Complaint Against Lightfire53

[Mitchs98]

Admin(s) Key: LIghtfire53
Your ckey (Byond username): Mitchs98
Your Discord name (if applicable): Mitchs98#5091

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 12AM(CST)/5AM(GMT) 7/27/2021 

Nature of complaint:
(Select all that apply: EG - clarification required, misapplication of rules, misconduct, abuse of powers, feedback, other)
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: Misapplication of rules, clarification required.

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): I ahelped about being murderboned 2 minutes after stepping off of the shuttle, was told it was part of their 'grand scheme', summarily ignored after trying to continue the conversation further. Learned the antagonist in question was simply murderboning security, bragged about it in deadchat, and was not a hijack antagonist. 

Full description of events:

Right. There isn't too much more to this than in the TL;DR. I joined the game, made a paper sack, and asked on sec comms and general comms why we were on red. Got the general gist of things, no specific details on current threats beyond the AI and there being emaggings. I head to the locker-room as I usually do to change, and this time around deconstruct a few things to make bolas out of metal there in-case I need them quickly. Rosskaze(or something along those lines...honestly the name is confusing), walks up and starts talking to me asking about the bolas. I tell him I prefer them over ebolas because of their reusability. At this point I'm now crafting the bolas, and after I finish crafting the last one and go to close the crafting menu and put them away I'm tased and summarily decapitated with an energy sword where my body is then hidden and head tossed into space.

Naturally I ahelp this, because, obviously unless they're a hijack antagonist this(usually, barring certain circumstances), isn't allowed to just outright murderbone and permakill security for little reason. After a brief conversation I'm told that it's part of their 'grand scheme' and it was 'part of the game' and I was outside of the protection zone of arrivals so it was seemingly valid. Now, it being part of the game I'm not disagreeing with. By any means at all. But in almost every instance it's frowned upon to just murder security for existing, especially as a non hijack, especially when they aren't presently after you or pursuing you in any manner.

I present this question, not to outright argue with Lightfire, but rather to question what I've been led to believe about the above. The SM soon delams into a Charged Inertia, spawning a Tesla, so the round begins to come to a close. I didn't observe the player in question all round, but I decide to a few minutes after this. I see them in medbay go up to Jacob Pearls, being treated by a doctor for entirely unrelated reasons to their own murdering, and try to prevent their revival. They're successful in doing so, nearly killing a doctor in the process, and disposal their body.

They die shortly before the shuttle leaves to a sentient orange slime, and proceed to brag in deadchat saying 'lol at-least I killed 4 security officers without them noticing' or something extremely along those lines.

This just leads me to question what exactly their grand scheme was, and what they told the admin. I understand they'll likely need to be dealt with in a player complaint if this whole situation was deemed incorrectly handled, and I'd appreciate being DM'd their character name at the time(Not their BYOND key, for obvious reasons of confidentiality even though I saw it but forgot it) in such a case to file it(if it needs to be filed and won't be looked into separately, again depending on the findings of this).

Do note, this isn't meant to directly get LightFire53 in trouble or anything, that's not my goal here. I just believe it was incorrectly handled based on the Advanced Rules precedents of 'Additionally, you shouldn’t be playing an antag just to rack up as many kills as you can - yes, even of security. Security can be killed if they’re an active threat to you, but killing them “just in case” is poor form.' as well as 'Security (As well as borgs and the AI) shouldn’t be taken out pre-emptively. If they are actively tracking you, they may be eliminated to help you escape. However, staff may take objection if they believe you are attempting to kill as many for the sake of killing, rather than your objectives.'

I truly don't believe they had any sort of grand scheme beyond murderboning security, and if LightFire53 was told such I believe they were lied to.

Apologies if this seems to be a sort of mix between a player complaint and an admin complaint, I just want to give as much relevant information as possible. 

Thank you for your time reading this.

