On the subject of Misunderstandings

[SabreML]

There's been a lot of misunderstandings in the past couple of days, and in the interest of clearing everything up I figured I would try to explain my side of things.

Also just for the record, this is not an admin complaint. I just felt it would be far easier to post it here rather than PMing a different version of the same events to everyone involved.

---

So to begin with, 'E-MonaRhg' pinged me on discord to ask for some assistance with a PR they were making. (https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/15745)

They had already completed most of the code but there were a few runtime errors and compilation issues which I helped with, as well as verifying that there wouldn't be any SQL changes needed to the server database. This was not my code being passed off as theirs, I just helped optimise it.

Spoiler

Evidence:

Spoiler

 

While the PR was open I attempted to argue in favour of it and generally tried to advocate for it being considered. Of course this didn't get anywhere, but I still felt obligated to do so. If only because I had helped to make it happen.

---

The PR was opened on Mar 21, 2021, 7:14 PM GMT, and closed on Mar 22, 2021, 7:11 PM GMT for a total time of just under 24 hours open.

In hindsight three minutes early really isn't anything to complain about, but at the time I thought that it had been open for far less than that. Maybe 14 hours or so. (I definitely should have checked, but it honestly didn't occur to me at the time.)

Spoiler

Maintainer instructions

• Do not self-merge; this refers to the practice of opening a pull request, then merging it yourself. A different maintainer must review and merge your pull request, no matter how trivial. This is to ensure quality.
  • A subset of this instruction: Do not push directly to the repository, always make a pull request.
• Wait for the CI build to complete. If it fails, the pull request may only be merged if there is a very good reason (example: fixing the CI configuration).
• Pull requests labeled as bugfixes and refactors may be merged as soon as they are reviewed.
• The shortest waiting period for -any- feature or balancing altering pull request is 24 hours, to allow other coders and the community time to discuss the proposed changes.
• If the discussion is active, or the change is controversial, the pull request is to be put on hold until a consensus is reached.
• To keep commit history easy to navigate for future contributors (e.g. Git Blame), squash merge is to be preferred to normal merge where suitable. Ensure that the squashed commit name is easy to understand and read. Modify it if needed.

Since I was under the impression that the Maintainer guidelines had possibly been broken in error, I pinged @AffectedArc07 on discord in order to check if they only applied to merging PRs or closing them too.

Evidence:

Spoiler

 

The comment that caused the misunderstanding was the last of those, specifically the 'Admin complaint' part.

In hindsight I worded it really badly, but that was genuinely not intended as a threat, insult, or anything of the sort.

---

Earlier this month I was feeling very burned out due to the consistent lack of communication between the server staff team and the general community, with the very sudden TG sprite overhaul being the tipping point.

Recognising that I was starting to sound pretty salty when talking about Admins and Maintainers I went onto #mentor-chat so that, to be honest, I could maybe vent about some of the issues that had been building up.

This decision was primarily based on this pinned message by Ansari (shown below), but I decided that it would be best not to bother them specifically with it since:

1. They're a Maintainer now and were probably busy in some way.
2. They hadn't been particularly active recently, and I assumed this was due to some sort of IRL issue they were dealing with.

Spoiler

Spoiler

At the suggestion of Meow19 I started writing up a Half-vent Half-Admin Complaint message to @Shockpoint , since I'd had prior communication with them during the Mentor application process. (Also ranting about the staff team on #mentor-chat would've been a pretty bad idea in general.)

Final message sent to Shock, censored since a lot of it honestly doesn't need to be public:

Spoiler

 

---

 

Spoiler

What I was trying (and very badly failing) to say in the first message was that I didn't want there to be any more things hanging over my head that I would end up stressing about.

I was worried that if I didn't verify that it was all within the rules, I would keep thinking about it until, inevitably, something happens which is the metaphorical 'Straw that broke the camel's back', and I end up venting about everything to Shock again.

So to summarise, what I was trying to say there was that I wanted to clear up my confusion about the matter in order to avoid any misunderstandings which might lead to disfavour or even resentment. Obviously though, this had the exact opposite effect.

