Vox balance issues.

[Djvoid225]

Currently speaking, many people within the vox community have an issue with the current balance of vox and the changes made to vox.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/122CNIkfPy2Nixuo5q7woUaYJPpd0gX4boK9FOm_pNsc/edit?usp=sharing This is a document highlighting those issues.

This discussion post is intended for discussion of balance changes, fixes and/or ideas surrounding vox balance. 

All ideas are welcome, all criticism is welcome, but please keep discussion civil.

[SabreML]

I guess I'll start with a simple one:

Quote

Alcohol intolerance. ?????????? Why does this exist???????????

Personally I'd like to see the exact opposite of this, maybe even to the level of drinking everything in the bar and barely even getting a buzz.

Vox being short is most likely the reason for them being lightweights at the moment, but they're also an ancient species of Bio-Engineered Space Raptors from space. You could even justify their livers/kidneys/organs in general being specifically resistant to the effects of alcohol. No dehydration issues or anything like that, just goes straight through.

 

Anyway, I just think it'd be pretty funny to see a 3'5" spess bird drinking a whole group of Unathi under the table.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SabreML

[SabreML]

(Somewhat off-topic from the main document, but I figured this would be the best place to post this.) (Also yes I double posted, sue me.)

 

I've compiled a (somewhat) comprehensive list of all unique features that the different species get in order to hopefully better explain what is, personally, my biggest issue with the current species balancing.

This isn't meant to be a list of all buffs or maluses, just the things that one species can do that no others can.

 

Full list: (Spoiler'd because it's big)

Spoiler

Humans:

• Nothing unique, but that's the whole point.

Tajaran:

• Auto-hiss R's.

Vulpkanin:

• Nothing unique.

Unathi:

• Auto-hiss S's and X's.
• Tail spin.

Skrell:

• Headpocket.
• Extreme Alcohol intolerance.

Diona:

• Passive healing from light sources.
• Extra damage from plant killer and goats.

Slime People:

• Slime jelly.
• Slime core.
• Less organs.
• Regrowing limbs.
• No bones.

Vox:

• Immune to organ decay. (Debatable, argued against below.)

Drask:

• Auto-hiss O's, U's, and M's.
• Heart located in the head.
• Soap eating.
• Immunity to cold temperatures.
• Healing from cooled internals.

Grey:

• Telepathy.
• Grey metacomms psionic communication.
• Wingdings/Translator.
• Sulphuric acid/Water thing.

IPC:

• Too many to list, not counting anything from here in the rest of the list.

Kidan:

• Auto-hiss Z's, V's, and S's.
• In-built light source.
• In-built mining scanner.
• Extra damage from pest spray.
• 50% hungrier.

Plasmamen:

• Auto-hiss S's.
• Enviro-suit/Combusting in air.
• No blood.
• Immune to radiation.
• Inbuilt welding goggles.
• Healing from plasma dust.

I will say that Tajaran are in need of a species rework far more than Vox, they don't even have any emotes. I can't comment on Vulpkanin since I've never played them but I personally haven't heard any Vulp mains complaining about the balancing.

Anyway, assuming that I didn't miss anything, Vox and Tajaran are tied for second to last place for the lowest number of unique species features. Despite one of them being a default species and one being a 45 Karma Point Unlock which you would expect to be on the same level as Slime People, Drask, Grey, IPCs, Kidan and Plasmamen.

On top of that, the single thing Vox do have is objectively useless. If a Vox has been dead for more than five minutes they'll need Strange Reagent in order to be revived. Strange Reagent, of course, having the effect of rotting every organ in your body when used, internal and extenal. (10% chance for every organ after being dead for 5ish minutes, 20% after 10ish minutes, etc.) 

Spoiler

var/necrosis_prob = 40 * min((20 MINUTES), max((time_dead - (1 MINUTES)), 0)) / ((20 MINUTES) - (1 MINUTES))
for(var/obj/item/organ/O in (H.bodyparts | H.internal_organs))
	// Per non-vital body part:
	// 0% chance of necrosis within 1 minute of death
	// 40% chance of necrosis after 20 minutes of death
	if(!O.vital && prob(necrosis_prob))
		// side effects may include: Organ failure
		O.necrotize(FALSE)
		if(O.status & ORGAN_DEAD)
			O.germ_level = INFECTION_LEVEL_THREE

 

To clarify, I'm not suggesting Vox buffs or Vox nerfs or anything like that. Just some sort of unique gameplay feature for the species. The only thing they have going for them is the self-imposed 'accent' and the general community. (Both of which are apparently bad things, and are unrelated to gameplay.)

To use a recent example of what I mean, silent footsteps. I won't get into that whole debate again but removing that feature also removed the only real 'Exclusive Vox feature', since the 'no decay' thing really doesn't count.

Edited March 22, 2021 by SabreML

[Kyet]

22 hours ago, SabreML said:

Personally I'd like to see the exact opposite of this, maybe even to the level of drinking everything in the bar and barely even getting a buzz.

Take our current vox population.

Now give them an excuse to drink everything in the bar.

Improvement?

[SabreML]

40 minutes ago, Kyet said:

Take our current vox population.

