Make clings immune to SR gibbing

[Frank]

Clings are hands down my favorite antags. I get this feeling of paranoia whenever they are confirmed. It's as if anyone nearby that I don't know can be a cling. It's awesome. 

They are a little weak right now in many ways. Unlike vampires, they dont have a million stuns. Instead they have survivability and identity theft. Lots and lots of identity theft. However I do feel like the cons do outweigh the pros a little bit. 

If you get caught and beaten to the point of death, you do always get a second chance unless you happen to be decapitated by security or gibbed. I have a problem with the gibbing part, as recently I see a trend of Brig Physicians rushing to medbay to get SR the moment clings are confirmed. This is clearly powergaming, and it can ruin a cling run completely. 

My suggestion is to make clings either completely immune to all the effects of SR or just immune to the gibbing part. I'm not sure how hard this is to code but it would help balancing it out a little. 

My English is very nice and I will not apologize for it. 

[CornMyCob]

Why SR specifically? I see the decapitation method used far more frequently than SR gibbing, that and cremation, and they all effectively have the same outcome for the changeling besides maybe the possibility of not getting borged. All methods generally prevent the changeling from reviving before they even get a chance to and I don't think changelings should be entitled to a chance to revive if they're caught by security.

2 hours ago, Frank said:

My suggestion is to make clings either completely immune to all the effects of SR or just immune to the gibbing part. I'm not sure how hard this is to code but it would help balancing it out a little. 

Codewise, not very difficult to implement however this would conflict with their headslug ability which gibs the changeling so something would have the change there too.

[Frank]

16 minutes ago, CornMyCob said:

Why SR specifically? I see the decapitation method used far more frequently than SR gibbing, that and cremation, and they all effectively have the same outcome for the changeling besides maybe the possibility of not getting borged. All methods generally prevent the changeling from reviving before they even get a chance to and I don't think changelings should be entitled to a chance to revive if they're caught by security.

Codewise, not very difficult to implement however this would conflict with their headslug ability which gibs the changeling so something would have the change there too.

Well my man, it's both quicker and easier to just forcefeed someone one 1u pill of SR instead of decapitating. This can be done in the field without surgery tools, no need for a table or anything. And when it happens, you're screwed. 

[CornMyCob]

1 hour ago, Frank said:

Well my man, it's both quicker and easier to just forcefeed someone one 1u pill of SR instead of decapitating. This can be done in the field without surgery tools, no need for a table or anything. And when it happens, you're screwed. 

I don't disagree. My point is that even if this was implemented, if an officer that kills you wants to keep you dead, they will via another method so this doesn't change much at all.

[Frank]

1 minute ago, CornMyCob said:

I don't disagree. My point is that even if this was implemented, if an officer that kills you wants to keep you dead, they will via another method so this doesn't change much at all.

What other methods are you thinking about that doesn't involve pushing onto a table and performing amputation on the head?

[Vallidian]

A few counter arguments to this.

One. Why would SR not gib a changeling just like any other sentient? That sounds snowflakey to me.

Two. ->

2 hours ago, CornMyCob said:

if an officer that kills you wants to keep you dead, they will

Three. Making them immune just adds a method to tell if they're a changeling.

2 hours ago, Frank said:

What other methods are you thinking about that doesn't involve pushing onto a table and performing amputation on the head?

Beating the shit out of them until they get them to a gibber or chapel?

[Charliminator]

16 minutes ago, Vallidian said:

Making them immune just adds a method to tell if they're a changeling.

I don't agree with the post but, if a sec officer murders then gibs someone with SR to "test if they are a cling" they should get bwoinked/banned. witch trials over here.

[Shadeykins]

7 hours ago, Frank said:

as recently I see a trend of Brig Physicians rushing to medbay to get SR the moment clings are confirmed. This is clearly powergaming, and it can ruin a cling run completely.

Brig Physicians aren't to be chasing down changelings in any way, shape, or form.

They're not officers.

If they're acting like officers, ahelp it.

If the cling gets caught in security and the brig doc SRs them, that's on the cling for being reckless and trying to infiltrate a secure area. No different than a changeling going loud in medical and getting decap'd by the CMO or a surgeon at that point tbqh.

SR already requires a changeling to be dead. If you're dead, and killed by security, chances are you're also cuffed and being actively beaten every time you attempt a revive. SR doesn't change the dynamic here.

[destinycall]

58 minutes ago, Charliminator said:

 witch trials over here.

That was my thought.   Like drowning an accused witch.   Either way, they are super dead, because if you are wrong, their corpse will just blow up.   

