Misjudment of ERT Response early on in Cult Round.

[Boidca]

Admin Key: NORWEST

Your Ckey: Boidca

Discord Name: Boidca

Date of incident: 19.07.21 - 22:35 GMT (Cultist round)

Nature of Complaint: Misuse of power, judgement.

 

Brief Description: Paranormal ERT was called on the cult when they only had 5 members, no converts, few runes and no cult gear approx 25 minutes into the round.

 

Full Description: Due to an SM delamination early in the shift, and cult runes found in maints during the round, an ERT was called which included 2 Paranormal ERT with prayer beads. The cult at the time held no cult items, had no organised base and included only the round-start cultists. While the cultists were caught early by sec, the use of prayer beads for instant deculting denied any efforts to recover the cultists, as it being so soon into the round, the likelihood of sec being prepared to decult crew allowed a chance for summoning, rescue attempts and the like to take place. The inclusion of paranormal ERT created an imbalance of power for the cult, as they had no means (no tasers, no stunbatons) to combat cult-immune ERT so early on.

The original 5 cultists had to face a disproportionate threat level when conducting their antagging, that they were effectively prevented from the usual ‘meta’ of early cult rounds, slowly converting their colleagues, hiding in maints with small, hidden conversion rooms.

Further to this, as soon as all the round start cultists were caught and de-culted within 10 minutes of the ERT showing up, more were created by admin command to make up for the speed in which the cult fell, direct from admin intervention of the paranormal ERT. This is an attempt to recover the round from the error made by summoning the ERT so soon, but the original cultists were swept over with such speed, their gameplay and fun was denied, then more crew were given the opportunity to antag and those original 5 had been left behind.

The Paranormal ERT was recalled and extra cultists added in, with the original cult now effectively out of the round. 

Yes the opportunity to be re-culted was available, but the metaknowledge that others would press upon them for being re-culted under the circumstances forced many of those original cultists to cyro, myself being one of them.

I feel that the choice to respond with such overkill to a cult within 25 minutes shows a lack of clarity and understanding of the power level of the cult at the time. The balance of ERT was poorly made and it calls into question the ability to judge the current strength and proportional response to the station threat. ERT responses aren’t supposed to sweep over the cultists inside 10 minutes, and the choice to randomly allocate more after the fact demonstrates that They knew the choice was made in error, but no attempt to reconcile with the original cult players was made.

[Norwest]

As warning was given early (" DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (174,107,2): As a note, can you submit admin complaints about a round still taking place?" - "Complaint submitted" in Discord; link https://discordapp.com/channels/145533722026967040/565872046312259594/866812293979439104), I'll be responding early to this one. Boidca's progression in-game is as follows:

1. He was one of the starting cultists, and was caught early on. I should note, for the record, that he was caught by a regular Seccie rather than by the ERT: "[2021-07-19T21:24:58] ATTACK: Mitchs98/(Goobina)(129,146,2) against Boidca/(Jadon Carter)(ANTAG)(130,146,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/disabler" He ended up having a bit of a Freudian slip shortly afterwards ("[2021-07-19T21:24:58] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (130,146,2):  'We fucked that up'"), and cryo'd immediately after deconversion. Note: the ERT was not active on-station at this time.

2. Boidca was a tad salty in dchat, to a degree I think is worth mentioning:

 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (118,154,2): Who the fuck
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (118,154,2): Do I need to salt at
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (118,154,2): For sending paranormal ert
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (118,154,2): for FOUR CULTISTS 20 MINS IN
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (118,148,2): Who the fuck thought that was a grand idea?
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (114,110,2): What in the flying fuck justified looking at the ammound of cultists, and sending two paranormal ert with instant deconverts?
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (112,139,2): What an utter shitshow.
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (120,141,2): Fucking bullll shit
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,140,2): Literally why
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,139,2): I cyro'd out of rage, because how can a cultist expect two paranormal ert to rock up 30 mins in?
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,141,2): It's quite bullshit.
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (182,117,2): And you just... fucking randomly add more cult??
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (178,117,2): Jesus christ
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (180,116,2): That's fine, but making more cult is just admitting the fuckup
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (155,128,2): Which it is.
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,140,2): I'm ticked off
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,140,2): I've said my bit, utter cock up and very unfun.
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (113,140,2): Admins decided a grand total of 5 cultists 25 mins in needed 2 paranormal ert
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (70,104,2): It's as if the original 5 cultists were told to do one and all these new guys get to play the round
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (71,104,2): But like you said, too much salt- log off.
 DEADCHAT: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (174,107,2): As a note, can you submit admin complaints about a round still taking place?
 

