Potential Vox changes and ideas.

[Onyxarias]

Vox, for a long time now, have been an integrally unbalanced race. Back in the days of yesteryear, they had a feature removed that made them space proof, but...nothing else was changed to compensate for this loss. They still remain an unclonable race, same as the significantly more powerful Slimeperson race, and only retain very small plus sides compared to the race's immense downsides (bones that are easier to break, a 20% vulnerability to brute damage, relying on specialized internals, etc.).

I'd like to put forward a few potential suggestions of features to add to the Vox, and to open discussion for other features and balance, to make them feel more unique as a 45 karma race, and to hopefully help balance them out compared to other comparable races.

 

Here are two of the features that have been discussed in discussions I have been in:

 

Making Vox Faster:  Lorewise, Vox are a speedy race. They tend to avoid combat where possible, and will only fight if necessary. It would allow them to evade harm easier, and I don't feel it would make them any more powerful in combat, as the listed 20% Vulnerability to Brute damage remains, ensureing that any hits the opponent DOES land is more likely to cripple the Vox player in question. Another way this could be implemented, is in a speed-burst ability instead of a constant change, as per their lore page: "Despite their size, Primalis musculature is highly dense and capable of extremely powerful and rapid movement. Primalis physiology is ideal for sprinting and repetitive tasks, with experts surmising that the Armalis may be the predominant military force in Vox Society, while the Primalis seem engineered with labour in mind. Despite their engineered physiology, Primalis are still largely susceptible to the build-up of lactic acid in the muscles--rendering their often short bursts of speed little more than that, darting from task to task."

 

Natural Shock Insulation: As described on the wiki, Vox Primalis have a tough, highly resistant outer layer, born of their intention of being the labour race for the Vox as a whole. Along with their natural gift for engineering and construction, it would therefore make sense that they would also have natural insulation due to the thick keratin scales that reinforce their skin. It would add an interesting feature to the race, while remaining not too powerful as too make them the ideal choice for powergaming players: gloves are easy enough to obtain if you know how, and traitors have simple, cheap access to combat gloves as it is. 

 

 

This thread is open for more topics of discussion, or suggestions that others may have to improve and change Vox to be a more interesting race, and to give them upsides to make up for the downsides they face.

 

 

[Pyrodes]

+1, would like to see these implemented ingame

[Sprixa]

Hihi, As a Vox main, it is painful to see other races with boons and yearn for them.

---------
RE: Speed Boost

I think round-start speedboost, as one of the admins mentioned in a previous conversation, is a bit much. In addition, the lore argues that Vox have short bursts of speed. Previously, I am told they had the leap ability. Roundstart speedboost will edge Vox back towards a race that is mainly used for powergaming. Many of us who like to play Vox do so for the RP and the "community". As a spitball idea here, what about an action called "Speedburst", for example, that would function on Stamina and be timer-constrained?
 

/datum/action/innate/speedburst/Activate()
	var/mob/living/carbon/human/user = owner
	if((user.restrained() && user.pulledby) || user.buckled)
		to_chat(user, "<span class='warning'>You need freedom of movement to go fast!</span>")
		return
	if(user.getStaminaLoss() >= 50)
		to_chat(user, "<span class='warning'>Rest before bursting again!</span>")
		return
	
	to_chat(user,"<span class='warning'>You feel a burst of energy in your legs!</span>")
	user.adjustStaminaLoss(20)
	addtimer(user, user.status_flags &= GOTTAGOFAST, 15)
	user.status_flags |= GOTTAGOFAST
	return

This could function like the Unathi "Tail Lash" action. Don't quote me on the code. I don't know if it works it doesn't work - I'm new to coding and just mocked it up based on the Unathi "Tail Lash".

A 15-second burst of speed for 20 stamina doesn't seem too bad. After all, "[Vox's] often short bursts of speed [are] little more than that".

---------
RE: Shock Immunity

Hmm. Shock Immunity would allow Vox to go and hack doors, vendors, etc. and make them shocked with no consequences to their own health. I'm all for balancing and lore, but I don't want to make certain races more useful for antags than others without tradeoffs.

