Regarding Bridge Hoboing And Admin Actions Against It On 7/15/2021

[Red966]

First off, I'd like to start this post off by saying that I'm not here to start a war or cause any problems for the staff. My intention for making this post is to clarify, and hopefully get some more perspectives, on the situation that arose last night where a staff member -I believe it was Denthamos- was unhappy with a few players including myself for continuing to "Bridge Hobo" after they had edited the map to make it more difficult and apparently made a server announcement denouncing it. I play SS13 first and foremost for fun, and I try to keep other players' experience in mind when I do play. Paradise Station is my favorite server to play on, so I would just like to avoid getting in trouble for silly things.

I don't have any screenshots of the announcement unfortunately, but my understanding of the message's sentiment was that the admin found Bridge Hobos to be annoying to command players and not in line with the server's RP standard. They went on to say that they'd tried to fix the problem ICly (which I assume was the mapping actions taken without warning or context that I'm aware of, so ICly and OOCly the intention was unclear to me) This is a take I personally disagree with, as I find that often times the space in front of the bridge is used for creative and interesting opportunities for roleplay or at the very least conversation with other crew members. An example of this is one of my favorite ways to use the bridge space, which is to set up fancy tables as a stage with the piano/minimoog atop them and performing a piano recital for the hobos and command members. I've been really excited about the new maps being tested and the prospect of different stations being added to the Paradise rotation for the sole reason that they provide new and interesting opportunities for roleplay- it breaks up some of the same routines we fall into unwittingly when a player gets to know the current map like the back of their hand. Paving over the area infront of the bridge does the opposite of that, deleting whatever opportunity for RP that was there in favor of less interaction between command roles and lowly civilians. The efforts taken, including making a point to tell us that our actions would be noted on our permanent record struck me as reactionary- So I headed to the forums and discord to see if there was any warning or discussion about this that I'd missed. I couldn't find any, so I put in an ahelp ticket to clarify and I pointed by BlessedTuna to the forums for an in-depth answer. 

I chose not to post this in the admin complaints section because my intention here is better understand what's going on, and hopefully spark a discussion around the topic- and ultimately just to avoid being reprimanded on a server I enjoy playing on. I respect Denthamos and have had great IC experiences with them. So now I turn this post over to the community and staff- Is it against the rules to Bridge Hobo? Should it be? Is it really getting in the way of RP, or is it creating it? I'd be interested in any feedback. Thanks everyone~

Edited July 16, 2021 by Red966
(removed typo)

[Sonador]

I'm sure it will be clarified and I suspect it was a specific incident that drew the administration's ire given for how long they've just generally been a thing to suddenly crack down on it now would be a pretty terrible look. The CPH fore of the bridge is usually the single busiest area of the station and for civilians with no real job to perform, it's going to be one of the most appealing places to be. As a command player, it's actually quite fun to have the peanut gallery present, it provides opportunity for interesting dialogue and such - and I'm generally never one to hobo, myself.

 

I strongly suspect their were players with jobs hoboing, or they were up to something far beyond the pale of our usual millers about if someone used toggle-build-mode-self to wall off the bridge. It's not a permanent change for certain - I'm online now and the maps is as usual.

 

Insofar as command players being irritated by them... there's literally an off switch for bridge hobos right smack dab in the middle of the bridge and unlike the more annoying tidey assistants that would just hack or break their way into whatever they please, there's not a non-bwoinkable way to open blast shutters. It is literally one click to make any serious conversation on the bridge much less interceptable or interruptable.

[S34N]

Speaking as a player and mapper here, not as a staff member, but I've always been of the opinion that dorms should be the place for such RP interactions. Standing or lying on the floor outside what is essentially one of the most secure areas of the station has always seemed a bit funky to me.

Now I can't say I've ever been a bridge hobo myself for more than a few moments, but I understand the appeal of being at an "in the know" area. And, especially on box, dorms is really quite lacking as a hangout spot. I think I'm going to add "look at reworking dorms" to the list of mapping projects I have in mind.

 

I was not online at the time of this happening, so I don't have anything to say regarding the circumstances that lead to the response from staff.