---

I had assumed that I had explained my meaning well enough in the subsequent messages but apparently I was wrong, since a few hours ago I received this message from @Spacemanspark on the 'Vox balance issues' thread:

(https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/20465-vox-balance-issues/)

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

I won't try to argue for the rest of that response or Neca's one since it's pretty off topic, but please believe me when I say that I was not aware of any IC metagrudging or PR spamming that was/is going on. The point about headmins being harassed in PMs is especially stupid to do, since as Spark said it completely invalidates any actually well thought-out arguments on the subject.

---

I could keep going on with justifications, explanations and evidence but even just writing this much has honestly taken a lot out of me.

I do have issues with some of the staff team, and certainly a lot of conflicting opinions, but I would never go so far as to insult or threaten anyone. Sometimes I just have trouble with words and formatting, and whatever I was trying to convey gets lost in translation.

Honestly if there's any issues that someone has with me personally I invite them to say so. Maybe it will just be a misunderstanding like this, or maybe I'll end up apologising for something I said or did. Either way it's probably better to get it out there than to have it degrade your opinion of someone.

 

This is by far the longest thing I've ever written in any context (In one go), so please let me know if I made any mistakes, need to expand upon a point, or anything like that. I've played over 1100 hours now on Paradise and I really don't want the rest of my experience to be tainted by any of this.

Edited March 23, 2021 by SabreML
Length clarification

[AffectedArc07]

Let me give my side on these things piece by piece

2 hours ago, SabreML said:

So to begin with, 'E-MonaRhg' pinged me on discord to ask for some assistance with a PR they were making. (https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/15745)

They had already completed most of the code but there were a few runtime errors and compilation issues which I helped with, as well as verifying that there wouldn't be any SQL changes needed to the server database. This was not my code being passed off as theirs, I just helped optimise it.

 

2 hours ago, SabreML said:

While the PR was open I attempted to argue in favour of it and generally tried to advocate for it being considered. Of course this didn't get anywhere, but I still felt obligated to do so. If only because I had helped to make it happen.

I will admit this is entirely a shortcoming of my own to jump to this conclusion. I ain't in a great state at the moment (lots of IRL issues I dont want to go into) so I do apologise. 

 

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2 hours ago, SabreML said:

The PR was opened on Mar 21, 2021, 7:14 PM GMT, and closed on Mar 22, 2021, 7:11 PM GMT for a total time of just under 24 hours open.

In hindsight three minutes early really isn't anything to complain about, but at the time I thought that it had been open for far less than that. Maybe 14 hours or so. (I definitely should have checked, but it honestly didn't occur to me at the time.)

 

2 hours ago, SabreML said:

Since I was under the impression that the Maintainer guidelines had possibly been broken in error, I pinged @AffectedArc07 on discord in order to check if they only applied to merging PRs or closing them too.

 

2 hours ago, SabreML said:

The comment that caused the misunderstanding was the last of those, specifically the 'Admin complaint' part.

In hindsight I worded it really badly, but that was genuinely not intended as a threat, insult, or anything of the sort.

According to my PCs time (Which has now been adjusted), the PR had passed the 24 hour period. As well as this, I had dropped a ping in the head/maint channels, effectively saying "This PR has been open for 24 hours, already has objections, and I would rather things not turn into a major controversy pit, more than they already are.". This message got no reply, and I even pinged heads specifically to ask if they had any issues with it being closed, which none of them had issues with. 

However, I do ask this.

Quote

Just for clarification so I dont keep thinking about this until I make another admin complaint

How else am I meant to interpret this other than "I'm going to write an AC on you unless this is clarified". Of course I am going to feel threatened in this scenario, especially after closing a PR which you were very enthusiastic over. 

 

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2 hours ago, SabreML said:

Earlier this month I was feeling very burned out due to the consistent lack of communication between the server staff team and the general community, with the very sudden TG sprite overhaul being the tipping point.

Recognising that I was starting to sound pretty salty when talking about Admins and Maintainers I went onto #mentor-chat so that, to be honest, I could maybe vent about some of the issues that had been building up.