[LightFire53]

Admin's version of events: Upon messaging the player taking hostile actions against security, I was informed by them that they were removing security officers slowly. They had the objective to steal the Head of Security's energy gun, and that they were making use of things such as PDAs, Security ID's, and a voice changer to further their actions. I found this acceptable reasoning, and relayed that there was a plan in play.

Admin's reasoning for actions: As I treat PM's with confidentiality, I was not open to providing all the details to another player. Mitchs had pressed further, but came across in PM's as someone who was unhappy with my response, which is not an uncommon response to when I don't share all the details of actions I take. While I did not officially close the conversation with them, I had felt my last statements were sufficient.

It should also be noted that if there was further wrongdoing by the player (such as actions taken against Jacob Pearls, since I am unsure if they were a security officer of that round), it hadn't been reported.

They had also not permanently removed Mitchs from the round. They had beheaded and tossed the head to space, which had promptly hit an asteroid and bounced right back into the station. The head wasn't melted, or tossed in lava, or cremated. It was left lying in the airlock, to the best of my knowledge.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing or disputing of: I disagree with the statement that my judgement call was wrong, nor with the statement that they were "murderboning" security. It's not like they were going loud and causing a ruckus non-hijack, they were stealthily removing security from play to further an objective held by the head of security. I would also disagree a single statement of accomplishment would be bragging. This entire situation would be different if they had no security related objectives.

[Sixzma]

Your ckey (Byond username): Sixzma
Your Discord name (if applicable): Jakobi#1904

Involvment in incident: Right, So I was a security officer that round, I died trying to kill the AI, but I was taken to medbay. The doctors tried to revive me despite the chaotic enviroment, I was asleep during the full encounter with "Rosskaze" at the time I didn’t know they were an agent, they suddenly started attacking the doctor that was treating me and finished me off while I was still on soft crit, I thought at the time "Oh, I guess they just want some gear or I am an objective" but they didn’t even bother to loot and instead just throwed my body down disposals. Honestly I don’t know about the other officers, only know Mitch side of the story.

Agreement/disagreement with described events:

I agree with Mitch, They "Murderboned" security with no real reasons other than their "grand scheme to steal something from the HoS", not to mention that security was already dealing with a malf AI, multiple agents and pretty sure there was only like 2-3 officers were alive at the moment this happened, This seems to be too much as a non-hijack antagonist to go on their way of "murderboning" sec officers while all that happened.

[necaladun]

Hi there,

While murderboning all of security 'just in case' or pre-emptively acceptable for antags in general, it seems this was done specifically and strategically to attempt to take out the HoS - specifically:

On 7/27/2021 at 4:31 PM, LightFire53 said:

they were making use of things such as PDAs, Security ID's, and a voice changer to further their actions.

This seems more than just murdering security for the sake of murder, and to be directly related their goals of taking out one of the hardest targets on the station.

On 7/27/2021 at 4:31 PM, LightFire53 said:

As I treat PM's with confidentiality, I was not open to providing all the details to another player. Mitchs had pressed further, but came across in PM's as someone who was unhappy with my response, which is not an uncommon response to when I don't share all the details of actions I take. While I did not officially close the conversation with them, I had felt my last statements were sufficient.

Admins don't need to explain details - especially if it would reveal IC information such as it being part of a greater plan. "Legit" is really all they need to tell you, and you can ask for more clarification after the round.

On 7/27/2021 at 4:31 PM, LightFire53 said:

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing or disputing of: I disagree with the statement that my judgement call was wrong, nor with the statement that they were "murderboning" security. It's not like they were going loud and causing a ruckus non-hijack, they were stealthily removing security from play to further an objective held by the head of security. I would also disagree a single statement of accomplishment would be bragging. This entire situation would be different if they had no security related objectives.

This makes sense to me, and seems in line with the antags objectives, and the rules about tackling people to further your plans. Security is a dangerous job, and does carry more risk than usual of this sort of thing - eliminating a bunch of security along the way is something that is bound to happen. However:

8 hours ago, Sixzma said:

they didn’t even bother to loot and instead just throwed my body down disposals. Honestly I don’t know about the other officers, only know Mitch side of the story.

