Remove the ability to become a contractor with hijack

[Spacemanspark]

What it says on the tin. Either hijack antagonists with contractor fizzle out and do nearly nothing, or they gain almost 40+ TC and proceed to hardcore murderbone. I don't believe either option is really viable for us, and it may be best to separate the two from each other. 

[Carthusia]

Perhaps if a hijacker takes the contractor job, it removes their hijack objective and they are 100% set on their other objectives?

[Machofish]

So, disclaimer: my understanding of contractor isn't that solid. I don't know how much potential bonus TC a contractor can earn, or how much TC is awarded per successful capture. I'll operate on the premise that Spark is being literal with the "almost 40+ TC" comment, but anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I think the big problem here is that the two roles aren't designed to be combined: Contractors are supposed to have high TC, but their weakness is that they're strongly discouraged from going loud and lethal. For hijackers, they're given freedom to go for maximum lethality, but their weakness is supposed to be the fact that their TC pool is limited (as in, the default traitor budget of 20tcs normally doesn't allow a hijacker to get sleeping carp, a chainsaw/double-esword, and an adrenal implant all at once, whereas Contractors can feasibly afford all that gear if they complete enough contracts).

Personally, I think the problem of "Hijackers getting stronger traitor gear than they're expected to" won't be solved by making Contractor and Hijacker mutually exclusive. I've seen numerous rounds where a Hijacker got hold of some ludicrously powerful combination of expensive traitor gear just due to Surplus crates or Super-Surplus crates. If anything, I'm less concerned by the idea of Hijackers breaking their 'normal' TC budget through becoming a contractor, because at least a contractor needs to make several moves while filling up the contracts, throughout which they might get caught before they can afford whatever unstoppable gear combo they're angling for. and the crew can anticipate what's about to happen if word gets around that a Contractor has completed several contracts, rather than just a surprise Carpsaw+adrenals hijacker jumping out and butchering sec without any advance warning.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I think the problem is less specific than "Contractor+Hijack makes for miserable rounds" and is part of a larger issue, that "Hijackers allowed to go over the 20TC budget will make the round miserable."

If we want to take another step back, we could say that the "20TC budget" problem is just a small part of the even larger problem, that "People just don't like having their entire round ended by hijackers." Because let's be honest, there's plenty of low-effort methods of murdering the entire station without ever touching a TC-related item: one hijacker scientist can destroy the entirety of the station by just hiding TTV bombs or remote chemistry grenades everywhere and setting them off at once.

Since I don't think we can really cut at the root of the problem without removing some of that unpredictability and randomness that makes SS13 so appealing in the first place, I'd suggest making hijack a rarer objective overall: similar to how traitor-AIs have become so rare. That could leave the ridiculous murder sprees that I know some of the community looks forward to, but also ensure that the majority of traitor rounds don't inevitably get derailed by a hijacking attempt.

[BryanR]

6 hours ago, Machofish said:

So, disclaimer: my understanding of contractor isn't that solid. I don't know how much potential bonus TC a contractor can earn, or how much TC is awarded per successful capture. I'll operate on the premise that Spark is being literal with the "almost 40+ TC" comment, but anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong

Slight hyperbole, high risk missions average 6-8 extra TC for the potential of over 40 extra TC if you've got above average luck.

For the most part I agree with your statement that making contractor+hijacker mutually exclusive is treating a symptom of the greater problem. The issue is with hijacker but not in hijackers ending the round prematurely. After all they're allowed to kill to their heart's content. However the caveat is that it is for the direct goal of having the shuttle called. That is the issue that is the heart of the problem.

Players don't enjoy sitting in dead chat after being killed, watching the hijacker recall the shuttle, then proceed to continue with their murder spree unabated and while this is a rare issue, it is an issue none-the-less.

I personally don't like killing. I even find the assassination objectives distasteful. However I know that its part of the charm and fun of the game. Conversely, sometimes I enjoy watching someone smack others around or punch massive holes in the station.

What I don't enjoy is if it becomes a prolonged act that serves only to fuel the enjoyment of a single player over the majority. That's why instead of making Hijack rarer, or contracter+hijacker mutually exclusive, I'm currently working on getting our rules refined so that players know, while if they have hijacker and are allowed to mindlessly kill, it should be solely for the aim of hijacking the shuttle. If the shuttle is called, hijacker is the ONLY antagonist that should not be allowed to recall it, thus guaranteeing that there will be a timely end to their antics.

Some may argue "Well, killing the entire station ensures that nobody will get on the shuttle." True. My counter argument is "Each engagement of combat the hijacker engages in poses another potential risk of failing their objective."

The purpose of this game is the enjoyment of everyone. Not the few, not the single, but everyone. Not everyone will enjoy a round, this is inevitable. But when the mass majority are dissatisfied with a round then it goes beyond and needs to be looked at. I feel that the situation of the hijacker recalling the shuttle crosses the line in to this.

Preventing extra TC won't solve the problem of the hijacker going on a murder spree, nor will making hijacker rarer. If anything it'll exacerbate the problem as people will see the need to take full advantage of it when it rolls around and people who are going to go on a murderbone spree are going to regardless of the amount of TC they have.

 

[Lurapa]

Contractor is an issue, within and without Hijack.

Often you see people 'ask' to be sent to 'brazil'. 
 - 'Can I borrow you for a few moments, paid trip to brazil'.
 - 'It'll be quick, won't hurt'.

People often cooperate with the contractor. And after noticing that, it went from a 'high risk, high reward' playstyle to - 'Is my target someone who'll cooperate and has the RP for that?'

Or if I'm someone known, who can just loosely play within the 'don't aid antags unless valid rp' thing.

Contractor needs to dip from Hijack. And Contractor needs to actually be high risk.

[KillerOrcaCora]

@LurapaI actually saw someone doing this in-game and it worked like a charm. Yeah a contacty with full TC payout and hijack is kinda easy for them to cripple the station but for the contractor asking as in RP I like that better then the time where one half near killed me just to do it after he missed the stun with his baton.

[Spacemanspark]

17 hours ago, Lurapa said:

Or if I'm someone known, who can just loosely play within the 'don't aid antags unless valid rp' thing

I sure hope you aren't accusing staff of allowing specific players to break the rules, because that's not the case. You need to stop. 

[Lurapa]

10 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

I sure hope you aren't accusing staff of allowing specific players to break the rules, because that's not the case. You need to stop. 

What. 

Never mentioned Staff in that comment. It's, for me,  1) Contractor is seen as High Risk, High Reward, but often is 2) High Risk, High Reward for lesser known players, Medium Risk High Reward for more known players.

Players can conjure up any RP reason to assist Contractors/Vampires/So on. Donation is a IC thing that's been happening and is very easy to pull-off/justify. Donating blood, donating themselves to (the joke used a tonne by community) Brazil for free Vacation, donating ID/DNA sting. People can be drained 0% if they're X personality, or Y friends.

The antag-aid rule is very passable. Has nothing to do with staff or how they enforce it. The rule is just as it is and exists.

It applies to all resource antags. But that's not the point of this topic,  Contractor and Hijacker.

Don't want to derail this topic, so if you have further replies - can DM.

[Spacemanspark]

Multiple staff members didn't interpret it that way, and it comes across heavily as "If you're well known you can play outside of the rules a bit". Which isn't the case and implies favoritism from staff. Please word your statements better.