This decision was primarily based on this pinned message by Ansari (shown below), but I decided that it would be best not to bother them specifically with it since:

1. They're a Maintainer now and were probably busy in some way.
2. They hadn't been particularly active recently, and I assumed this was due to some sort of IRL issue they were dealing with.

At the time we were dealing with a major thing internally which I cannot go into details with. I myself am very busy IRL at the moment (hence the disappearance on discord and major lack of merges) due to various IRL circumstances which I would rather not go into details with. Yes I am aware communication breakdowns happen a lot, however the sprite overhaul isn't something that was badly communicated. A post was made in development news, and this had been discussed in head/maintainer channels prior. I myself did not get involved in the discussion (again due to IRL circumstances), and the fact that I don't have a major eye for sprites, I just care if something works or not.

As for the other stuff with burnout, thats completely ok. I had a major leave in 2019 taking everything with me because I needed a break and couldn't do things anymore. It is ok to take breaks, don't feel like you cant. Feel free to speak to the community managers, thats what they are here for. 

 

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2 hours ago, SabreML said:

What I was trying (and very badly failing) to say in the first message was that I didn't want there to be any more things hanging over my head that I would end up stressing about.

I was worried that if I didn't verify that it was all within the rules, I would keep thinking about it until, inevitably, something happens which is the metaphorical 'Straw that broke the camel's back', and I end up venting about everything to Shock again.

So to summarise, what I was trying to say there was that I wanted to clear up my confusion about the matter in order to avoid any misunderstandings which might lead to disfavour or even resentment. Obviously though, this had the exact opposite effect.

Again, I do not see any other way to interpret this other than "I'm going to write an AC on you unless this is clarified". Venting isn't a problem (hell I do it way too much myself). Wording things in a way that makes people worry about having complaints written about them however, is a problem, and I am still displeased.

 

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2 hours ago, SabreML said:

I won't try to argue for the rest of that response or Neca's one since it's pretty off topic, but please believe me when I say that I was not aware of any IC metagrudging or PR spamming that was/is going on. The point about headmins being harassed in PMs is especially stupid to do, since as Spark said it completely invalidates any actually well thought-out arguments on the subject.

I wont speak too much on this one since it doesn't really concern me, but when we have people preparing to brigade PRs with mass dislikes, and people preparing to make IC protests over a PR being closed, we will raise some eyebrows towards anyone involved in these conversations, which you yourself were. 

(screenshot cropped to avoid dragging other names into this for no reason)

Quote

I was not aware of any IC metagrudging or PR spamming that was/is going on.

You cannot declare being unaware of a situation when you are actively involved in its discussion. 

 

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2 hours ago, SabreML said:

I could keep going on with justifications, explanations and evidence but even just writing this much has honestly taken a lot out of me.

I do have issues with some of the staff team, and certainly a lot of conflicting opinions, but I would never go so far as to insult or threaten anyone. Sometimes I just have trouble with words and formatting, and whatever I was trying to convey gets lost in translation.

Honestly if there's any issues that someone has with me personally I invite them to say so. Maybe it will just be a misunderstanding like this, or maybe I'll end up apologising for something I said or did. Either way it's probably better to get it out there than to have it degrade your opinion of someone.

Everyone makes wording mistakes, its just important that you rectify them. If there was no initial intention of an AC regarding this, then just edit that out and be like "Sorry, didn't mean that". You clarified after the fact later, but I still believe my reaction wasn't unjustified.

Edited March 23, 2021 by AffectedArc07

[SabreML]

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

How else am I meant to interpret this other than "I'm going to write an AC on you unless this is clarified". Of course I am going to feel threatened in this scenario, especially after closing a PR which you were very enthusiastic over. 

 

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Again, I do not see any other way to interpret this other than "I'm going to write an AC on you unless this is clarified". Venting isn't a problem (hell I do it way too much myself). Wording things in a way that makes people worry about having complaints written about them however, is a problem, and I am still displeased.

 

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

...but I still believe my reaction wasn't unjustified.