Now give them an excuse to drink everything in the bar.

Improvement?

Well... Yes. I think it would be.

More people drinking in the bar means more talking and roleplaying, more getting to know each other, learning people's backstories, that sort of thing. Even if they only talk to ask for another drink they'd still be interacting socially.

I also don't think that being intolerant to alcohol would make people more likely to go to the bar. If anything I think people would be less likely to turn up since they're not able to get drunk (Or at least, have to try really hard to get drunk).

Edited March 22, 2021 by SabreML
Clarification

[SteelSlayer]

I don't really play Vox, but I agree they have some issues. Specifically, the issue with their "non-decaying organs" and SR, because right now it's basically just misleading information, and creates confusion.

I've thought about fixing up SR to take their bonus into account, or perhaps having it heal all organs up to a certain point, across all species. For example, restoring 100% dead limbs back to decaying at 50% health. But, I never made the change for fear of it getting denied or having to defend against the backlash.

[necaladun]

On 3/22/2021 at 8:51 AM, Djvoid225 said:

Currently speaking, many people within the vox community

In my experience here, the "racial cliques" are a very poor source for balance, due to the bias inherent. Of all the racial cliques I've seen, the current main Vox clique is one of the most toxic, hence the sheer number of bans handed out. I don't particularly care what the self-appointed gatekeepers of the Vox think, based on how myself and the staff team have been treated by them, the lies spread, accusations of "promoting racism", and other such nonsense.

Our most recent overhaul of Vox (when spaceproof was removed) resulting in a pretty disappointing reaction from the "community". Being that I'm being told of efforts to brigade and mass-downvote PRs on the github and protest OOC while in the IC environment, I'm not really eager to enable people for acting in such bad-faith. This is further complicated by the numbers of people who see themselves as "vox mains" and thus take anything against Vox - mechanics or lore etc - personally. I'm frankly too old to care about the opinions of people who can't separate their own identity from that of a fictional race in a niche online game. I'm not a therapist.

On top of that, there's this false-solidarity, as if every member of the "vox community" agrees here. It's certainly not a monolith, based purely on the amount of people I have messaging me about their issues with said community and disagreements that they uncomfortable voicing around such toxic elements. People don't get any extra weight leant to their opinions because they've joined a discord full of banned players - quite the opposite, in fact. I'd like to assess each PR on it's own merits, rather than because of an active campaign by a vocal minority to push for it.

 

This is not to say I don't think we should be continually trying to make every race - including Vox - better for the server. 

 

Thank you very much @Djvoid225 for bringing this up in a productive manner - a forum post and google doc is actually something solid and concrete I can work with, as opposed to random sniping on PRs and on discord. I'm hoping a shared space like this for people to work on, and see what ideas come about, will lead to some productive brainstorming and ideas. This is the correct way to do things that makes us take you seriously and listen to you. Feel free to DM me for any further discussion on this. Protesting ICly in front of the bridge or mass-downvoting other PRs in protest means that we will actively stop caring about your opinion. 

I'd love to have more unique, RP oriented features for all of the races is possible, without overly affecting game balance. But you shouldn't need mechanical features to RP. How drunk you act is up to you, you don't need mechanics for that. Following the Inviolate would be a very easy way to make vox more unique than they already are on the station, but that would require people actually RPing species lore and not just being generic shitbirds.

The Organ thing @SteelSlayer mentioned could do with work for sure, it's so stupidly niche I think I've only ever had it be relevant once. I'm not at all attached to it as a mechanic.

Brute damage, etc, is used as our easiest representation of "small and not good at combat". With us looking at various upcoming changes to combat, that kind of thing would be best to leave alone for now, as any tweaks would have to be retweaked again.

Overall they could likely use some kind of buff to make up for the above malus, but by all indication Vox are a very popular race, and the priority on changing them is quite low compared to other areas. Small tweaks and additions would be best suited, rather than a complete overhaul akin to the removal of leap/spaceproof/etc.

[SabreML]

This'll probably be my last post on here (For a while anyway) since I seem to be spamming the thread, but I just wanted to clarify a couple of things from my own perspective:

Quote

Of all the racial cliques I've seen, the current main Vox clique is one of the most toxic, hence the sheer number of bans handed out. I don't particularly care what the self-appointed gatekeepers of the Vox think, based on how myself and the staff team have been treated by them, the lies spread, accusations of "promoting racism", and other such nonsense.

While I'm definitely aware of the surprising number of banned Vox players, I personally have never had a bad experience with one ingame. Maybe I got lucky, or it's a timezone thing, or maybe the bans have just removed all of the people causing problems, but having nothing but good experiences with Vox players (Chikitita, Kikeri, Kar-Ski) definitely makes me biased here.

 

Quote

Our most recent overhaul of Vox (when spaceproof was removed) resulting in a pretty disappointing reaction from the "community". Being that I'm being told of efforts to brigade and mass-downvote PRs on the github and protest OOC while in the IC environment, I'm not really eager to enable people for acting in such bad-faith.

 

...