And, hey, what the heck, Plasmemes? Shouldn't they have a lower Burn damage modifier instead of a higher one? 

---------
 

Quote

to give them upsides to make up for the downsides they face.

Organs not decaying is great and all. What's even better is when it's not applied to everyone else as well. What would be best is if it even mattered. Baldbay just sticks Vox in the Cloner and declares them "dead" and "There's nothing we can do, Jim". Or they shove those Crit Vox into cryotubes and watche them die. Oh, huh, how did that happen? Oh well, you're dead now and they don't know what SR is. Sometimes, they do, but they don't use it on you for one reason or another. Maybe they don't like your scale colors? I'd happily surrender NO_DECAY.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sprixa

[SteelSlayer]

I agree Vox need some love right now. I think both are fairly good ideas. I like the idea of a short speed boost. It should honestly only last a few seconds, as speed is basically one of the most powerful things in SS13. Also, I don't know about full shock immunity but I could definitely see a resistance to the damage it deals, or perhaps the ability to shrug off the stun of the shock, but still take damage.

Edited September 15, 2020 by SteelSlayer

[Onyxarias]

I agree with both of you, to be honest. What I had thrown up were some general ideas, and it's great to hear some feedback on them.

The speed boost SHOULD be a temporary thing, locked to an ability like the Unathi tail-sweep. It fits the lore really well, and would allow a Vox to make a quick getaway if they need to, while keeping it balanced.

As for the shock, yeah, full immunity is OP as skrek. I like the idea of having them merely be immune to the stun of it, while taking the burn damage.

 

[MarsMond]

Think ignoring the shock stun will basically instantly kill them, currently. At least for hacking, you get shocked, and then the code goes "still interacting with the wires? Time to shock.", repeat that until no longer interacting due to crit. Makes kinda sense, as nothing seems to have a breaker/fuse, as long as you are touching an electrified wire, that'll shock you.
Getting a potentially shorter stun and lower burn damage would be more feasible.

[Corocan]

I'd like to think not dying to EMPs was the sort of 'buff' Vox got when their spaceproofing got removed, but if you want to keep in line with lore without getting too out of hand, maybe something like Vox start with dwarfism could suffice.

[EmilyFontaine]

16 minutes ago, Corocan said:

I'd like to think not dying to EMPs was the sort of 'buff' Vox got when their spaceproofing got removed

I forgot that was a thing. I do agree with the general consensus on this thread, though. Vox maluses outweigh their boons. The speed burst ability might be neat, though it should be short duration with a hefty cooldown. Might encourage security to start aiming more for legs instead of head/chest with lethal weapons. Might also encourage security to just blast them because they expect changeling or adrenals right away. Hard to predict, but I'd like to see it in practice.

[BadWorksFun]

+1 Vox do seem to be worst race at the moment.

 

[Carthusia]

Personally Id love the dwarfism bit, its alwyas odd seeing full sized vox, when their supposed to be 3-4ft tall.

[Sprixa]

The current "buffs" Vox have:

• No Skeletonization (gives Medbay time to make SR and revive Vox who died however long ago! Very nice!)
• Organs don't rot while inside the body (hope they don't do that for other races); Organs don't rot outside the body (works for other races if you stick them in a freezer) (also works for other races regardless until a recent PR is merged)
• Silent Footsteps (sneaky raptorbirb)
• Able to process both synthetic and organic reagents (Vox can get high off of ultralube patches)

The current "maluses" Vox have:

• Bones break easier = Translates to a +20% brute damage taken modifier since there isn't currently code to break bones more easily
• Oxygen is toxic
• Cannot be cloned
  • NO_CLONE, NO_SCAN, recent fix to the diona pod bug
• -60% alcohol tolerance (aww)
• Remain vulnerable to organ death when revived with Strange Reagent (this includes limbs, like the head, the groin, the arms, etc.)