There's more, but I figure that's enough already. I should note for future reference that no action was taken against Boidca for the above statements; there are no PMs between us during this time period or immediately afterwards, whether in-game or via Discord. My own in-game responses to the above were as follows:

[2021-07-19T21:22:28] DEADCHAT: Norwest/(Joseph Baker) (158,46,2): Well, the ERT request included both the cult and the engineering mess, and frankly, having 'battle chaplains' /does/ get players into the round quicker, by removing the amount of people stuck waiting around in Processing for holy water.
[2021-07-19T21:36:09] DEADCHAT: Norwest/(Master Sergeant Hawking) (113,94,2): OK. You're welcome to log off anytime, then." [[in response to the "too much salt- log off" comment.]]

 

 

 

The Paranormal ERT were included in the call since several cultists were in Processing being stuffed full of holy water. My reasoning was repeatedly stated in deadchat (see above, along with this comment made after S34N had started to apologize for the ERT call: [2021-07-19T21:38:57] DEADCHAT: Norwest/(Master Sergeant Hawking) (113,92,2): It's not their [[other admins']] mistake, either. I added the paranormal ERT to the mix; there's no need for any other 'mins to take the heat for it. I've heard /constant/ dchat salt about how ERTs are "too slow, too late, never enough" - so yeah, when I got an ERT request for an active cult /and/ a busted engine, I added two paranormal ERT to the mix. Their job was to grab rosary beads, and keep cultists from being stuck in Processing forever.").

Regarding the veracity of the complaint itself, I will stand by my initial reasoning: "[2021-07-19T21:39:43] DEADCHAT: Norwest/(Master Sergeant Hawking) (113,92,2): I don't strongly regret it, either. The cult was not sunk by the ERT; that's just after-the-fact whining." "[2021-07-19T21:41:31] DEADCHAT: Norwest/(Master Sergeant Hawking) (97,92,2): I'd have added the extra cultists anyway, because you guys were turning into cultstended." I added two Paranormal ERT members to ensure that at least one would focus on deconversions, and end up accomplishing the reason they were summoned. I added four more cultists at the same time, yes, but that's because the initial ones were all caught and being deconverted without the ERT's help. It was effectively a second chance for a cult that was dying out; the ERT was to help smooth the process over, so that win or lose, there wouldn't be an un-fun pileup in the Brig of brain-damaged cultists hoping that the Warden would be on the ball enough to notice when they were deconverted. As the cult ended up winning the round through a successful summons, I do not believe that the two Paranormal ERT members were extremely crippling to their efforts.

 

Regarding others' opinions on the complaint, I'll quote the relevant post-round Discord talking:

-S34N: Sec caught both of you without any help from the ERT, hell you'd bolted that officer in and they still got both of you

-S34N: Yes, the paranormal ERT was a mistake IMO, but it ended up having a negligible impact on the round.

-BubbleGrug: Yes the ERT wasnt necessary. But, it didnt matter

-Boidca: Because it's a misjudgement of the effective strength of the cult.

There's more, but it largely follows the same pattern of discussion.

 

 

I'll ping @necaladun for his final judgment on the subject, but frankly, I don't believe that the ERT are the root cause of this complaint. I certainly could have communicated my reasoning more clearly, such as specifying to the Paranormal ERT that I wanted them focusing on deconversion in the Brig itself, but I don't believe any of this is an issue so objectively terrible that it needed its own thread. Boidca, I believe the real issue is your own internal coping mechanisms for handling anger. I think the fundamental problem here is that you're angry you 'lost' so early into the round, and are using the ERT as a useful tool to redirect that anger outwards.

I would recommend you re-consider your own anger coping mechanisms, including replacing this sort of harmful redirection with harmless restructuring (such as 'burning off' anger through exercise or playing a singleplayer game, rather than directing it at other humans). Other alternatives include the use of humor, personal cognitive restructuring ("talking it out in your own head," basically), trying for more helpful communication early-on rather than the sort of "Who the fuck do I need to salt at" statements made above, and so on. If you wish to submit constructive criticism regarding how you'd like the situation to be handled and/or communicated to the crew in the future, I'm willing to listen. However, I would ask that you first take some time - a day or two, let's say - and wait until that initial surge of emotion has burned itself off before replying.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Norwest

[Abydos]

Info for the headmins and as a timeline of events;

Server started 20:52

[2021-07-19T20:52:51] Starting up. Round ID is 27783

Round started 20:58

[2021-07-19T20:58:06] DEBUG: Manifest creation took 1.3s

Engine started delamming around 21:06

[2021-07-19T21:06:03] SAY: B.U.T.L.E.R. (143,23,2): Please note that the engine is delaminating.