 

[ItsMarmite]

I have no issue with bridge hoboing. I think its a fun peanut gallery of newer and older players pretty much talking about what's going on. Sort of like dchat, but alive in some sense.

I'm saying this as someone who plays a fair amount of command. Bridge hobos aren't a bad thing if they're just bridge hoboing.

What IS annoying is people all playing different songs on different instruments, but that's a different story.

[Red966]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply everyone!

My views mirror Sonador's here, in my opinion the blast shutters provide ample protection from outside annoyances. I think you're on to something that perhaps there were people with jobs bridge hoboing, as that could explain how it would clash with RP standards in the staff member's eyes- but that is just me speculating. That said, it does strike me that there are ideally IAAs to deal with folks not doing their job- and if they aren't present a course of action to deal with employed bridge hobos ICly would be to have the head of their department demote them. It did strike me as well that something must of happened that rubbed the admin in particular the wrong way, if that is the case then it's a shame that they chose to come down on the group of us the way they did. I view the bridge hobos to be an enjoyable part of the server's culture that I'd be sad to see go. 

That said, it does make sense to me that the dorms are perhaps more intended for civilian hang outs as S34N mentioned. Unfortunately in my own experience on the server most attempts at RP in that area fall flat, as it's an out of the way part of the station. Anecdotally I rarely see the holodeck used, and never the pool. Sometimes players will sit at the table next to cryo and chat, but I find that to be rare in my experience in favor of the bar. When I set up a boxing ring, as I often do, I've abandoned the holodeck in favor of converting the Chinese Food vendor area as it's just more high traffic and thus you get an opportunity for interaction with other players, while calling people to the holodeck makes for a lonely shift. I appreciate your perspective as a player and mapper, and I definitely support the idea of reworking the dorms! 

Thanks for your feedback folks!

[Viz]

It makes no sense for the crew to loiter in a main hallway and sit in front of the bridge. It makes no sense IC and can be very distracting. Especially since closing shutters end with them doing annoying stuff including literally breaking the windows. 

Anything people do in front of the bridge, they could do at the dorms. Which are a very lackluster thing right now, but that's a discussion for another day. There's areas for this, and they are not being utilized.

[Red966]

56 minutes ago, Woje said:

It makes no sense for the crew to loiter in a main hallway and sit in front of the bridge. It makes no sense IC and can be very distracting. Especially since closing shutters end with them doing annoying stuff including literally breaking the windows. 

Anything people do in front of the bridge, they could do at the dorms. Which are a very lackluster thing right now, but that's a discussion for another day. There's areas for this, and they are not being utilized.

Could an IC reason that they would sit in front of the bridge be that they are simply curious about what's going on with the command staff? I also listed the IC reason of providing music in the main hallway. While I don't disagree that anything that's done in front of the bridge /could/ be done in the dorms, regulating where civilians can interact OOCly doesn't sit well with me personally. It seems to me as that's a precedent that once set will likely arise in more instances where the admins will have to intervene. I have seen bridge hobos get rowdy and break windows so I won't deny that this happens, but hopefully that's what the sec team is for and as Sonador mentioned that could be bwoinkable in the exceedingly rare cases it gets out of hand. Thanks as always for your feedback!

[Sappholopod]

I have some thoughts on the dorms and why they get ignored/ways they could be improved on, but like Woje said, I don't want to derail the thread with that. Personally I don't have an issue with people loitering around Bridge (aside from the fact that they tend to give me a lot of extra work as a janitor main...) but I'm in agreement that it's really strange for it to be such a constant. Especially when the area explicitly built for casual roleplaying is largely unused.

[Esenno]

I used to be rather neutral on bridge hoboing but... It's gotten rather out of hand and after thinking more about it it just doesn't make sense from a roleplay and rules standpoint. One you're, as previously stated, standing outside of a high security area. Two oftentimes miniature bars and the like are built in a hallway that slow traffic down in that area. An area which, as many know, is frequented by security often dragging in people who are under arrest or are responding to a call for help. Very reasonably you could argue bridge hoboing is a workplace hazard as it gives criminals a potential chance to escape and has the potential to slow down security's response to trouble. 

 

Now from an admin stand point: It's pretty low roleplay behavior and far too often do I see doctors, security officers, etc bridge hoboing.

