Addendum to Medical SOP regarding suicide.

[Mitchs98]

Essentially, I am proposing some variation of this be added to medical SOP;

10. The Brig Physician is not obliged to treat any injuries prisoners sustain from self-harm. If they kill themselves, put them in a body bag, label the body bag with their name and "suicide", and deliver the body bag to medical for storage in the morgue.

Now, I know some people already basically do this anyway, myself included. But at the same time you have people complaining about it/threatening to fire doctors for it/actually firing doctors for it. When in reality it should be as much of an option as suicidal prisoners, given the majority of people that do it aren't doing it for RP reasons and are just tiders that drink themselves to death over and over/punch themselves to death/russian revolver/etc.

It's already not possible to revive suicide verb users, I believe that it should be discouraged to revive those that do it outside of the verb. Not only is it a waste of medical resources, but as stated, it just wastes medbays time on some random tider/troll that's doing it to waste others' time or for no real reason at all. Not to mention some people that do it to avoid using *suicide so they can roll for midround spawns(not commonplace at all, sure, but I'm sure it's an issue).

Personally I would suggest something like the Brig Physician's SOP, essentially DNRing those that commit suicide in any manner if it's provably suicide or obvious self harm. At the very least severely discouraging their revival.

[S34N]

This makes sense to me. Being punished for not trying to revive someone who offed themselves seems totally ludicrous from an OOC perspective.

Edited May 14, 2021 by S34N

[LiberatedWaveMan]

I mean, from a real-life standpoint most doctors would probably try to do everything they can for an attempted suicide, but this is spess game and they're already dead anyway so I mean, yeah I'd agree with this one for sure.

[robveelben]

I think it should still be in the hands of the depertment head to make that call in all honesty most of the time why brig docs get demoted is because their real head is the head of security and not the cmo. but i can understand why you would want it in their but it is in security sop somewhere allready or legal for that matter.

[procdrone]

2 hours ago, LiberatedWaveMan said:

I mean, from a real-life standpoint most doctors would probably try to do everything they can for an attempted suicide, but this is spess game and they're already dead anyway so I mean, yeah I'd agree with this one for sure.

From a real-life standpoint, people dont suicide (in a most brutal of ways, imagine brutalizing yourself to death) because they been arrested for few minutes, or because they are bored and are trying to get attention.

real life doctors help attempted suicides because we are real humans and such things happen due to tragedies, not superficial reasons. Why are you even mentioning this?

---
Im on the same page as Mitchs really, if people brutalize themselves, being forced to treat them is a waste of time, because lets be real, the greytider thats doing it, is only doing such to grief players and get attention, not anything else. In many cases its really disruptive if medical has actual issues to deal with.

And no, he is not going to stop after treatment. You either straightjacket them or keep managing their BS. (which means either healing them all the time or fighting them to keep them restrained.)

Edited May 14, 2021 by procdrone
forgot an ")"

[Carthusia]

For me, i go by spiderman rules:

Everybody gets one.

You get ONE self harm death, revolver yourself? I'll fix ya, bash yourself in medbay to death with a toolbox? I'll help ya, drink yourself into a coma? I'll fix ya. Fight an angry bear because you got some beef with it? I'll fix ya

 

If i find you did these things AGAIN, after the first time. I aint fixin ya, i got people who actually need that medicine compared to the guy who keeps (And true story) Literally eating every pill in the chemists cooler, and no matter how many times we fixed him he would do it again later, so the entire bay just decided on coms "Sooo...if he does this again, just DNR him right?"

 

Thats not to say i wont toss someone in the cloner if their already dead, since that's an easy fix and biomass is beyond easy to aquire, but i am not wasting anymore medical supplies than I have to on people who don't want to live.

 

I'm all for this being an official part of their SOP. Could have part of it be somthing like:

Doctors are expected to make a reasonable attempt to fix first instance cases of self-harm. Further cases of self-harm are at a doctors discretion on how/if they wish to treat it.

Edited May 15, 2021 by BlackDog

[Mitchs98]

3 hours ago, robveelben said:

I think it should still be in the hands of the depertment head to make that call in all honesty most of the time why brig docs get demoted is because their real head is the head of security and not the cmo. but i can understand why you would want it in their but it is in security sop somewhere allready or legal for that matter.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Security SOP for the Brig Physician is different than Medbay's SOP, and I absolutely haven't seen any brig docs demoted...basically ever, especially for DNRing suicides. Yes what I posted is already in their SOP, the thing here is for it to also be added to medical SOP in some capacity to avoid situations like Blackdog and procdrone are mentioning.

I'd prefer it to be outright disallowed, but I also understand that's unreasonable(sort of...I wouldn't consider it unreasonable per-say but I know some people try to revive everyone no matter what). But it being strongly discouraged to revive suicides is something I'd really feel would be for the better.

[Sirryan2002]

I'm in full support of this. I think this would be a good way to write it, it's very clear in its meaning. It also allows doctors to continue treatment if they so choose.

11. Doctors are not obliged to treat any injuries patients sustain from repeated self-harm.
After treating a patient the first time the patient should be immediately reffered to the therapist. 
If a patients kills themselves after recieving medical treatment for self-harm, doctors are permitted
to put them in body bag, label the body bag with their name and "suicide - DNR", and deliver the body bag to 
the morgue for storage instead of reviving them.

Additionally revising coroner procedures would probably be useful.

