Admin Complaint: Necaladun

[Englishformula]

Admin(s) Key: Necaladun
Your ckey (Byond username): EnglishFormula
Your Discord name (if applicable): English Formula#1383

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): January 25th 2021

Nature of complaint: Feedback, Clarification Required, Misapplication of rules, Misconduct 
 

 

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): Necaladun closed an admin complaint without discussion, consideration or merit regarding a rule that was stated by a Head of Staff. 

Full description of events: This is in response to the admin complaint I posted against Drakeven, as linked above. The merit of my complaint is that is that not only was I told that wording would be looked into, but that it would be made clearer. It's been almost a month, and despite this, I don't think it matters all too much. Necaladun, this admin complaint was closed without merit and resolved, but the very rule that was broken in the first place was admitted by you to have needed changing. So what? Was the rule written wrong? Are rules that have incredibly clear and concise meaning and purpose able to be changed by a Head of Staff in order to close an admin complaint without any further public discussion at all? 

Personally, I don't really care much about the rule break it's self, it was an admin complaint that needed to be seen and heard because that's what the admin complaint system is here for, just like the appeal system is for players. I thought the rule-break would be acknowledged, but instead I and by extension many people were served a heaping dose of gas-lighting as we struggle to understand how exactly this rule should be applied in game. 

Deliberately breaking the atmospherics network in order to hamper antagonists. ( E.g: Unwrenching pipes to stop terrors/xenos/borers/ect moving around) is now officially considered a violation of rule 0.

Deliberately, to intentionally do something. Correct.

Atmospherics Network. Pipe.

Hamper. Hinder or Impede movement. Check. 

Did the entire community just read the rule wrong? Everyone has specifically not been messing with pipes for the last year since this rule was posted because of how easily understood it was. 

What's the point in having this system if every single admin complaint is filed without merit and resolved to prevent further discussion? I file this out of concern for the larger system at place, which should be a fair and impartial place, not out of frustration with you. 

Thank you for your time and consideration. 

[Spacemanspark]

Only those involved with the situation stated in a complaint should post within it, with evidence or other facts relevant to the complaint. Other posts will be hidden and/ or removed. 

@WojeHead admins will still see your post, should your opinion on the relevance of your post concern you. However, this is not a public discussion board, this is a forum of complaints for heads to look over proper evidence and logs. If everyone started tossing in their 2 cents it would cloud the focus point of the OP. You're free to send your message to a head admin in discord. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[necaladun]

Hi there, obviously I won't be ruling on this as it's against me, but I will explain my actions here and call out some of the bullshit.

Since the original complaint, I've discussed a few ways to change the rule to get it clearer to it's original intent, which is to stop people ripping up the pipe net in preparation for antags, leaving the pipe net destroyed and the antags with no way to re-enter the pipes if they accidentally leave them. I've been fairly busy then, and it slipped my mind to come back to it to actually post it. A DM to ask about that/remind me is a fairly simple endeavour. 

The incredibly clear and concise meaning some people thought the rule had was not the same clear and concise meaning other people had gotten. The "entire community" is not some monolith that agrees with you. When two different groups are both contesting what the meaning of a rule is, it's the responsibility of the headmins to try to clarify the rule and get the intent and spirit of it across much more clearly.

I don't think this is a good-faith effort to resolve anything, or that this is filed out of "out of concern for the larger system at place" when your previous sentence "every single admin complaint is filed without merit and resolved to prevent further discussion?" is an outright lie. If you were truly concerned with things being "fair and impartial" then you would tell the truth yourself, not make sensationalist yet bullshit claims. Two of the most recent 9 were found with merit, and plenty more have been over the years, with results ranging from changes in policy to the dismissal of admins. 

Further discussion is not prevented at all by resolving a complaint - many, many people have gone on to continue discussing these. You're doing it right now in fact - although this could have been done in many other ways, such as DMs, pings on the discord, etc. 

Considering this on top of your accusation of me gaslighting - a pretty serious form of psychological abuse and manipulation and a pretty nasty thing all round - I believe this is an attempt to stir shit with the admins, and is not out of concern for system. From how admins have spoken of you in the past, this seems a recurring theme with your interactions with Admins. Even your commentary on other rulings from appeals has been shitstirring, stripping all context and nuance out of what has been said. 

If you were here in good faith, then I don't see why you'd really have such issue here with how it was resolved. We've worked to clarify the rule, and explained the original intent of it. The situation was clarified and resolved. You continuing like this shows me that you're trying to get a "win" here against the admins - and you're willing to lie, concern troll, and accuse me of psychological abuse to get this win. 

I utterly accept I dropped the ball on getting that update done, with RL getting in the way and all. But the rest of this is just an attempt to concern troll from someone with a weird grudge.

[Dumbdumn5]

Hey there! As this is a complain written on a headmin I'll be handling this as another red bastard with a bit of free time.

First thing's first, I can get how the complaint getting choked out without much further discussion can feel like you've not only gotten jipped, but ignored, especially considering the promised change wasn't implemented in any kind of timely manner.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

So what? Was the rule written wrong? Are rules that have incredibly clear and concise meaning and purpose able to be changed by a Head of Staff in order to close an admin complaint without any further public discussion at all? 