[Spacemanspark]

1 hour ago, Red966 said:

Could an IC reason that they would sit in front of the bridge be that they are simply curious about what's going on with the command staff?

You mean stuff that's well above their pay grade, none of their business and perhaps even classified? 

The bridge is, admittedly, in a VERY terrible spot on Boxstation. However... this is a mentality we've been wanting to break for quite some time. Many command players find it quite obnoxious, and while, yes, you can say "Just close the front shutters!" (a feature we specifically added to try and curb bridge hoboing) there's a few problems with that. 

A) Only the captain really has the authority to close it. This is a smaller issue, granted. 

B) If you, as captain, do decide to close them, you will be met with even worse issues. Between other command staff walking in, going "wtf" and opening them again for next to no reason (research directors do this in robotics too and it annoys the shit out of me if I'm busy), and people spam knocking/ banging/ BREAKING the windows down because their opera curtains just shut on them... it's even more of a headache. 

 

This isn't getting into some of the other issues. Part of the reason we had to crack down on meta cliques after a while was because it screws over antagonists--large groups of people congregating in maintenance or public areas often denies antagonists a remote chance of taking on their objectives or converting people. The only solutions often end up being "wait until the leave", which they often won't until its too late, or "attack and kill ALL of them at once, in public". Do any of these sound ideal to you? I don't think so. The same problems apply to bridge hoboing, a problem debatably even worse because it's in full view of command staff, a hop-skip-and-jump away from the brig, and jam packed with other people. 

There are several other places to hang around in, that aren't as public or secure, and don't cause as many problems. Some of those areas could certainly stand to be made more interesting, perhaps... and I hope that's something we look into, alongside disencouraging people from hanging around the front of the bridge. Perhaps the bridge could be moved somewhere else, with windows only looking out into space. If command wants to interact with crew, they very much have the means to do so on their own terms, and there are many situations where that is a must. 

[Pckables]

In hindsight, i'm honestly confused at WHY the bridge has a giant glass window to the public hallway in the first place?

I know it LOOKS nicer, but if it's supposed to be super secure and "above-your-paygrade", why is its default state to be highly visible in the most public part of the station?

Is there a downside to just replacing the windows with walls?
It might look a bit less pretty, but it'd both stop bridge hobo-ing and incentivize couch-potato captains to leave the bridge occasionally.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Pckables

[Coolrune206]

Don't suppose you could make the Bridge Windows a special type that allow vision but block sounds (I.E. talking)?

Would still afford Bridge their view of the Central Corridor, but would decrease the incentive for people to sit in front of bridge and eavesdrop for hours - plus, it just makes sense for the Command area with important discussions to be soundproofed.

In my general opinion, looking in on the bridge can be fine to a certain degree, but when people pull out the sofa and and lay down, or bridge hobo while they have an actual job (looking at you, Sec), it gets a bit far. When they're playing music and smacking on the windows while we're trying to do something, it's just stupid.

If you want to actually observe Command antics, observe. 

[Red966]

Alright, it seems the staff have taken a pretty solid stance on the issue of bridge hoboing and though it doesn't align with my own view I can understand the logic and reasoning behind it. Thanks for the clarification, and I'll take note of it moving forward!

Hopefully this so-far unspoken rule can be met with improvements to the dorms and other public areas like mentioned above, but that's likely for another thread. Personally I believe the server culture of bridge hoboing could be changed for the better or at least relocated with some well thought out mapping, taking into account why people choose to idle there and filling that desire in a way that better suits the intended RP. If there is ever an effort to do this I'd love to be a part of the solution! 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Red966
(removed typo)

[Red966]

1 hour ago, Spacemanspark said:

You mean stuff that's well above their pay grade, none of their business and perhaps even classified? 

 

This reads to me more like a rhetorical question to shut down my argument rather than to discuss further, but if it is a genuine question I think one could argue they have a meeting room for discussing classified information that staff often chooses not to use. Would the fault not land on someone sharing the classified information in a public place, instead of someone in a public place overhearing the information shared? Regardless I do respect your point and I certainly won't continue to bridge hobo moving forward. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Red966

[Spacemanspark]

1 minute ago, Red966 said:

Would the fault not land on someone sharing the classified information in a public place, instead of someone in a public place overhearing the information shared? 

