Revert changes to handcuffs and stun batons

[mrbits]

 

Hello,

 

As I understand it, the server is reviewing the way stun weapons and handcuffs work. That's fine. However, after playing a few rounds with the new system, it really does make me miss the old system.

 

I'm not going to paint a story, that would be excessive. I also don't know exactly how the code for the new system works, so I won't make any assumptions about values. Let me just list the specific instances that made me feel this way.

 

1. I managed to evade a security officer who, upon whacking me twice with his stun baton, I was able to disarm. He picked up his baton, whacked me a third time, then I disarmed him again and ran, screwdrivering the door behind me to prevent pursuit. That officer had me dead to rights, but it didn't matter.

2. Later in the same round I was shot in the chest 4 times with a taser, causing me to (finally) drop. As the officer was grabbing me to put cuffs upon my wrists, I woke up and walked away. He was out of shots for his taser and he missed with his baton, so I was free to go.

3. Me and an officer were chasing some random who was beating a victim to death with a fire extinguisher, dragging them around departures. It took both of us about 2-3 hits each to stop his rampage, during which time his victim died. I repeatedly stunned the murderer while the other officer grabbed and cuffed him. It took 2 fully-equipped officers to stop a random with a fire extinguisher. I sincerely consiered beating the random to critical and/or breaking his legs - not because I was frustrated, but because it would guarantee he'd stay down long enough to get cuffed.

4. As a security officer I acquired a banana peel early in the round. The banana peel became my go-to peacekeeping tool, because it still offered a 100% take-down.

 

I think I understand the reasoning behind these changes: On their own 1-hit stuns are strong, and being able to slap cuffs on anyone nearby can be pretty abusive. That being said, I've always felt the trade-off was the fact that both these items require you to melee your target - a dangerous proposition and sometimes not even possible (behind a table, behind a player, running faster than you, etc.)

 

TL;DR:

I feel the change to stun batons has removed one of the biggest advantages they had over ranged stun weapons, and making an officer grapple their target in order to use cuffs creates a difficult situation that is easily exploited by perps in order to escape capture.

 

[Vaargrath]

 

The stun baton is now fairly useless. Unlike before where the possibility of getting disarmed and having the snot beaten out of you was balanced with its one-hit stun it is now pointless to use. The taser on the other hand can be fired at long range, point black, and through windows. It is much safer for a security officer to use and allows them to put a lot of distance between them and their would-be robuster.

 

As an alternative to the stun baton of old, why not bring back its instant stun but make it stun the officer if he attempts to put it on his belt/suit storage/backpack while it's turned on?

 

It'll prevent officers simply closing in distance and whipping it out to insta-stun and give suspects a window of opportunity to pull distance while the officer is fumbling to turn it on.

 

[Habalabam]

Sure, the process of bringing it out and powering it on can both have a slight delay and make a distinct sound. It does, however, make very little sense that you can do a frontal disarm of a close quarters specialized weapon on a professional security officer focusing on you with the weapon at the ready.

[Regen]

Just letting you guys know that we are currently debating about this change and if we are going to revert it

[belarion]

The stun baton without the nerf is pretty much a win stick if the person you hit isn't a changeling/wizard.

[andrewmeythaler]

 

Another problem with the baton is that moving it to a pain system, A) is not how they work in real life, and B) insensitives harm-battoning to deal more pain and make them go down quicker.

 

I had one time where I was trying to take down a guy trying to kill himself. I hit him with the baton until it ran out of power. He never went down. Were he someone trying to hurt me he would have had every opportunity to do so. When I finally pulled out my taser and got him on the ground, he just got up and left before I could get cuffs on him. And then I was out of taser shots. Were he someone causing me harm I would not have hesitated to beat him unconscious with my inactive baton.

 

Fix this before being shitcurity is safer, easy, and smarter than playing security right. Because right now it is the only option.