I completely agree that it came across that way and that you were well within your rights to be concerned about it. The main point of this post really was to (hopefully) explain what I had meant to say, since Spark seems to have taken it at face value and other admins may have done the same. (Which again is fair enough but... yeah)

-=-=-=It's [ hr ] without any spaces=-=-=-

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

however the sprite overhaul isn't something that was badly communicated. A post was made in development news, and this had been discussed in head/maintainer channels prior.

Personally, all I had heard before the #development-news announcement was the occasional "This sprite really needs an upgrade" around once a week maybe in the #spriting channel, so the massive project to suddenly update all of the sprites came as a bit of a shock.

Spoiler

I had assumed that "This has been discussed on-again and off-again for over a year now" meant discussion on the staff channels, but I can remember thinking at the time that it felt a lot like "Well it's been discussed on the private server, so clearly everyone knows it's coming". Even just adding '...over a year now between staff members,' would have helped a lot to reduce the frustration that came from the seemingly unintentional lack of information.

Now that I've had a chance to actually consider it though, I agree that getting the majority of the game sprites up to a common baseline and then going from there is the best way forwards. Even if I do still dislike the look of some of the stuff from TG.

-=-=-=It's [ hr ] without any spaces=-=-=-

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

I wont speak too much on this one since it doesn't really concern me, but when we have people preparing to brigade PRs with mass dislikes, and people preparing to make IC protests over a PR being closed, we will raise some eyebrows towards anyone involved in these conversations, which you yourself were. 

In the example image posted for that I felt at the time that the 'Room atmosphere' (is that a thing?) was more joking/sarcastic than anything else, so I went along with it. (Hence the strikethrough on my own comment.)

This may help for some context. I've added some inconspicuous red arrows to point to the things that gave me that impression and also blurred the names for the same reason as you, with the numbers corresponding to different people:

Spoiler

(Also I'll point out that this is only about an hour after the PR was closed, so people are still a bit salty in general)

 

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

You cannot declare being unaware of a situation when you are actively involved in its discussion. 

Looking at it now I will admit that some of the other people in the conversation might have been taking it all seriously, but I still stand by my initial assumption that nobody was actually going to follow through with anything suggested. (If anyone actually did then please let me know because they are just making things worse for everyone)

 

Regarding the PR spamming thing, I still can't think of any instances of it happening. I'd appreciate another screenshot showing it or discussion of it if possible.

If that was referring to the breathing tube PR then I certainly wouldn't call it 'Spam' by any means. Of everyone who commented on the PR there's only one person in support of it who I can't verify as a fully active player on Paradise, and that may even be because this person just decided to comment of their own accord.

Edit: Looked into it and said person is actually on both discord servers, but I can at least still confirm that they're an active player on Para (Target demographic and not just a random).

Spoiler

As for the ratings on the PR, I will admit that I don't actually recognise a few of these names, and many may not actually play on the server at all. Despite that the number of likes never went above that of the dislikes, and it could even be argued that there was disingenuous voting on both sides of the argument. (Even if maybe not equal amounts (If at all))

PR Ratings:

Spoiler

Ratings on a comment explaining the lack of database changes:

Spoiler

Personally I can't see any reason for disliking this comment, since it doesn't mention the actual contents of the PR even once. And I also don't recognise the name.

-=-=-=It's [ hr ] without any spaces=-=-=-

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Everyone makes wording mistakes, its just important that you rectify them. If there was no initial intention of an AC regarding this, then just edit that out and be like "Sorry, didn't mean that". You clarified after the fact later, but I still believe my reaction wasn't unjustified.

I could say that your response had me a bit panicked, or that it never crossed my mind to edit it out, but instead I'll just say that in hindsight there's a lot of things that could have been done better, done differently, or not done at all on both sides throughout this. And to also reiterate that this isn't meant to be an admin complaint against you at all, if anything it's intended as more of an apology.

Edited March 23, 2021 by SabreML
Edit

[AffectedArc07]

32 minutes ago, SabreML said:

As for the PR spamming thing, I still can't think of any instances of it happening. I'd appreciate another screenshot showing it or discussion of it if possible.

Provided as of request

[SabreML]

Ah.

Okay that's fair enough then.