 

...or mass-downvoting other PRs in protest

In my opinion, the actions of (presumably) now banned players from one and a half years ago shouldn't be taken as a reason to ignore the complaints of newer players, or those who stayed out of the issue.

Many people seem to believe that tweaking or buffing Vox is inherently a bad thing because "Metaclique" or "Vox bad". I'm not trying to claim that you are one of these people but as I said above I've never actually seen the clique myself, so from my point of view it does just seem a bit unfair to the remaining people that I have seen.

For the github brigading point: While attempted vote manipulation is obviously not a good thing, mass upvotes or downvotes wouldn't change anything either way since community feedback isn't taken into account when deciding the outcome of a PR.

Spoiler

Closed PR:

Merged PR:

(Edit: This last point wasn't intended to be disingenuous, it's just what I presumed was the case from my experience on the github.)

(Edit Edit: The first edit also wasn't an attempt to start something, please don't take it that way.)

Edited March 23, 2021 by SabreML
Edit Edit

[necaladun]

11 minutes ago, SabreML said:

community feedback isn't taken into account when deciding the outcome of a PR.

This is just flatly untrue, and an example of the kind of sniping I'm sick of. We take community feedback into account with all PRs. Sometimes we don't agree with it and make changes that are unpopular to 14 people who downvoted it.  I'm in this thread, right now, talking to people and taking community feedback into account, for when I vote on future PRs that result from this. 

We're not an emojiocricy on the github. If you want to influence the decision process, you'll have to talk to the people involved in a constructive fashion and with good faith - OP is an excellent example of that. PRs being merged or not will never be determined by 14 people giving a thumbs up or down, however, and claiming because of that that feedback isn't taken into account is just disingenuous. 

 

[Spacemanspark]

1 hour ago, SabreML said:

I personally have never had a bad experience with one ingame.

Yet you have the balls to tell a maintainer you're going to make an admin complaint against them because they didn't merge something related to vox. Ironic. 

If you can't tell, I'm a little more than irate with the behavior being presented as of late from this one particular race. Like, yoooo, I've seen some dumb shit from slimes, IPCs, humans, vulp, you fuckin' name it, I've torn down several cliques that were going out of their way to cause problems for other players of the community. 

But Jesus, I have never seen anything like this. We should not have people in private discords brigading in character and mass spamming PRs. Regardless of how effective it may or may not be (hint: it isn't) it's immature, breaks the already flimsy in game atmosphere and, at the end of the day, serves to only add onto the staff's collective burnout. We shouldn't have people pinging head admins demanding 'rights for vox' and then telling them they're promoting 'racism' when they get told no. I guess calling humans dust lungs or meatbags is fine, though...? 

I like vox as a race, but God damn there are days I wish we'd never taken it outside of the antag mode it was meant to be in. There are some really good roleplayers in that group... I wish they could outshine the continued problems we've seen time and again. 

Despite the maturity presented by OP, I honestly didn't even want to look at the document. I am so, so worn out by all of this... but I do appreciate his maturity and thoughtfulness. Echoing Necaladun, good on @Djvoid225for his efforts.

The rest of you? I'd recommend taking a page out of his book and consider the community around you. Not just the staff team, but the entire playerbase. 

Hey vox discord if you read the first letter of everything I said in your general chat it spells out a message 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[Djvoid225]

I have something I'd like to state in regards to the current tensions between the 'vox metaclique' and the staff of paradise station currently.

Neither of our behaviors have been acceptable, and only serve to feed one another into a circle of unending fighting. It's childish, and both sides need to stop.

The vox players feel unrepresented and try to strike out, the admins refute such ideas. This isn't a case of one is right and the other is wrong, and it's not that both sides don't have good points either. The vox need to stop whining about misrepresentation and 'racism' and the admins need to keep a sharper ear out and an open mind for just what they might actually have an issue with.

The vox players know what they don't like about current balance, and are ready to propose ideas. It's an obligation of the admins to make sure their new 'balance changes' are balanced for everyone buy the end of it (while still making changes). Work with each other and please stop arguing about events out of this thread.

Thank you all for your feedback so far, and the comments about my apparent maturity. 

I am going to kindly ask we keep all discussion, argument, or griping about the other side having opinions out of this discussion. This discussion is about suggesting and discussing change for a race. Not arguing about it's community or anything of that likeness.

Don't come here to fight people picking fights or pick a fight with vox, this is a public forum.

Don't come here to fight people picking fights or pick a fight with non-vox, this is a public forum.

If someone says something you don't like, ignore it. This isn't the place to 'duke it out' or argue with someone cause they said something you like. This is a discussion post about making balance changes.

[Gaty]

I dunno what happened here but... I would like to see more fluff and quirks put into vox so they feel different from human or any other race.

Smiles having no bones and using jelly as blood makes them feel very alien for example, perhaps something like that?

[procdrone]

Quote

I am going to kindly ask we keep all discussion, argument, or griping about the other side having opinions out of this discussion. This discussion is about suggesting and discussing change for a race. Not arguing about it's community or anything of that likeness.

im afraid balancing/reworking vox is impossible without a small riot. Regardless if you make a rework, a buff, a rework, you will always cause major amounts of unrest.