Cult got spotted at 21:12.

[2021-07-19T21:12:30] SAY: Y.U.C.K.U.S. (153,180,2): (headset) 'CULT'

[2021-07-19T21:12:37] SAY: Andra Haltheart (121,112,2): (headset) 'Where?'

Red Alert triggered at 21:17

[2021-07-19T21:17:10] GAME: Richard Wallace triggered and Thorium confirmed event Red Alert

Engine exploded at 21:18

[2021-07-19T21:18:07] GAME: Explosion with size (17.5, 37, 39, 0) in area Supermatter Engine  (113,65,2) 

ERT request sent at 21:20

[2021-07-19T21:20:34] GAME: Dayana triggered and Feasel Easel confirmed event Emergency Response Team

ERT accepted at 21:21

[2021-07-19T21:21:28] ADMIN: Norwest dispatched a Red ERT. Slots: commander: 1, engineering: 3 and paranormal: 2

Command announcement as they called the ERT at 21:22

[2021-07-19T21:22:40] GAME: Dayana has made Priority Announcement: Priority Announcement - So. Engine failed. HoS died. We are getting an ERT. There is a cult. - Dayana (Captain)

ERT arrive at the station at 21:24

[2021-07-19T21:24:25] SAY: Sergeant Major Wood (21,79,1):  'Bridge first.'

[2021-07-19T21:24:29] SAY: Sergeant Major Wood (37,127,2):  'I want to speak to the CE.'

All cult members got arrested by Security;

Ryker Pierce

Security aware of him at 21:19

[2021-07-19T21:19:37] SAY: Ivan Leech (152,178,2): (Security) 'rune touched by Ryker Pierce'

Status set at 21:20

[2021-07-19T21:20:04] ADMIN: Rurik Varlim set secstatus of  Ryker Pierce to *Arrest*, comment: Cult

Arrested 21:29

[2021-07-19T21:29:00] ATTACK: Valeria Reichard (141,176,2) against Ryker Pierce (ANTAG)(142,174,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/energy/electrode

[2021-07-19T21:29:07] ATTACK: Valeria Reichard (142,175,2) against Ryker Pierce (ANTAG)(142,174,2): Handcuffed (the zipties)

Malo

Tried to kidnap a Security Officer at 21:24

[2021-07-19T21:24:18] ATTACK: Malo (ANTAG)(130,146,2) against Goobina (131,146,2): used a cult spell (Stunning Aura) on

Officer turned the tables and arrested him at 21:24

[2021-07-19T21:24:32] ATTACK: Goobina (128,146,2) against Malo (ANTAG)(129,146,2): Attacked with stunbaton (HARM) (BRUTE)

[2021-07-19T21:24:37] ATTACK: Goobina (128,146,2) against Malo (ANTAG)(129,146,2): stunned

[2021-07-19T21:24:46] ATTACK: Goobina (129,146,2) against Malo (ANTAG)(129,146,2): stunned

[2021-07-19T21:24:54] ATTACK: Goobina (129,146,2) against Malo (ANTAG)(129,146,2): Handcuffed (the handcuffs)

Jadon Carter

Tried to aid Malo and failed at 21:24

[2021-07-19T21:24:34] ATTACK: Goobina (129,146,2) against Jadon Carter (ANTAG)(130,146,2): Attacked with stunbaton (HARM) (BRUTE)

[2021-07-19T21:24:38] ATTACK: Goobina (129,146,2) against Jadon Carter (ANTAG)(130,146,2): stunned

[2021-07-19T21:24:44] ATTACK: Goobina (129,146,2) against Jadon Carter (ANTAG)(130,146,2): Handcuffed (the handcuffs)

Poppy Seed

Arrested by Security at 21:35

[2021-07-19T21:35:09] ATTACK: Anna Stroble (71,103,2) against Poppy Seed (ANTAG)(71,105,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/energy/electrode

[2021-07-19T21:35:15] ATTACK: Anna Stroble (70,104,2) against Poppy Seed (ANTAG)(71,105,2): stunned

[2021-07-19T21:35:21] ATTACK: Philippe Collins (71,104,2) against Poppy Seed (ANTAG)(71,105,2): Handcuffed (the handcuffs)

All 3 cultists caught within the span of 4-5 minutes between each arrest at 21:24 to 21:29, two by the same security officer and the third by a separate security officer. ERT had nothing to do with any arrests, as they had just arrived by the time of 2 arrests and had no hand in the third or fourth arrest. The last cultist, was caught by Security at 21:35.