Unmentioned:

• Special Vox Masks (only found on beak when spawning && in emergency box when spawning)
• Specialized N2 tanks (spawn, two smaller ones in Medbay Storage, specialized ones can be ordered through Cargo two at a time, can refill from tanks in Atmospherics)
• Vox Sprites are bigger than other sprites
• <debatable> CMO antag, Chemist antag, Donkpocket antag, might not get SR - this is definitely IC! Other races do not have their revivability as dependent on specific issues, however </debatable>

Notes:

• Don't get arrested - sometimes Security will cause you to go into Crit by removing your tank by accident. They're not "shitcurity", they just don't understand that *Uniform == Tank* and *Handcuffs == Can't Pick up Tank*. It's not their fault, forgive them. They put the tank in your pocket. They tell you they don't know how to set your internals and ask you to do it. You ask them to remove handcuffs. You promise to put them back on. They are two -- no wait, now there's three -- three of them and just one of you! They won't remove the handcuffs. O-o-oh sk-k-k-r-r-e-e-k! You're dying now. They call for BrigPhys. Gasp! x__x; Hope Medbay has SR.
• Only trust some doctors. Otherwise you get the Anesthesia Tank. Hihi darkness, Voxxy's old friend~~

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sprixa

[Carthusia]

1 minute ago, Sprixa said:

The current "buffs" Vox have:

• Silent Footsteps (sneaky raptorbirb)

I've never really been clear on why this is a "boon", footsteps are already insanely quiet and overshadowed by all other sounds in the game with even the ambient noises covering them up and apparently only can be heard within maint? (Need clarification on that), with the one exception being jackboots which still make the sound.

 

[Sprixa]

4 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

Personally Id love the dwarfism bit, its alwyas odd seeing full sized vox, when their supposed to be 3-4ft tall.

It could be PR'd.

The NO_CLONE thing is already a trade-off, honestly. However, we could throw in a weaker "move_resist" as well:

 

/datum/species/vox/on_species_gain(mob/living/carbon/human/H)
	..()
	updatespeciescolor(H)
	H.resize = 0.8
	H.update_transform()
	H.move_resist = MOVE_FORCE_WEAK
	H.update_icons()


/datum/species/vox/on_species_loss(mob/living/carbon/human/H)
	..()
	H.resize = 1.25
	H.update_transform()
	H.move_resist = MOVE_FORCE_NORMAL
	H.update_icons()

Full-on DWARF gene includes the "PASSTABLE" flag. Round-start PASSTABLE would be a bit much, which is what we've seen on a Paradise down-stream server. @SteelSlayer
 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sprixa

[Onyxarias]

On the topic of the footsteps, I feel it would be a MUCH greater boon if Para had the footstep sounds/styles present on /tg/ based servers.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Onyxarias

[Carthusia]

1 minute ago, Sprixa said:

It could be PR'd.

The NO_CLONE thing is already a trade-off, honestly. However, we could throw in a weaker "move_resist" as well:
 

Whats a weaker "Move_resist" mean exactly mechanically?

 

Please don't tell me it makes them unable to push or pull heavy things

[Sprixa]

3 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

Whats a weaker "Move_resist" mean exactly mechanically?

 

Please don't tell me it makes them unable to push or pull heavy things

That would be "move_force".
"move_resist" is how easy or hard it is to move the mob the value is assigned to. "move_resist = MOVE_FORCE_WEAK" makes it so easy that even animals, like PunPun, can push past you. Granted, now that you're the closer to the size of PunPun... 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sprixa

[Carthusia]

Ive seen the idea of being easier/harder to push and pull be done, and it hasn't exactly worked out in a way id enjoy.

 

The lack of pushing especially killed the ability for vox to work in cargo as one example. They also get trapped alot behind things while building, exploring or just walking around, and require either an admin to save them or a player, neither of them being ideal solutions. Its alot better just keeping it so people can pull/push people regardless of size for simplicity sake

 

As for being able to push past easier, as an example, punpun already pushes past people and so do many animals, so i'm not sure what changes there.