 

[IamnotDave]

 

The stun baton without the nerf is pretty much a win stick if the person you hit isn't a changeling/wizard.

 

I thought the point of Security was that you're better off running than facing them up close, you can't just expect to run at armed guards with a crowbar and expect to win.

 

[Kute Koala]

 

While I liked the cuffs being more time consuming and realistic, when I put them on after a flash or stun, I am always cutting it extremely close even if I click as fast as I can. There would be an easy way for me to stun the shit out of the person while applying handcuffs but I have been trying very hard to avoid being shitcurity in that I only stun the exact amount of times I'd need to and when its hazy I always put the perp first over an easy arrest for me. So that's hard enough, factor in lag and the general unresponsiveness and finiky sprite clicking involved with ss13 and you have a ridiculous amount of risk when cuffing a perp alone. There was a griefer running around making bombs and I was the only officer. This change coupled with the issues described above caused him to ruin the round killing me and a few others in an explosion and none of this would have happened had it not been for this handcuff modification. I have spent enough times on both sides of sec to say that it is the greater of 2 evils and should be reverted back to the old thing.

 

And with the Batton, I think 2 swings is fine, anymore is an unrealistic expectation for an officer when he has a gun that does the same thing but at any distance. Also I've noticed with security that due to lack of access and intelligence, alot of us are no match for the criminals who add to the game (ANTAGS), so the only thing we worry about here is us being too OP at catching the derpy greytide bullshit that happens every round. I never thought sec was OP, sure it made shitcurity easier to happen but I am a legitamate officer who understands spacelaw thoroughly and do not think that I should go to the effort I do with these new changes catching every annoyance with sunglasses on. I've enjoyed the challenge but there are too many variables that can turn this thing on its head and make it something that can ruin the sec experience. It wasn't a stupid decision, there were plenty of legitimate reasons to implement it but it has been tested and decided that it is not the best outcome by me and alot of my fellow security officers.

 

[Habalabam]

Maybe the aggressive grab should be quicker to obtain on a stunned person?

[liran424]

 

To be honest I don't like the changes about the stunbatons and cuff so I suggest TWO ways dealing with it:

 

1) leave the cuffs as it is but make the stunbaton that it will stun the person between 1-3 hits. [more logical RP wise]

2) make the stunbaton stun the person between 2-4 hits but revert the change for the cuffs. [makes the takedown more difficult but easy restrainment]

 

[Sparkyninja]

 

2) make the stunbaton stun the person between 2-4 hits but revert the change for the cuffs. [makes the takedown more difficult but easy restrainment]

 

THIS.

 

[Bone White]

 

I really don't think you all are actually understanding the changes to the stun baton so let me lay out how these currently work:

 

Stun baton

Causes 60 agony/halloss (read pain) on hit.

Can miss. (requiring 2-5 swings to incapacitate someone in 99% of circumstances)

100 halloss or higher, and you are unconcious.

halloss less than 100 causes your character to experience pain symtpoms, which include blurred vision, slower movement rate (making successive hits easier) and stuttered speech.

halloss slowly regenerates over time.

Pain medication gives resistance to agony, as do certain armours.

 

Analysis

Stun baton causes unconciousness in two hits, but it will often take more than two swings to hit.

By comparison, tasers cause unconciousness in three hits.

Security officers who are arresting someone should hit them a couple of extra times after they collapse, to ensure they remain stunned long enough to be handcuffed.

 

Further Reading

There is currently a pull request to revert the handcuff changes on the github repository

https://github.com/ZomgPonies/Paradise/pull/433

 

Closing Statement

All you people requesting stun batons working in 2-4 hits aren't aware that this is already the case, and you aren't taking into account any armour/medication the suspect has.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Handcuff nerf has been reverted--handcuffs will now function as they do on Goon and TG (ie: no aggressive grab required).

 

The stun baton rework (I dunno if you could really call it a nerf or a buff, to be honest) will need to be analyzed and discussed further before any changes are made to it.