The bridge is not a public area. Again... it has terrible positioning, but it is by no means public. The bridge is also not a soap opera, and most times heads don't have the time to run into the conference room for full on meetings--as much as I would love for that room to be used more often.

[Spacemanspark]

24 minutes ago, Pckables said:

Is there a downside to just replacing the windows with walls?
It might look a bit less pretty, but it'd both stop bridge hobo-ing and incentivize couch-potato captains to leave the bridge occasionally.

I am by no means opposed to this solution, however.

[Red966]

1 hour ago, Spacemanspark said:

The bridge is not a public area. Again... it has terrible positioning, but it is by no means public. The bridge is also not a soap opera, and most times heads don't have the time to run into the conference room for full on meetings--as much as I would love for that room to be used more often.

Well we can at least agree on the points that it would be nice to see the conference room used more often and that the bridge could likely have a better position. Thanks for taking the time to clarify the staff's stance on the issue for me today. I'm excited about the prospect of future map changes! Hopefully we can find a solution that offers a less out of the way area for people to mingle and idle for the folks that do still spend their shift as a bridge hobo. I'm unsure of the space law, but another idea to help combat the issue ICly rather than admin intervention in the future could be making loitering a minor offence in certain circumstances. It's not something I've looked into or fleshed out so my apologies if this already exists in some regard, just brainstorming ways we can deal with this. Maybe a reboot of the restaurant/Chinese food vendor area could be helpful in addition to changing the bridge windows to walls, to give people a more enticing place to sit that isn't just in the hallway. I've seen great results when people turn it into a smoking lounge!

Edited July 16, 2021 by Red966
(Added another idea to the post)

[Sonador]

Is there any way to implement one-way windows in the code? Something tells me not. That would be the best option. Another easy solution is to move the shutters to the top of the z-level so the windows are shielded when closed.

Tiders that break the windows because they're mad bridge closed it should be bwoinked for self-antagging, that's a spaced section and sabotaging because tide is not okay. 

[SabreML]

One thing I will point out is that I've seen quite a few admins and staff members bridgewatch/bridgehobo themselves, presumably because it's a relatively safe spot to admin-ghost from.

I'm not able to say if that's a good thing or a bad thing because I honestly never payed much attention to the whole issue, but maybe a more unified response or standard would improve it.
Ingame announcements can only apply for a few hours before the players who saw them are replaced by new ones who didn't, so for many of them it's possible that if they see an admin lying above the bridge talking to people, they could take it as permission or even encouragement for them to do the same. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by SabreML
Spacing

[AffectedArc07]

33 minutes ago, SabreML said:

One thing I will point out is that I've seen quite a few admins and staff members bridgewatch/bridgehobo themselves, presumably because it's a relatively safe spot to admin-ghost from.

This is largely true, especially in my case. I cant speak in regards to the others, but the bridge is a safe spot to aghost from, or as a "tab out to fix production crying" spot it works well.

 

34 minutes ago, SabreML said:

Ingame announcements can only apply for a few hours before the players who saw them are replaced by new ones who didn't, so for many of them it's possible that if they see an admin lying above the bridge talking to people, they could take it as permission or even encouragement for them to do the same. 

This entire situation occurred inside one round as far as I know, though I was not there so I cant speak on it fully. 

[S34N]

3 hours ago, Red966 said:

Personally I believe the server culture of bridge hoboing could be changed for the better or at least relocated with some well thought out mapping, taking into account why people choose to idle there and filling that desire in a way that better suits the intended RP. If there is ever an effort to do this I'd love to be a part of the solution! 

Do you have a discord tag you are willing to share with me? This sort of project is one I definitely intend to undertake in the near future, and feedback + insight will go a long way to making it work.

[Esenno]

2 hours ago, SabreML said:

presumably because it's a relatively safe spot to admin-ghost from.

I mean yeah. You try finding a good place to ditch your own body where security is almost bound to frequent that isn't there.

[Red966]

2 hours ago, S34N said:

Do you have a discord tag you are willing to share with me? This sort of project is one I definitely intend to undertake in the near future, and feedback + insight will go a long way to making it work.