Most of the community, staff included is extremely biased one way, or another. Touch anything and the same thing happens all over again. Buffs get shot down, reworks complained on, nerfs causing riots. Unless the talking field can be unpolarised (jesus crist its so polarising. so extremely polarising. people get into it so hard its crazy. I know, i was super pro vox once myself) nothing constructive or productive can be achieved. One side will push onto the other and the discussion will just boil down. I believe the latest PR craze is just a perfect example of it happening. And in the end. EVERYONE looses. everyone is frustrated.

I just wish to appeal to everyone to think twice before they get super defensive. Sometimes criticism is helpful to grow. But also a plea to the other side. think twice if your criticism is constructive. People use "this is a buff to vox" as an argument in itself.

But with that out of the way -

----------------------------------

My personal opinion on vox balance is, that the initial rework with EMP weakness removal and space proof removal etc. was inherently poorly designed. Vox unique features and perks were removed one by one without adequate replacement or rework. They are left in a very awkward place from what they once were.

There were few ideas thrown around about reworks, but ultimately, all of it was shot down. There are two ways i would see it.

A total rework, build it from the ground up. New ideas. new perks. New maluses. Bring them closer to bird than raptor people maybe? It would also detach them from the awkward connection to "purely antag species".

Or go back to the original design. Give the fatal rework a second look.

I personally think that the EMP weakness was a very unique and interesting quirk to have. I would very much like to see it readded. Get rid of the weird no decay thing, its effectively worthless given how SR code works. Synthetic chems are quite unique but ultimately worthless mechanics wise, as synthetic chems are in a very sad and poor state - but still it makes for unique RP scenarios where your vox co-worker downs fuel or solder in bar.

In lieu of space proof being gone, maybe simply increased resistance to cold, to allow for some easier manoeuvring in cold space without a suit? (or remove the movement speed penality entirely due to temperature). They still die from vacum, but some form of "bioengineered space raptor" spirit would remain. Enough to dash out to grab the spaced colleague but not enough to evade security all round scot-free.

While "no footsteps" gone is a sad thing to see. With knowing that its not possible for it to be back, I'd support the idea of replacing the sound they make to fit the raptory claws. I seen the idea float around as well.

[Abydos]

9 hours ago, Djvoid225 said:

The vox players feel unrepresented and try to strike out, the admins refute such ideas.

 

Allow me to state one specific situations regarding this.

Whenever a PR, or some form of idea involving Vox that nerfs or touches stuff that affects them.. maintainers, the people coding it, the people supporting it, ect are bombarded by Vox players both in-game, discord and github. All purely because the PR touches Vox.

Whenever a PR buffs them, all the Vox players come out of the woodwork to support it, no matter what it is. Because it affects their race.

I play Vox... yet it's the community that makes me sick of playing Vox because they think being Vox allows them to do whatever they want, self-antag, act as if they are immune to all forms of punishment (Both IC and OOC, the amount of times I've seen "It's my nature as a Vox" or "That's how my Vox is"), aiding their "kins" when antag cause "Yaya kins helps kins", corruption (Such as refusing to arrest Vox, covering up for them, allowing them to escape or standing there and doing nothing for when a Vox antag is killing the Warden). The vox community is toxic in-game, and it's toxic out of game.

Now, you want to know why the Vox players are feeling unrepresented? Because the Vox community outright refuses to work with the staff team (Except for a very very tiny amount), hold their private complaining in their own discord and whenever a staff member in that discord attempts to tell them to bring it up to the staff or talk to the people doing the PRs.. those staff members are removed.

I was in the Vox discord, invited when I was originally a player. So I saw everything happening within that discord, from the general discussions.. to the calls of people throwing rants, demanding action and influencing other Vox players to continue where they picked up from being banned. When I became a staff member and tried to steer members of that community to go through proper channels, I find myself suddenly being banned from that discord for quote "Make people uncomfortable". If Vox players feel unrepresented, then perhaps they should stop acting like a cult of personality flocking around two members, and start actually talking to the staff.. instead of expecting banned players to speak for them as their "messiah".

2 hours ago, procdrone said:

My personal opinion on vox balance is, that the initial rework with EMP weakness removal and space proof removal etc. was inherently poorly designed. Vox unique features and perks were removed one by one without adequate replacement or rework. They are left in a very awkward place from what they once were.

The EMP weakness was removed because it was more or less the only thing that could counter a Vox who did nothing but hang out in space all round. It had unintended side-effects that even Fox disliked it.

Space proof along with other races (Such as plasma-man) was removed purely from a game view point. No race, right from the start, should be allowed to space walk with nothing effecting them / slowing them down, right from the get-go. A traitor plasma-man, vox, whatever steals the items he needs and then just sits in space the whole round. That's not engaging nor is it fun for either side..

Security side because there's only one person who can deal with em  properly, and that's the pod pilot (Could argue security hardsuits, but they are slow compared to someone without one and no slow drawback). If there's no pod pilot, or the pod pilot was taken out already.. then it's a win for the traitor automatically. Traitor side, you're sitting in space for 2 hours.. it's not engaging, it's not amusing, it's not fun. You may as well AFK on an asteroid and watch netflix if you're going to do that.

