against you, but looking through the logs that's utterly not the case, no matter how many words you put quotation marks around.

 

What you seem to absolutely fail to grasp in this situation is that you had no IC reason to blow up part of the station, and cause two deaths. The fact that two people consent is irrelevant here - two people maybe consent to ERP, or the use of racial slurs. That would still be disallowed. 

This doesn't mean the actions have no effect on others. It's expected on this server that you RP, not commit suicide in a painful manner because the round is over. Especially not in a way that risks damaging other, non consenting parties, either through explosion or depressure. People completely ignoring all roleplay does affect the server as a whole.

It being near the end of the round also doesn't change the rules - the rules only change when the scoreboard shows and the round is truly over. Then you're free to blow yourself and as many other people up as you want. We in fact encourage it. But while the round is on, suicide-with-explosives is not on, especially for entirely OOC reasons. 

It being a nuke ops round with other things destroyed still changes nothing. 

 

What you did does thus in fact break the rules, and thus the complaint is invalid.