This is great to hear! I don't have any knowledge in the way of coding to offer the project unfortunately, but I'd love to contribute in any ways I can. Perhaps it could be useful to set up a simple poll to get feedback from the community about why they bridge hobo to give us an idea of where to start, or a new thread asking for ideas for dorm improvements. I'm Red966#7385 in the Discord! 

[destinycall]

To add my two-cents as a random player, I don't mind the bridge hobos, but I do agree that they lack in-game context and don't make sense.  

 

They loiter at that location because it is a good spot to idle - central location, fun eavesdropping opportunities, close to the action without being in the way.  It is safe without being too boring or out of the way.

 

The dorms are a horrible spot for idle socializing.  Ugly, messy, boring.

 

The bar is better, but different.  More active in some ways, but farther away from anything important.    Also a little more dangerous - fighting is more common and explosions are not unheard of.    

 

The holodeck, arcade, and pool area are not too bad, but hardly anyone goes there, except space tourists.    

 

Chapel and Library might work.   They are usually staffed and the staff are usually interested in RP.   But they are both pretty far out of the way.   Most visitors are just passing through on their way to do something in the Maintenence tunnels.

 

Departures is another potential hang-out spot, but to gather people there, someone typical needs to take the initiative and start building.    It is a fun pop-up location for creative players.   It would be nice if there were a few other spots like this, actually.  It would give citizens more productive outlets, so they have less reason to idle and more opportunity to build cool stories.

 

In contrast, Arrivals is really out of the way and largely ignored.    There is just nothing to draw tourists to the left side of the station.  No important departments are located over there and almost no one has a reason to go back there after they arrive on the station for the first time.  

 

The community garden area is pretty fun and useful for learning the basics of plant care, but not a good spot to relax and idle.   If there was an actual green space near the garden with grass and flowers/trees, that would be a nice place to socialize and idle in a faux natural setting.

 

....

 

Anyways, regarding how to deal with the immediate problem, replacing the Bridge's glass windows with reinforced walls would be the simplest option.  Also the least fun.

 

It would "solve" the issue for the bridge staff by taking away all interaction, but it doesn't allow any freedom to engage with the station or talk to the crew through the glass when you want.   It is too harsh, imo.

 

Another simple change that might do the trick would be to change the shutters to be in the *closed* position on round start.   The command staff can choose to raise them, if they wish to see and interact, but by default, the bridge would be closed to viewing.    I would also make sure that all heads of staff can open/shut these shutters, so if they are talking about something sensitive when Cap is not on the bridge, they can shutter it.

 

And another idea - the shutters could be tied to alert level.   They will automatically shut when station goes on red alert.  This works both to protect the bridge, remind people that things are getting serious, and helps the command team focus on more important matters than bridge hobo antics.  Since it is an automated action, related to station security, the hobos should not have any reason to riot over being left out and the bridge crew can't forget to close the shutter in a crisis.   It works for both IC and OOC concerns.

Another option would involve redesigning the station to encourage people to idle elsewhere OR make the area in front of the bridge into an acceptable location for idle socializing.

For example, if it was possible to swap the community garden/tool storage rooms with the library/chapel, that might encourage people to hang out on the left side of the station more often.    The dorms would be right across from two good socializing areas.   Or move tool storage and add a "park" next to the garden.

 

Alternatively, the area in front to the bridge could be redesigned into a lounge with couches and the hallway could be routed up and over that zone.   Idlers would have tables, chairs or couches to sit on.   And a nice view into the bridge wgile they hung out and watched the world run by.   They would make sense and not be in the way.

 

 There are many options to solve this issue.   Personally, I would prefer a creative solution that adds to the station, instead of just taking away something that many people enjoy doing.

 

EDIT -  Looking at a map, I just realized that I was thinking of the clothing storage/locker room when people were saying dorms.   Never realized the area around the pool was called dormitories.    I thought of it more as a common room or public space, while dorms make me think of beds.   Sorry, I am an idiot.   Dorms are not ugly!  They look nice.   If I would change anything, it would be to rearrange the chapel/library to be part of the dorms or directly accessible from the dorms.   