That specific part of the rule was pretty unclear if you had to make that complaint at all, as the nature of the complaint on Drakeven fixated on the removal and near-immediate replacement of a single pipe rather than the scenario we specifically wrote that rule to prevent. Looking back on the context of that rule's creation, there was a new 'meta' on station to tear up just about any pipe that could've been used by terrors to access certain departments or 'critical' areas like medical, security, engine containment, plasma storage in sci, etc. It was a strategy with no counter and that currently still lacks a reasonable code change that we could settle on, so instead we decided to add it to the rules to make sure that that sort of mass pipe-removal wouldn't more or less make terror-spiders main mode of mobility, the vent system, pretty much useless.
 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

Deliberately, to intentionally do something. Correct.

The google definition is actually "consciously and intentionally; on purpose." but still, you'd be correct there.
Being pedantic about the definition doesn't help you win an argument over whether or not a rule is vague though, it looks like rule lawyering and copy-pasting definitions makes you look like a dick instead.

I can get that it sucks ass to look like the admins are skirting their own rules and getting heads to back them while fucking over players for identical shit, but if that's actually going on, that would absolutely be admin-complaint worthy, since banning or noting people for prying up a single pipe is an ass-hat move and I'd be happy to throw this text-wall at whoever decided it was a good idea to slap somebody over something that small.

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

Atmospherics Network. Pipe.

The atmos net is comprised of the entire station's pipe system, not just the single pipe in question. This was intended to be broader and specifically regard permanent and mass-sabotage of the station's pipenet in a way that would cut off air and scrubber flow to large areas of the station simultaneously, not individual pipes in isolated areas that were removed temporarily.

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

Hamper. Hinder or Impede movement. Check.

It was hindering movement, yes, but, given the original intended meaning of the words 'Atmospherics Network', hindering and impeding movement on a mass scale. It's a similar concept to our rule on antags using bombs. You can use concentrated shit to take out your target and blast them to kingdom come, but if you go after a civvie in the bar with a max-cap like a goblin and you end up taking out twenty other people alongside him, that's a little bit more force than necessary. The goal isn't to put our foot up everyone's ass for breathing wrong, it's to prevent people from making the game a slog and a generally unfun place to be. 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

Did the entire community just read the rule wrong? Everyone has specifically not been messing with pipes for the last year since this rule was posted because of how easily understood it was. 

If anything, this should say how easily misunderstood it was. The idea wasn't 'don't touch pipes ever for any reason at all' and it never was originally. If it's been treated like that by admins or players alike, I'd hope that a clarification would absolutely help to change that, all it should take is a page update, though considering it's on the advanced rules and I was never a wiki-goblin, I can poke Neca about it if this complaint isn't enough to get that changed already.

On 2/13/2021 at 7:18 AM, Englishformula said:

What's the point in having this system if every single admin complaint is filed without merit and resolved to prevent further discussion? I file this out of concern for the larger system at place, which should be a fair and impartial place, not out of frustration with you. 

The point of the system is to see if we can catch cases of admin misbehavior where they fuck around with their role and don't do shit properly or do things so egregious that they probably shouldn't have the position anymore. Everything is always based in context and due to the fact we've got policy as transparent as a block of concrete when it comes to logs, notes, and admin chat, looking at it from the player's perspective, that looks sketchy as hell and definitely gives off the vibe of 'they're hiding some shit or not playing fair'. 

The most I can offer you is my own experience in dealing with admin and player complaints in the past and seeing them dealt with, every log is downloaded from the server and combed with a notepad++ search for relevant parties, then logs around those timestamps are covered as best as possible. Most of the time people who've witnessed the thing mentioned in the complaint are asked about it including other admins online, especially if you ahelped, and after that, things are usually discussed at large among staff in general. 

In regard to your previous complaint on Drakeven, that was handled through a conversation between myself, Neca, and Kyet iirc about a month ago where we went over the severity of Drake's actions and whether or not we found any fault in them, as well as the wording in the rule. It was agreed by majority consensus that the rule wasn't clear and that the way you pitched it was a bit too over-reaching and as a result, we figured a change would be necessary so that other players didn't get slapped by admins who had the same misunderstanding as you did, not just to get Drake out of trouble and botch the complaint up as it seems you've implied.

Considering what I've said above, I personally don't believe that Neca's handling of the previous complaint was worthy of this complaint, though I'm willing to consider any points you might make and talk with you either in refutation of your argument with my own evidence or experience, in clarification of staff processes and procedures, or in agreement if you have a decent argument that gives the complaint more merit.

In the interest of open dialogue, I'll leave this complaint open for replies from you specifically. If this gets resolved and you feel like you've got more questions after the fact, my discord DMs are open at Dumbdumn5#5958 .

[Kyet]

I will be updating the text of that advanced rule at my next opportunity to do so (approx one week from today). I've asked the other heads to hold off on doing so in my absence.

While I am fine with keeping the rule exactly as is, and treating it literally, the other two heads would prefer it be changed so it clearly allows things like unwrenching the pipe for a single room if you see a ventcrawling antag in that room.

Ultimately I think the source of the issue here was a communication problem between me and the other heads. I generally take everything literally and the other heads don't. So when this rule was written I wrote it literally, and they were assuming that it wasn't that strict.

So, the rule needs to be updated, and I'll make an announcement when I've done so which explains in more detail what it does and does not cover.

 

 

[Dumbdumn5]

As it's been roughly two weeks since the last reply, filing this to resolved. If you've got more questions on this topic, please contact me on discord at Dumbdumn5#5958 as said before!