Edited September 15, 2020 by BlackDog

[Sprixa]

13 hours ago, MarsMond said:

Getting a potentially shorter stun and lower burn damage would be more feasible.

That's an idea!

[BeanOS]

Tip taps into vox thread all sneaky like

Ok so... yous hear voxxy out... give voxxy more skree yaya... is all goods?

[Mitchs98]

1 hour ago, Sprixa said:

No Skeletonization (gives Medbay time to make SR and revive Vox who died however long ago! Very nice!)

This actually doesn't affect revival in any way at all, contrary to what you would think about it. This is purely visual. You can SR/revive a skeletonized corpse just as well as any other. 

Yes Skeleton-Voxxy can live freely :D.

 

That said, while I don't believe you should be playing a race for mechanical advantages as it goes against the spirit of the game...I can agree that Voxes could use some changes given most of their 'boons' aren't too relevant to gameplay 90% of the time. Especially silent walking.

[Eler00]

SR working on skeletons could probably stand to get changed, then.

[Mitchs98]

1 minute ago, Eler00 said:

SR working on skeletons could probably stand to get changed, then.

I don't see any reason why it should, at all.

[Onyxarias]

7 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

This actually doesn't affect revival in any way at all, contrary to what you would think about it. This is purely visual. You can SR/revive a skeletonized corpse just as well as any other. 

Yes Skeleton-Voxxy can live freely :D.

 

That said, while I don't believe you should be playing a race for mechanical advantages as it goes against the spirit of the game...I can agree that Voxes could use some changes given most of their 'boons' aren't too relevant to gameplay 90% of the time. Especially silent walking.

Those have been my thoughts exactly. I enjoy playing Vox despite their mechanical drawbacks, simply because I find them fun to play as a race. But at the same time, I just wish for them to be brought up to speed with some of the other races, without giving them such a hug mechanical advantage that they would be THE race to play for anyone seeking to be the most mechanically powerful.

 

[Eler00]

39 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

I don't see any reason why it should, at all.

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but tldr: The idea of SR is the corpse needs to be mostly intact or it freaking gibs you, a skeleton is the opposite of intact even if this isn't represented by actual damage.

EDIT: On double-checking, it appears that being a skeleton DOES prevent SR revival. makeSkeleton() gives you NOCLONE on top of SKELETON.

As for the Vox buff, dwarfism has been discussed before, I believe. At the time, people were against it since dwarfism is fairly strong mechanically, but it would definitely be very fitting. The speed burst idea might be too strong. Having even just a short burst of speed means getting away from any attacker since everyone else runs at the exact same speed.

2 hours ago, Sprixa said:

The NO_CLONE thing is already a trade-off, honestly.

They don't have NOCLONE, they "just" have NO_SCAN. NOCLONE prevents even things like SR or diona pods. It's rather confusingly named.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Eler00

[Sprixa]

38 minutes ago, Eler00 said:

They don't have NOCLONE, they "just" have NO_SCAN. NOCLONE prevents even things like SR or diona pods. It's rather confusingly named.

Diona pods don't work for Vox as of yesterday. Thanks for the clarification on NOCLONE!

 

Quote

Having even just a short burst of speed means getting away from any attacker since everyone else runs at the exact same speed.

To be fair, Meth exists and other races have things that different races don't. Telepathy, no blood, tail lash, APC feeding, no hunger, different hunger rates, different eye damage rates, different brute/burn damage rates. There are a bunch of "trade-offs" that Vox have that many people think they should just have because they remember a time when Vox had spaceproof and still hold Vox to that standard of "because spaceproof, these tradeoffs". Speedburst is controversial, I agree. Originally it was pitched as an all-the-time movement speed enhancement, which is definitely much! I heard there used to be a thing called leap and that it was taken away. I don't know, I haven't been around long. 

I don't want to see Vox become a powergame race. I'd like to see it become a little bit more unique and there. Speedburst gives too much of a combat advantage? Okay, let's go with something else.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Sprixa