[AffectedArc07]

I have said all I need to say on this now, unless you have any further questions. 

[necaladun]

Hi there,

Thank you a heap for trying to clear up misunderstandings. These kind of things if left unattended can boil and fester, so I'm very grateful that you've made a good-faith effort to clear this up.

I understand a lack of communication can be frustrating. At no point was I aware that you were wanting more communication about specific issues - I advise sending a DM to the relevant people (Such as myself or other heads/maints) if it's in regard to a PR. It's rare we directly contact PR authors over PRs, especially minor ones. I'd like for us to have a conversation over every PR, but that would be taking time away from other areas, and we're pressed for that already. Regardless, I try to make the time to reply to the DMs of anyone who contacts me at all, whether it's about PRs, or just memes they send me. But this generally requires you message us first - we can't be expected to read every single discord channel, PR, forum thread, etc.

If you're getting to the point where our acceptance or denial of a PR is causing you to get that upset, it might be best to step back for awhile. Your vision might not always fit with the vision the heads/maints have for the codebase, but you shouldn't take that personally or get emotionally affected from it. People can disagree about how a videogame should be, that's fine and normal. Myself and Fox have been arguing for over 7 years now about how things should be. He might even forgive me for adding weaken to stun revolvers one day. For the most part, we all agree, and our work has meant we've created a server that you've gotten over 1000 hours of enjoyment out of. 

As far as being unheard goes, I'd like to remind you that a private discord group that has a history of banning admins, is not a good place to be heard. Again, if you want to be heard and have communication with the admins, it's best to speak to the admins - or make a forum post as has been done recently. 

I'd also recommend speaking as an individual, and discussing the merits of the individual PR, rather than invoking the "Vox Community" or any other ill defined blocs. Until the "Vox Community" does something to address it's "Primarlis" calling for brigading of our PRs, and the other various threats and outright insanity from it's members, then those who choose to associate with it will not be held in high esteem. This is not Anti-Vox prejudice (Which I feel it must be stated, are a fictional race in a videogame.), this is prejudice against those who seek to disrupt the server. If the "Vox community" would like to be respected by the admin staff, then they might want to look at some self-policing, because that entire discord is now being treated as the organising grounds for banned players to brigade against the server, and those who associate their own identity way too strongly with a fictional alien race. This isn't to say "i hate everyone on the discord", but anyone who speaks as part of that community will be assumed to support the actions and leaders of said community, unless they actually show some integrity and call out the toxic elements of it. 

[SabreML]

13 hours ago, necaladun said:

But this generally requires you message us first - we can't be expected to read every single discord channel, PR, forum thread, etc.

I generally try to keep away from messaging people about things I disagree with in order to avoid coming across as whiney or harassing, but something like this thread could have probably been circumvented entirely if I'd clarified via PM, or something along those lines. I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future either way.

 

---

 

I agree with everything else stated here really, though I'd still like to believe that the group who are taking this all too far are the minority. Maybe a very vocal minority, but still.

Since all of my initial concerns have been resolved by this point, I suppose I can only ask that it's passed on to Spark and anyone else who may have got the wrong impression, as I'm unsure if they're aware of this post or not.

I really don't want there to be any animosity between myself and the admin team, especially if it's over something as simple as a phrasing error.

Edited March 24, 2021 by SabreML
Wording

[Spacemanspark]

I've acknowledged the post. 

[ExGame]

As owner of the not-to-be-named server I'd like to say some things too. Sorry for the late post, but I've heard of the thread only now.

On 3/23/2021 at 11:56 PM, AffectedArc07 said:

Provided as of request

This was sarcastically said as a response to a posted picture.

Sarcasm is obviously very hard discern in a screenshot taken out of context, especially in text format. No-one took what I said seriously and later down the road I even recommended against disrupting or "boycotting" the server after someone who is not part of the Paradise community suggested that. The server also has members from a lot of different servers.

On 3/24/2021 at 3:32 AM, necaladun said:

As far as being unheard goes, I'd like to remind you that a private discord group that has a history of banning admins, is not a good place to be heard. Again, if you want to be heard and have communication with the admins, it's best to speak to the admins - or make a forum post as has been done recently. 