And the times a new player who rolls antag doesn't know about the space proof.. spaces the person, and they just come right back in 4 minutes screaming murder. No race should be pressure / cold resistance to/or have no draw back when in space.

There were plenty of ideas on adding to Vox when the original rework was done, but trying to make it work was another thing completely.

 

One thing I will point out from the document was the mention of Strange Reagent. SR works as intended.. there's 3 (4 if you include staff of resurrection) ways of bringing back the dead.

• You're within the time limit, manage to fix their damage and defib em.
• You clone them with the cloner. This includes removing their brain and putting them in a human/tajaran or such body.
• If neither are available, you fix the damage and pop em with SR.

SR is effectively the effects of cloning without waiting or the proper process. It will bring you back to life, but at the cost of some of your organs needing surgery. This is to counter people just making 300 pills of SR and only using SR to revive the dead.. if there was no draw back, medical wouldn't have anything to do cloning wise or surgery wise when using SR. Just because Vox's organs are considered to immune getting sick, does not mean they should be immune to SR's effects.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Abydos

[procdrone]

Quote

Space proof along with other races (Such as plasma-man) was removed purely from a game view point. No race, right from the start, should be allowed to space walk with nothing effecting them / slowing them down, right from the get-go. A traitor plasma-man, vox, whatever steals the items he needs and then just sits in space the whole round. That's not engaging nor is it fun for either side..

Security side because there's only one person who can deal with em  properly, and that's the pod pilot (Could argue security hardsuits, but they are slow compared to someone without one and no slow drawback). If there's no pod pilot, or the pod pilot was taken out already.. then it's a win for the traitor automatically. Traitor side, you're sitting in space for 2 hours.. it's not engaging, it's not amusing, it's not fun. You may as well AFK on an asteroid and watch netflix if you're going to do that.

And the times a new player who rolls antag doesn't know about the space proof.. spaces the person, and they just come right back in 4 minutes screaming murder. No race should be pressure / cold resistance to/or have no draw back when in space.

There were plenty of ideas on adding to Vox when the original rework was done, but trying to make it work was another thing completely.

I just wish to clarify - I totally agree that total space proof needed to go(as cool as it was). My suggestion about cold resistance doesn't mean total immunity - you would still get damage from vacum, and get slowed by damage. just not by cold. The suggestion explicitly says it wouldn't allow you to evade sec all round in space, and would only be really useful for short dashes into space. Or near breaches.

But alas, its a suggestion, just trying to pitch in some ideas.

[necaladun]

11 hours ago, Djvoid225 said:

I have something I'd like to state in regards to the current tensions between the 'vox metaclique' and the staff of paradise station currently.

Neither of our behaviors have been acceptable, and only serve to feed one another into a circle of unending fighting. It's childish, and both sides need to stop.

The vox players feel unrepresented and try to strike out, the admins refute such ideas. This isn't a case of one is right and the other is wrong, and it's not that both sides don't have good points either.

I utterly disagree here. You and I have discussed possible changes, you've created a shared place for discussion on it, and we're working together with numerous other players and admins to make some positive changes. Your actions and mine I see as more than acceptable. But in the case of those choosing to "strike out", it is very much a case of one being right and the other being wrong. This is not a "both sides are to blame" issue. "Vox players" are not a monolith for a start, but there is one side that is very much to blame.

Let me be absolutely clear: Threatening to disrupt the github and server is wrong. Those who support such actions, or think they are at all justified, I invite to find another server ASAP. They are not welcome here. Those already banned who continue to disrupt us, I ask to please just move on with your life and stop obsessing over a fictional race in niche video game on a niche server who has kicked you out for your behaviour. Please, just grow up. 

If there are vox players feeling unrepresented, that is because there is no "representation" for racial cliques in how we make decisions on the server. It's basically a meaningless term. Choosing to associate your personal identity with a certain fictional race of aliens does not give you say on what PRs we merge. We don't engage in politics with voting blocs when we look at PRs. We merge or close them based on the merits of the PR for our vision of the server.

If players want to feel represented, then they need to represent themselves. This is quite easy to do - send me a message. Don't expect others to do this for you or assume other people represent you. When I have the time I often enjoy discussing the merits and flaws of proposed PRs. You will be heard, you will be listened to, and I will judge how your ideas fit in with the vision the staff team has for the server. We may refute ideas that don't fit in. If you take that personally, and think that at all justifies striking out, you need to take a step back. 

In regards to the specific things mentioned here:

@procdrone - The problem I see in short-term-space-resistance, is stacking it with the other forms of achieving that can make spacewalk trivial, and I'm not a big fan of hot coffee and a heavy coat being enough for a trip through the vacuum of space.

Natural temperature preferences, ala taj and unathi, is a great minor-tweak to give flavour to a race. I'm not sure if that would really apply to Vox however, their physiology suggests a fairly temperate preference to me.

7 hours ago, Gaty said:

I would like to see more fluff and quirks put into vox so they feel different from human or any other race.

Smiles having no bones and using jelly as blood makes them feel very alien for example, perhaps something like that?