Jadon and Malo deconverted by Paranormal ERT at 21:26 (With some choice words from Jadon)

[2021-07-19T21:26:14] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (123,148,2):  'WAIT'

[2021-07-19T21:26:16] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (123,148,2):  'WHAT THE FUCK'

[2021-07-19T21:26:20] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'ARE YOU KIDDING'

[2021-07-19T21:26:22] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'AHAHAHAHAHA'

[2021-07-19T21:26:24] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (122,146,2):  'bee gone of cultist'

[2021-07-19T21:26:31] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'Are you kidding'

[2021-07-19T21:26:32] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'Fucking'

[2021-07-19T21:26:35] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'PARANORMAL ERT'

[2021-07-19T21:26:37] SAY: Master Sergeant Feufer (123,147,2):  'inquisitors yes'

[2021-07-19T21:26:39] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'For -four- cultists?'

[2021-07-19T21:26:42] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'Oh'

[2021-07-19T21:26:48] SAY: Boidca/(Jadon Carter) (122,147,2):  'For some reason I need to cyro so suddenly'

[2021-07-19T21:27:05] SAY: B.U.T.L.E.R. (143,23,2): Jadon Carter (Assistant) has entered long-term storage.

Can refer to deadchat that Norwest posted above.

New Cult spawned in at 21:30 as all the original cult members were wanted / arrested / deconverted.

[2021-07-19T21:30:42] ADMIN: Norwest tried making a Cult with One-Click-Antag

Ryker Pierce deconverted by Paranormal ERT at 21:31

[2021-07-19T21:31:01] ADMIN: Master Sergeant Feufer set secstatus of  Ryker Pierce to Released, comment: De-culted

Poppy Seed deconverted by Security at 21:37

[2021-07-19T21:37:24] ATTACK: Rurik Varlim (126,174,2) against Poppy Seed (ANTAG)(127,173,2): Fed the officer's mug. Reagents: water (50u)

While Engineering and Commander was working on the Engine, Paranormal ERT were stunning each other at the holodeck from 21:41 to 21:49. Effectively doing nothing against the new cult.

[2021-07-19T21:41:12] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (121,172,2):  'well'

[2021-07-19T21:41:17] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (121,172,2):  'we did our job'

[2021-07-19T21:41:25] SAY: Master Sergeant Feufer (119,171,2):  'well if this wasn't a mixed team'

[2021-07-19T21:41:27] SAY: Master Sergeant Feufer (119,171,2):  'we would leave'

[2021-07-19T21:41:34] SAY: Master Sergeant Feufer (118,172,2):  'but the engineers are working too'

[2021-07-19T21:41:36] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (117,171,2):  'want to fight in holodeck?'

[2021-07-19T21:41:41] SAY: Master Sergeant Feufer (118,172,2):  'maybe I do'

Paranormal ERTs were pulled out at 21:49, other ERT remained to work on the engine still.

[2021-07-19T21:49:44] ADMIN: Matttheficus replied to Master Sergeant Feufer's Centcomm message with the message Inquisitor, you are being recalled for a mission in another Sector. Please return to the Trurl for further tasking..

[2021-07-19T21:49:53] ADMIN: Matttheficus replied to Master Sergeant Reichard's Centcomm message with the message Inquisitor, you are being recalled for a mission in another Sector. Please return to the Trurl for further tasking..

So the timeline for ERT goes, they arrived, the Paranormal hanged around at processing, barely leaving it until 21:41, a total of 17 minutes since they arrived, never actively fought, engaged or went after the cult. They then played about in the holodeck, disarming, stunning, cuffing and all each other.. then went back to CC. While Commander and Engineers remained to work on the engine. Effectively, the ERT did zero to the cult. They made no arrests, had no interactions with the cult outside of the paranormal deconverts, never set anyones status and barely spoke a word to Security or on their channel.