Perhaps a real hallway that runs from under the holodeck and down between botany and library so that the dormitories are no longer a dead-end and you can travel more than one way to reach your destination (without venturing into Maintenence tunnels.  

Edited July 17, 2021 by destinycall

[Sappholopod]

Initially I didn't say much to avoid going off-topic, but since it seems like a lot of people are nodding towards the idea of a map change to fix things, I might as well chip in as well.

27 minutes ago, destinycall said:

To add my two-cents as a random player, I don't mind the bridge hobos, but I do agree that they lack in-game context and don't make sense.  

[et cetera]

First off, huge agreement with basically everything said here. This more or less summarizes my thoughts on not only Dorms but other roleplay-oriented areas.

As for my own input and thoughts as to how things could be improved, they're pretty rambly, so I'll put them behind a spoiler just to spare people from scrolling past a word wall.

Spoiler

To help emphasize the point, I tossed together a rough "heat map" of the usual traffic flow through Box's public/semi-public areas. It's fairly subjective and not based on any hard statistical evidence, but as someone who spends most of my shifts either observing the round or walking around the station as a janitor I think it's reasonably well-informed:

The color code here doesn't exactly correspond to how much traffic an area sees, but what qualities it has to encourage traffic. The red zones are completely out of the way, they offer nothing of mechanical interest, and they aren't useful passageways except for maybe one or two players; they're good for antags, bad for players gathering. On the other hand, the blue zones are vital, as they include the shortest/safest pathways between different areas and access to medical care and food. However, these zones tend to discourage loitering because of how narrow and busy they are; if you can't hang out somewhere without being in someone's way every five minutes you're probably going to look for somewhere else. That's where yellow zones come in - places that have enough privacy to avoid feeling "exposed" but enough uniqueness to make people want to linger. The bar is such a popular hangout space primarily because it's the biggest "yellow zone" immediately accessible from the busiest part of the station.

So the first question here is: If the hallways discourage loitering, why are crowds at Bridge so common? The windows into Command are probably relevant, but I think it also has to do with the shape of the hall itself. I've noticed that, whenever people do mess around and set up projects in the Service hall, it generally happens either in front of the kitchen or outside the library - the two places where that hall opens up into "mini-rooms" that negate the otherwise cramped feeling. The area directly above Bridge opens up from a 3-wide hall into a 4-wide; it splits in three directions instead of two, making it feel more spacious; and one wall is lined with windows into a very spacious room. Structurally, it's practically asking to be treated as a lounge rather than a hall, and I don't think Command being there is at all the biggest factor involved. Make this area a bit more visually constricted and I bet a lot fewer people would choose to lounge here.

The second question, then, is: Why are Dorms so unpopular? The simple answer is "they're boring", but how can they be boring when they're connected to multiple rooms designed for roleplay and to the blue zone that brings in so much traffic? The problem is two-fold: First, you have to go through the boring part of Dorms to get to the fun parts, and there are no jobs there (Clown/Mime don't count since they're always elsewhere and Barber doesn't count because... Barber) to provide natural roleplay encounters. Second, Dorms is barely visible - if you pass by Bar in the hallway it has windows to show what's going on inside, and most of it is visible without even entering; all you see of Dorms when passing by is a doorway leading into a side hall, with Mr. Chang's and Cryodorms inside. On rare occasion I'll see people take over Mr. Chang's and use it as a more active restaurant space, but when this happens it seems like they often point it out into the hallway because it makes drawing in other players so much easier.

I don't think there's any one simple trick that could make people stop gathering around Bridge and convince people to start utilizing Dorms (at least, not one that would feel satisfactory to a lot of people). A lot of small redesigns in combination might do it, but personally (and I say this knowing that massive map changes tend to take a lot of time and effort to get done), my suggestion is to swap Dorms and Bridge outright. Squish Command in-between Security and Service, have Bridge physically tucked away from civilians, and put Dorms right in the heart of the station and surrounded by windows so that everyone will pass by and see all the free lounging space waiting for them. Maybe an extreme solution, definitely one that would require balance consideration, but if that wouldn't make Dorms more popular I'm not sure what would.

To summarize: I think it's less about Dorms being boring and more about the station's layout discouraging people from visiting. If Dorms were more central and Bridge more isolated it would likely make a huge difference.