Currently Vox breath different gasses, have a vastly different culture and speech method, use cortical stacks that change their cloning/reproduction, and react differently to a substances. I'd say they're one of the more alien of all of the races, it seems to me overkill to make more changes simply for the sake of making them even more different. That doesn't mean I'm against it, but they should be fairly simple code wise - Vox already have a fair bit of code behind them compared to other species. Not as bad as IPCs, but still enough to have to account for. The maints are better for more specific examples 

 

On 3/22/2021 at 9:32 AM, SabreML said:

Anyway, I just think it'd be pretty funny to see a 3'5" spess bird drinking a whole group of Unathi under the table.

I love this image. Something special perhaps with caffeine would also seem appropriate to me, although I very much want it to be a purely RP thing. Diet in general is a great way of establishing a species lore through game mechanics. Something that breathes, eats, and drinks different substances, is undoubtably alien. 

I've talked with @SteelSlayer a bit about the organ decay thing and there's perhaps some tweaks there to make it interesting possible. It's so niche though, I generally completely forget it exists.

Also, if anyone's willing to work on armarlis things, there was a few little tweaks I'd like there...

[Gaty]

That's actually true, didnt remember all the inviolate stuff, lore and thingies like that, but gameplay wise ignoring the RP stuff for a moment, I dunno they feel like humans with internals forced on.

Dont know how to explain it cuz its probably just me but apart of the n2 tank they dont have something that makes them play different.

An example of another race (cuz I haven't played vox much) IPCs for example felt very different because you had the oil, you had the emp weakness, you have all the things with the posibrain being in the chest, being able to put your limbs back like legos, you could bring those quirks up everyshift just by reparing yourself or puking a bit of oil.

Vox on the other hand have the n2 breathing and... Not much else to show gameplay wise in my opinion, their quirks are so specific you rarely see most of them in action.

But again IPCs are a nightmare code wise so I can understand you all dont want another race being IPC 2.0 in terms of code.

The diet thing would be cool to be seen, perhaps let them eat small animals like mice, lizards and such?

Edited March 24, 2021 by Gaty

[MattTheFicus]

This might be a tad off base from the topic, as its mostly talking about mechanical ideas/issues around Vox, but I feel like out of everything a Vox has, its not their buffs/maluses that are the core part of Vox its the culture/lore/accents that they use for the most part. It might be me not giving a single flying hell about actual species traits (which is likely a minority), but the Lore and RP aspects of a race along with the general community that species has on the Station are 1000% the focus that a player should be having when deciding to play it or not.

SS13 is an RP game with a focus on community, its not an MMORPG that requires you to pick the most OPTIMAL character to dunk on antags/dunk on sec/go tide with less issues. Sure the bonuses might make you more "unique" but a few traits dont mean jack if you arent putting the effort in to immerse yourself in the Lore or Culture of a species.

[Djvoid225]

Hmm, Y'all got a lot of good ideas and points you've made through out this thread. I do have to agree the vox discord has been a bit of an echo chamber. (it's not a serious issue though as we've only had one echo chamber moment and quite a few of us realized it the second we got into it. We generally just all like to discuss vox stuff and joke about IC stuff. We aren't sitting around trying to make up the best way to play vox, and we're also working on trying to straighten out lore so we can more easily rp and put the effort in to make our characters unique on their own.)

I like the sound of either cold resistance or maybe even pressure resistance for vox to make short spacewalks viable in case of emergency (like medbay getting bombed for the fourteenth time today). A lot of complaints I am hearing from vox players is less actually how SR works or how revival works, and more so how the brute malus functions.

Simply put, I don't think me throwing a bottle at the bar and accidentally hitting a vox should give them IB and a broken chest. It doesn't really make sense IC and it's not super fun gameplay wise to have to get three separate surgeries done because your sec vox decided they wanted to stop a simple giant spider mob from killing someone and breaking shit. 

Maybe if there was a better way to include vox being small, not the type to fight, people would gripe less for sure. (I'm thinking either lessen or remove the malus all together, but adding (a) bonus(es) to balance it is fair as fair gets.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick bottom note real quick:

On 3/24/2021 at 5:39 AM, necaladun said:

Let me be absolutely clear: Threatening to disrupt the github and server is wrong. Those who support such actions, or think they are at all justified, I invite to find another server ASAP. They are not welcome here. Those already banned who continue to disrupt us, I ask to please just move on with your life and stop obsessing over a fictional race in niche video game on a niche server who has kicked you out for your behaviour. Please, just grow up. 

This was completely unbecoming of everyone initially involved with getting vox balanced, but I would like to say something in regards to it all. First off, obviously, the banding together and assailing the staff because we're unhappy is stupid. Plain and simple. But there were... three vox prs put up in the last month or so. One was a joke, not to be actually taken serious in any regard and was an inside joke between some vox and some staff who like the 'don't headpat vox' joke. One was a revert to a pr that was directly removing a boon of vox when said boon would actually be useful. The third was an attempt to change a cosmetic piece of vox for rp and style purposes. (plus it would have actually been a malus to take said cosmetic anyways.) 

Disruption of any work or server was completely outside of the intended effects. If such a thing truly did happen, as someone who was involved in one way or another, I'd like to apologize. 