If anything the Paranormal ERT were getting in the way of Security and Command;

[2021-07-19T21:32:39] SAY:Master Sergeant Reichard (108,110,2):  'CC orders'

[2021-07-19T21:32:46] ATTACK: Master Sergeant Reichard (ANTAG)(108,106,2) against Thorium (109,105,2): Pushed onto a table (NTR)

[2021-07-19T21:33:45] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (125,134,2):  'BS'

[2021-07-19T21:33:51] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (125,134,2):  'urgetn business'

[2021-07-19T21:33:53] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (125,134,2):  'in bridge'

[2021-07-19T21:34:06] ATTACK: Master Sergeant Reichard (ANTAG)(115,137,2) against Dylan Neely (114,137,2): Pushed onto a table (Blueshield)

[2021-07-19T21:34:36] SAY: Master Sergeant Reichard (115,137,2):  'CC orders'

[2021-07-19T21:34:42] ATTACK: Master Sergeant Reichard (ANTAG)(115,136,2) against Dayana (114,137,2): Pushed onto a table (Captain)

Edited July 20, 2021 by Abydos

[necaladun]

5 hours ago, Norwest said:

I'll ping @necaladun for his final judgment on the subject, but frankly, I don't believe that the ERT are the root cause of this complaint. I certainly could have communicated my reasoning more clearly, such as specifying to the Paranormal ERT that I wanted them focusing on deconversion in the Brig itself, but I don't believe any of this is an issue so objectively terrible that it needed its own thread. Boidca, I believe the real issue is your own internal coping mechanisms for handling anger. I think the fundamental problem here is that you're angry you 'lost' so early into the round, and are using the ERT as a useful tool to redirect that anger outwards.

I'm going to have to agree here. The level of frustration and anger really doesn't seem in proportion to how utterly minor this is. Sometimes admins misjudge how well antags are doing, it happens all the time. Sometimes antags get dunked before ERT can even arrive.

Adding more antags back in seems a good way to rebalance things, and overall it seems Norwest did a decent job of trying to keep the round interesting.

 

 

@Boidca - what resolution to you expect to see from this complaint? 

[Boidca]

If I am allowed to detract from the response/complaint template, I disagree highly with the suggestion that “Being stuck in Processing, awaiting to be deconverted” isn’t a purposeful design element of cult rounds.

By issuing 2 admin spawn instant de-converters, the preparations of the sec/chaplain/chemists to get holy water, ensure their prisoners are deconverted, and interact with one another as a crew in order to effectively neutralize the cultists was rendered moot.

The point of holy water as a slow, drawn out process not is not only RP relevant, but a specifically designed mechanic in order to allow for potential trickery, rescue, to wiggle from cuffs and be summoned away- I can’t speak for anyone else but i’ve used the time while being decoverted to make an escape on a number of occasions. For an admin to plonk two ERT who can de-convert people instantly at the start of the round is unfun and spoils any efforts of round-start cultists to evade, escape or otherwise trick sec to going free.

If it’s felt so strongly that this isn’t by design, and to warrant 2 instant de-covertvers to a round in order to speed up the de-culting process, perhaps open a PR to increase the speed in which holy water decoverts, or issue prayer beads to sec in order to speed up the process on all cult rounds?

It’s been highlighted in the above logs that even before the ERT was on station, the cult had already dropped like flies.

Not recognising this as an Admin is the mistake that I wanted to highlight, shed of any instant frustration that being in the moment caused, hence the use of this official means to express it, instead of remaining salty in dead chat, or on discord.

Accepting you’ve made a mistake is the first step in learning from it, and my frustrated comments can be taken as inflammatory, so taking this to complaints was the only other option.

I hope that the initial outburst of my discontent with the choices made doesn’t marr the genuine error made within the round and everyone can learn from their mistakes.

One thing I didn’t expect was to be psychoanalysed and my behaviour deconstructed so handedly, you know me only through interactions on an ancient 2d spaceman game, but we live and learn.

That’s probably the best we’ll get out of this, I’m content with the response. Ciao

[necaladun]

To claim this is a 'misuse of power' is incredibly unfair to @Norwest.

You seem to have taken it personally that the cult got dunked on. I'm pretty sure Norwest didn't send the ERT to personally punish the Cultists or you, or to ruin anyone's round. 

Admins make mistakes sometimes - I once banned the entire server due to using the wrong panel - and it seems Norwest tried to correct this by adding more cultists, even though the ERT had no actual effect I can see. All I can really see this admin complaint achieving is some weird 'victory' over Norwest because you take it way too seriously who wins and loses. Your salt in deadchat shows how weirdly personally you took who wins or loses in a videogame.

Norwest made a mistake, realised this, and tried to correct it all within the space of one round. No harm no foul. Admin complaints shouldn't be used to progress your own weird vendettas, but to actually address serious errors or misconduct by the admin staff. 

Complaint is without merit and resolved.