9. The Coroner must ensure Security-based (such as executed personnel, for instance)
and Suicide DNR Notices are respected

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Sirryan2002
added coroner thing

[Mitchs98]

14 hours ago, Sirryan2002 said:

I'm in full support of this. I think this would be a good way to write it, it's very clear in its meaning. It also allows doctors to continue treatment if they so choose.

11. Doctors are not obliged to treat any injuries patients sustain from repeated self-harm.
After treating a patient the first time the patient should be immediately reffered to the therapist. 
If a patients kills themselves after recieving medical treatment for self-harm, doctors are permitted
to put them in body bag, label the body bag with their name and "suicide - DNR", and deliver the body bag to 
the morgue for storage instead of reviving them.

Additionally revising coroner procedures would probably be useful.

9. The Coroner must ensure Security-based (such as executed personnel, for instance)
and Suicide DNR Notices are respected

 

That's actually perfectly along the lines of what I would like to see added to their SOP.  Though I'd go so far as to say doctors aren't obliged to treat self harm at all, but are allowed to and possibly even encourage to for the first offense, overall that's perfect

[WingedYordle]

Self harm and died from injuries? Put them in the grinder and serve as burgers. Solved.

[necaladun]

I personally do not like obliging doctors to have to treat people the first time. If people want to do that, it's fine, but I don't want people using SoP to force doctors to give them attention. I don't think NT would be very happy about it either.

Quote

11. Intentional self harm, including suicide, is considered a psychological problem, and a waste of NanoTrasen's resources. Patients may be treated at the lowest priority. If the self harm interferes with the crew members ability to perform their job, medbay staff may recommend a demotion. Patients who intentionally commit suicide may be labelled as such in the morgue, and no attempt needs to be made to revive them. Psychiatric treatment is recommended if possible. 

 

Nitpick the above, please.

[Mitchs98]

1 hour ago, necaladun said:

I personally do not like obliging doctors to have to treat people the first time. If people want to do that, it's fine, but I don't want people using SoP to force doctors to give them attention. I don't think NT would be very happy about it either.

 

Nitpick the above, please.

Yeah I didn't really like forcing it upon them either, but other than that it was pretty well written.

Though, I can't say I have any nitpicks for what you wrote personally. Beyond the fact of adding a DNR clause, but that's just a personal preference not really a nitpick.

[necaladun]

2 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

Beyond the fact of adding a DNR clause, but that's just a personal preference not really a nitpick.

Quote

Patients who intentionally commit suicide may be labelled as such in the morgue, and no attempt needs to be made to revive them.

Yeah thats not DNR or medical sounding enough.

 

Frankly DNR could use a bit of work overall, to cover everything suitable for it - dead antags, suicides....surely something else? 

[Mitchs98]

1 hour ago, necaladun said:

Yeah thats not DNR or medical sounding enough.

 

Frankly DNR could use a bit of work overall, to cover everything suitable for it - dead antags, suicides....surely something else? 

Hmm. Suicides, executed antags, dead antags that are KoS to begin with, uhh....mutineers, not sure what else. People field executed on Gamma perhaps?

[necaladun]

Maybe DNR in the coroner SoP, not-having-to-heal in doctor?

[Mitchs98]

3 minutes ago, necaladun said:

Maybe DNR in the coroner SoP, not-having-to-heal in doctor?

Ah you meant something like that. Yeah, definitely needs something to do with that in coroner SoP. That's one of the bigger problems with DNRing suicides now, Coroner's SOP dictates they revive everyone that's not been given a security based DNR notice. Should definitely be changed there too to include some semblance of the main MD changes.

Rather than where it specifies security based DNR notices, change it to something like.

Quote

9. The Coroner must ensure all DNR Notices (such as executed personnel or personnel that have committed suicide, for instance) are respected.

 

[necaladun]

Quote

9. The Coroner must ensure all DNR Notices (such as for legally executed personnel or personnel that have committed suicide) are clearly labelled and properly enforced by alerting security and the CMO at attempts to revive DNR corpses.

Where as for MD:
 

Quote

11. Intentional self harm, including suicide, is considered a psychological problem, and a waste of NanoTrasen's resources. Patients may be treated at the lowest priority. If the self harm interferes with the crew members ability to perform their job, medbay staff may recommend a demotion. Patients who intentionally commit suicide are to be considered DNR and the Coroner to be informed of this. Psychiatric treatment is recommended if possible and available.

 

 

[S34N]

7 hours ago, necaladun said:

11. Intentional self harm, including suicide, is considered a psychological problem, and a waste of NanoTrasen's resources. Patients may be treated at the lowest priority. If the self harm interferes with the crew members ability to perform their job, medbay staff may recommend a demotion. Patients who intentionally commit suicide are to be considered DNR and the Coroner to be informed of this. Psychiatric treatment is recommended if possible and available.

 

Nitpick the above, please.

Gladly:

is considered -> should be considered

Making it more vague here lets doctors apply it in a broader way, rather than it always being true.

 

psychological problem, and a waste -> psychological problem and a waste

I think for readability removing this comma would help the sentence flow.

 

Patients may be treated at the lowest priority. -> Injuries that are the result of self harm should be treated at the lowest priority.

I think it would help to clarify what patients this is talking about, I know it might seem obvious from context but these policies need to be idiot proof.

 

may recommend a demotion. -> may recommend a demotion to said crew member's department head.

Again, might be best to idiot proof this bit.

 

Psychiatric treatment is recommended -> Psychiatric treatment is recommended for those who self harm

More idiot proofing. It's shocking how much SoP is taken out of context.

Edited May 19, 2021 by S34N

[Mitchs98]

9 hours ago, necaladun said:

Where as for MD:
 

 

 

Perfect