[Aletmagne]

Ok so, I'm coming into this having stopped playing 2 years ago, having played a vulp/human for the majority of that time. I make a point of this only to say that I have no idea about the current "vox clique" and the events Neca has described above.

 

I understand why things like spaceproof was removed, even if I only ever used it to put a nukie cardboard cut out outside the HoS office window, I know mechanically it was too easy for antags to abuse (also at the time we had fastmos).

 

While this is primarily a RP focused game, combat is a rather large proponent of it whether its Sec v Antag or Miner v Lavaland or Crew v TSpooder/Swarmer/Xeno/Nukie. With that in mind I think the simple brute/burn modifiers are not sufficient in conveying racial differences. Put simply they come across as nerfs for the sake of it, obviously wasn't the intention but I can see how players (IPC players especially) would see it as a "Fuck your favourite race" mentality.

 

The issue with these modifiers is that being, by and large, the most common damage types by a wide margin is that certain common gameplay elements and roles become unforgiving for certain races. Some relish the challenge, while others cry foul and the "why you hate [race], maintainers?" mentality arises. It's also something that the player themselves actually can't try to overcome, only complain in Deadchat about.

 

The solution I think is introducing more mechanical differences between the races; something entirely unique to them (Ex. the Unathi tail swipe, Grey telepathy) Things that players playing those races have to consider while playing them instead of complaining about them in deadchat because its an unavoidable "nerf". Unfortunately this is only possible with some serious coding and reworking and the maintainers have a lot on their plate as is what with the remaps, refactors and bugfixes and such.

[Djvoid225]

On 4/1/2021 at 11:04 AM, Aletmagne said:

Ok so, I'm coming into this having stopped playing 2 years ago, having played a vulp/human for the majority of that time. I make a point of this only to say that I have no idea about the current "vox clique" and the events Neca has described above.

 

I understand why things like spaceproof was removed, even if I only ever used it to put a nukie cardboard cut out outside the HoS office window, I know mechanically it was too easy for antags to abuse (also at the time we had fastmos).

 

While this is primarily a RP focused game, combat is a rather large proponent of it whether its Sec v Antag or Miner v Lavaland or Crew v TSpooder/Swarmer/Xeno/Nukie. With that in mind I think the simple brute/burn modifiers are not sufficient in conveying racial differences. Put simply they come across as nerfs for the sake of it, obviously wasn't the intention but I can see how players (IPC players especially) would see it as a "Fuck your favourite race" mentality.

 

The issue with these modifiers is that being, by and large, the most common damage types by a wide margin is that certain common gameplay elements and roles become unforgiving for certain races. Some relish the challenge, while others cry foul and the "why you hate [race], maintainers?" mentality arises. It's also something that the player themselves actually can't try to overcome, only complain in Deadchat about.

 

The solution I think is introducing more mechanical differences between the races; something entirely unique to them (Ex. the Unathi tail swipe, Grey telepathy) Things that players playing those races have to consider while playing them instead of complaining about them in deadchat because its an unavoidable "nerf". Unfortunately this is only possible with some serious coding and reworking and the maintainers have a lot on their plate as is what with the remaps, refactors and bugfixes and such.

I honestly can't agree more with this, but the spaceproof removal thing is very old. I don't think people who played vox explicitly to play vox and not powergame really cared much about being space proof besides the time it's saved their lives. Personally, I don't really see a need for any race to be inherently space proof, so I gotta say I agree with that change. More uniquity in races without making it a stat game is VERY achievable, I think more thought needs to be put into stuff like that, and less on nerfing or buffing a certain race.

Having to work with a certain gameplay advantage/disadvantage would be significantly better than just 'You get hit harder, meaning you lose most fights against those without the same weaknesses.' Greys have the same issue as vox, but are cloneable so it's less of an issue when they die.

I feel vox are now at a severe disadvantage in basically anything combat related, especially with the new removal of SM. Perhaps we should start to think more on the grander scheme of things and not work towards race balance, but race uniqueness.

[Veterankyl]

I'm all for mechanical racial traits over statistical traits. Having unique abilities or disabilities make a race more interesting than a number that determines how hurt you get when hit. So I thought I'd throw out some ideas for mechanical changes that could be made to Vox. I can see at most one of these being implemented, and if none of them are desirable, hopefully they inspire some ideas.

Vox Sprint - A quick second burst of speed with a medium length cooldown. Can't be used while grabbing/pulling something.

Hardened Talons - A vox can use their talons as a sharp object for things like cutting and butchering.

Frugal - Able to craft using slightly less materials. Some recipes unaffected.

Piercing Screech - A loud screech on a long cooldown that very briefly deafens those around it. Doesn't affect those with hearing protection. (Could also cause any adjacent glass objects, excluding windows, to break)

[Carthusia]

3 hours ago, Veterankyl said:

 

Vox Sprint - A quick second burst of speed with a medium length cooldown. Can't be used while grabbing/pulling something.

Hardened Talons - A vox can use their talons as a sharp object for things like cutting and butchering.

Frugal - Able to craft using slightly less materials. Some recipes unaffected.