This probably should have been ahelped tbh, as this is the part it seems to be going over the line, which doesn't seem part of what Lightfire referred to when talking to the player and Mitchs. Creating a ruckus and using the PDA/IDs of security and a voice changer to get into the brig is one thing, but this is the point at which it was going into 'murder all of sec' territory, and the plan had been abandoned with the goal of just eliminating sec. It doesn't seem @LightFire53was aware of this, so in future I highly recommend ahelping these kind of things. One sec taken out as part of a plan is one thing, but if we get multiple sec being killed (Especially in medbay like that) then it points to a pattern.

I'd likely recommend noting the player to see if such things continue, and/or talking to them if they're online at the time - @LightFire53 probably knows more of the overall context so I'd like you to say what action you think should be taken given the extra information?

[LightFire53]

5 hours ago, necaladun said:

This probably should have been ahelped tbh, as this is the part it seems to be going over the line, which doesn't seem part of what Lightfire referred to when talking to the player and Mitchs. Creating a ruckus and using the PDA/IDs of security and a voice changer to get into the brig is one thing, but this is the point at which it was going into 'murder all of sec' territory, and the plan had been abandoned with the goal of just eliminating sec. It doesn't seem @LightFire53was aware of this, so in future I highly recommend ahelping these kind of things. One sec taken out as part of a plan is one thing, but if we get multiple sec being killed (Especially in medbay like that) then it points to a pattern.

As this is where things deviate from what I was told was their goal, and they started to go loud/against what I was told, this would have warranted a more in depth discussion about staying on target with goal and objectives, however since I lack omniscience, I did not know of these events. It's one thing to take down someone with the idea to use their stuff, it's another to take them down quite publically in medbay and not take any of the tools I was told they were using.

[Mitchs98]

7 hours ago, necaladun said:

This probably should have been ahelped tbh, as this is the part it seems to be going over the line, which doesn't seem part of what Lightfire referred to when talking to the player and Mitchs. Creating a ruckus and using the PDA/IDs of security and a voice changer to get into the brig is one thing, but this is the point at which it was going into 'murder all of sec' territory, and the plan had been abandoned with the goal of just eliminating sec. It doesn't seem @LightFire53was aware of this, so in future I highly recommend ahelping these kind of things. One sec taken out as part of a plan is one thing, but if we get multiple sec being killed (Especially in medbay like that) then it points to a pattern.

I'd likely recommend noting the player to see if such things continue, and/or talking to them if they're online at the time - @LightFire53 probably knows more of the overall context so I'd like you to say what action you think should be taken given the extra information?

Normally I would of, and in hindsight I should of, but I didn't believe it would be relevant as based on my response given I assumed the player was either a hijack antagonist or had otherwise been given permission in some form to kill security. This is what my response to him questioning antags being allowed to murderbone security was, rather than an unhappy response, eluded towards(them being a hijack antagonist). Which is fully understandable that I wasn't outright told that, and it's on me entirely for not ahelping Jacob Pearls' murder and the attack in medbay.

While I still don't fully agree with the events that happened given the context of them, I respect your differences of opinion as well as ruling on this specific scenario and recognize fault in myself for not ahelping the situation in medbay. I'll be sure to do so in the future and not be so quick to assume what an admin's response means, especially on situations that seem a bit dodgy(I.E the player in question conveniently explaining an excuse to kill security, for instance, or something along those lines, and continuing to do questionable behavior). 

I appreciate you both taking your time to clarify things a bit more for me and explain the situation a bit better.

[necaladun]

Sorry for the delay here,

It seems this is a case where the initial 'plan' would have been acceptable, then spiralled out. As @LightFire53said, had he knowledge of the future developments he woulda cracked down on it, so I'm satisfied he took the correct actions based on his knowledge.

Remember, if in doubt, ahelp! Even if we have all logs on, we can miss things in the spam, or when we go to get a drink or something.