To this point on, only a single person is currently banned from the server. I don't like that you must specify that the person who was banned was an admin. He was not removed because he was on the staff team. He was kicked because he was largely inactive and did not get along with a lot of others members in the discord nor me. The ban came after he insulted me and the server in discord PMs.

I'll just have to say, I'm saddened whenever I hear the things that are being discussed in staff chat about members and the server itself. From what I've seen it's usually always started with a snipped screenshot being posted and then the arguments beginning. It's become a circle of people sharing information with each other from both platforms and it only breeds hostility. Most likely because it always ends in misunderstandings.

Honestly, as someone who has little time ever since he started university I never thougt I'd have to deal with matters like this. But, in the end, nothing is gonna change if screenshots ever only get sent to the parties who don't have control over the other's server, there's every only going to be fruitless arguments.

[AffectedArc07]

21 minutes ago, ExGame said:

This was sarcastically said as a response to a posted picture.

Ok but.. This was put in at 20:39

 

You posted this message at 15:44

 

Lying doesn't improve your standing here

 

27 minutes ago, ExGame said:

I even recommended against disrupting or "boycotting" the server

I find this hard to believe when you yourself are the person making meme PRs

[ExGame]

37 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Lying doesn't improve your standing here

I don't know in what way you mixed up your times but I do not lie.

42 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

I find this hard to believe when you yourself are the person making meme PRs

I hope you don't consider the single meme PR I made in jest following the joke of patting vox on heads as some kind of proof that I would enourage disrupting a server. because I don't. I don't have the will nor want to organize brigading.

[ExGame]

Accidentally uploaded the wrong second pic, forum doesn't let me edit my post so apologies for doublepost.

56 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

I find this hard to believe when you yourself are the person making meme PRs

[AffectedArc07]

Ok I would like to apologise for the mixup since these messages have different text but the same image

 

However my point with the boycotting and disruption still stands. What else do you expect us to do when you make a meme PR while banned for the express purpose of making another species "quirky" or "funny", that and this message still seems pretty serious in my eyes, especially with the "this much effort seems accepted so go ahead" 

[Abydos]

2 hours ago, ExGame said:

To this point on, only a single person is currently banned from the server. I don't like that you must specify that the person who was banned was an admin. He was not removed because he was on the staff team. He was kicked because he was largely inactive and did not get along with a lot of others members in the discord nor me. The ban came after he insulted me and the server in discord PMs.

I'll say that I am and was that person who was removed from the Discord, nor did I have any problems with anyone within that Discord. The only reason I was removed purely because

A) I was an admin
B) Most of the people within that discord, I had to personally deal with as an admin because they broke the rules.

That was literally the only reason I was removed, and you confirmed it yourself. Stating and quote "Most of it comes from the fact they don't like you based on things that happened on Paradise".

Multiple other people within that Discord hardly had anything to speak of, or with people there as half of the conversations boiled down to "Para bad, they banned me, staff bad, we should mass message Dumb to get him to go against Neca / Kyet". And yes, I will confirm at the time I was annoyed that me doing a job has me removed from a discord, banned and people attacking me on said discord because of me doing my job as an admin, enforcing the rules and refusing to turn a blind eye because I'm a Vox player.

I insulted you at the time, because the discord is nothing more as Neca puts it.. a place for two banned players to rally and act like they've done nothing wrong, constantly tell people to pick up where you lot left off with your species wars, telling people to message Dumb, telling people to downvote PRs and other things, while acting innocent. I got no time or chill to those who lie and play the victim. Especially from someone who calls me a self-insert, having a god complex because I don't run around screaming "kinies" and getting arrested every 5 minutes.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Abydos

[Esenno]

Locking this thread for now due to it deviating from the intended point of it. If the person who filed the complaint wishes to post they may ask staff to unlock it so they may but I suggest keeping it on topic. Otherwise it will stay as this until a Headmin handles it.

[necaladun]

Have talked to Sabre elsewhere, Misunderstandings appear to be cleared up and resolved.