Piercing Screech - A loud screech on a long cooldown that very briefly deafens those around it. Doesn't affect those with hearing protection. (Could also cause any adjacent glass objects, excluding windows, to break)

Personally, id sacrifice all of those and take extra damage just to be small at round start as an option for vox who wish to take it.

 Its a pet peeve having the smallest species having a sprite thats as big, if not just a smidge larger than the average species sprite

[PPI]

When vox got introduced, they had spaceproof, and spawned with insulated gloves and no slowdown magboots, got vox leap, after a while the gloves got removed, then the boots got removed, vox leap was changed, then they became immune to being absorbed by clings, and could not be a cling, and could not really be vampires as drinking blood required removing their mask, vox leap got changed again into a throw yourself at someone, and could be cling, and eaten by cling, vox leap got removed, they could drink blood without having to remove their mask, they gained and a brain that could be damaged by emp, and then got 20% extra brute damage, before they lost spaceproof and lost emp weakness.

So vox have be heavily balanced for both good, bad, and silly.

The problem really with vox atm, is as a species they have nothing good speaking for them, they die easily are harder to fix.

and the second problem is the toxic vox clique that formed during the past couple of years.

and that second problem is what makes it hard to nerf or buff vox.

However the main problem is that vox has lost much of their identity, which is true for nearly every species

Here is what vox code looked like, 8 years ago

/datum/species/vox
	name = "Vox"
	icobase = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_vox.dmi'
	deform = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_def_vox.dmi'
	path = /mob/living/carbon/human/vox
	language = "Vox-pidgin"
	unarmed_type = /datum/unarmed_attack/claws	//I dont think it will hurt to give vox claws too.

	warning_low_pressure = 50
	hazard_low_pressure = 0

	cold_level_1 = 80
	cold_level_2 = 50
	cold_level_3 = 0

	eyes = "vox_eyes_s"

	breath_type = "nitrogen"
	poison_type = "oxygen"

	flags = NO_SCAN | IS_WHITELISTED

	flesh_color = "#808D11"

	reagent_tag = IS_VOX

Compared to what we have today

/datum/species/vox
	name = "Vox"
	name_plural = "Vox"
	icobase = 'icons/mob/human_races/vox/r_vox.dmi'
	dangerous_existence = TRUE
	language = "Vox-pidgin"
	tail = "voxtail"
	speech_sounds = list('sound/voice/shriek1.ogg')
	speech_chance = 20
	unarmed_type = /datum/unarmed_attack/claws	//I dont think it will hurt to give vox claws too.

	blurb = "The Vox are the broken remnants of a once-proud race, now reduced to little more than \
	scavenging vermin who prey on isolated stations, ships or planets to keep their own ancient arkships \
	alive. They are four to five feet tall, reptillian, beaked, tailed and quilled; human crews often \
	refer to them as 'shitbirds' for their violent and offensive nature, as well as their horrible \
	smell.<br/><br/>Most humans will never meet a Vox raider, instead learning of this insular species through \
	dealing with their traders and merchants; those that do rarely enjoy the experience."

	brute_mod = 1.2 //20% more brute damage. Fragile bird bones.

	breathid = "n2"

	eyes = "vox_eyes_s"

	species_traits = list(NO_CLONESCAN, IS_WHITELISTED, NOTRANSSTING)
	inherent_traits = list(TRAIT_NOGERMS, TRAIT_NODECAY)
	clothing_flags = HAS_UNDERWEAR | HAS_UNDERSHIRT | HAS_SOCKS //Species-fitted 'em all.
	dietflags = DIET_OMNI
	bodyflags = HAS_ICON_SKIN_TONE | HAS_TAIL | TAIL_WAGGING | TAIL_OVERLAPPED | HAS_BODY_MARKINGS | HAS_TAIL_MARKINGS

	blood_color = "#2299FC"
	flesh_color = "#808D11"
	//Default styles for created mobs.
	default_hair = "Short Vox Quills"
	has_gender = FALSE
	default_hair_colour = "#614f19" //R: 97, G: 79, B: 25
	butt_sprite = "vox"

	reagent_tag = PROCESS_ORG | PROCESS_SYN
	scream_verb = "shrieks"

So overall there isnt as much change as youd think there would be in 8 years, and most of the changes goes more into looks and whatnot, for a long time vox names were random every round.

ATM, you can't balance vox, not without rebalancing all the species, or equal them out, and as mentioned earlier, tajarans have litterally nothing, they are basically humans with tails and cat ears,  slightly more resistant to low temperatures and slight more affected by high temperatures.

tl;dr vox needs some tlc along with a couple of other species, but due to community bias, touching vox is a painfull process 

[BryanR]

Nope, nope, nope, nope nope.

I think I speak for all staff when I say we DO NOT want this discussion opened right now. I'm locking this thread and I swear to god if it gets opened elsewhere I'm throwing out forum penalties for it.

This thread is going to remain locked and any species specific balancing issues that aren't green lit by the Heads of Staff will be locked and penalties thrown out until otherwise noted. Want to discuss possible changes? Send messages to our Heads and Maints like you should do to begin with.