Pretty horrible way to hunt for changelings. 

[Charliminator]

10 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

chances are you're also cuffed

Clings reviving does remove cuffs.

 

Imo clings are in a bad state. They are KOS and weaker than traitors. Their kit is geared towards stealth which isnt very fun for the targets or security. They need some changes but I'm not sure this is it. I do understand the intent however.

[SabreML]

One idea that I thought was very interesting was something along the lines of what this thread suggested, but more expanded upon:

Allow Changelings to be decapitated, gibbed, etc. But let them survive anything up to the complete destruction of their body, or at least anything which wouldn't kill a generic horror monster in a movie (Gibbed by an explosion, or dusting/cremating).

I can't speak on the coding difficulty of this yet since I haven't actually looked into it, but both decapitated and gibbed changelings still have a fully intact head which their ghost possesses.
Maybe that head could grow legs and skitter off, grow a full body back out of the remains of its neck, or just turn into a regular old headslug and escape.

I believe that this would fix the majority of the issues plaguing Changelings at the moment, primarily because the only way to be sure that you've killed them would be cremation or dusting. Still not exactly hard to do, but it would solve the annoying "cheesy" methods of beating them and make clings a lot more of an interesting and scary threat to the station than the slight annoyance they currently are.

(Not actually a finalised suggestion obviously, just a cool shower thought I had.)

[Viz]

The fact that removing a cling's brain somehow stops its regeneration is pretty weird. On many other servers you do in fact have to cremate them (like you are supposed to here). Feels kinda exploity that you can just decap, especially with some officers LITERALLY CARRYING CIRCULAR SAWS OR SR PILLS. 

[Sweaterkittens]

1 hour ago, Woje said:

The fact that removing a cling's brain somehow stops its regeneration is pretty weird. On many other servers you do in fact have to cremate them (like you are supposed to here). Feels kinda exploity that you can just decap, especially with some officers LITERALLY CARRYING CIRCULAR SAWS OR SR PILLS. 

At that point it feels a bit more like a discussion of meta/powergaming than cling balance. I don't think lings should be able to completely come back to life out of nowhere when they're only a disembodied brain, but Sec Officers making a beeline for SR the moment that clings are suspected is pretty rough.

7 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

Brig Physicians aren't to be chasing down changelings in any way, shape, or form.

They're not officers.

If they're acting like officers, ahelp it.

If the cling gets caught in security and the brig doc SRs them, that's on the cling for being reckless and trying to infiltrate a secure area. No different than a changeling going loud in medical and getting decap'd by the CMO or a surgeon at that point tbqh.

SR already requires a changeling to be dead. If you're dead, and killed by security, chances are you're also cuffed and being actively beaten every time you attempt a revive. SR doesn't change the dynamic here.

I would just like to echo this sentiment as someone who plays almost exclusively brig phys these days. I always get SR if it's available because it's a great drug and I don't want to have to take a trip to chem if I desperately need to revive someone (especially since you're already working against the clock). That being said, the stars that would have to align for me to be in a position to use it on a dead cling are crazy. Most of the time you're in security or medical as a Brig Phys, which means you either got caught, killed and confirmed in the security office, or you were right next to the fridge dispensing SR anyway. Not only that, but every sec officer I've seen goes full-panic and beelines for the incinerator the moment they get a ling down - I doubt I would even have time to suggest SR before they're halfway to escape. 

I don't think worrying about brig phys's uses SR offensively is something you really need to worry about.

[Viz]

11 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

SR already requires a changeling to be dead. If you're dead, and killed by security, chances are you're also cuffed and being actively beaten every time you attempt a revive. SR doesn't change the dynamic here.

Actually forgot to refer to this. First of all, revive drops cuffs, so that does quite significantly change the dynamic, because a reviving cling can and will overpower an officer given the chance, if they're the better spaceman. Second of all, being dragged to the cremator gives other clings an opportunity to save you, like the cooperative antag they are. SRing or decapitating clings immediately upon capture cheats them of their entire revive mechanic. The SOP clearly states they are to be cremated, so presumably they are meant to be lifeforms that can regenerate from anything less than that.

It feels incredibly gamey to do something else due to game mechanics working like they do. Clings are weak, their abilities generally suck in comparison to the other antags' analogues, and they're meant to make up for that with persistence. 

[Shadeykins]

On 7/29/2021 at 4:35 AM, Woje said:

Actually forgot to refer to this. First of all, revive drops cuffs, so that does quite significantly change the dynamic, because a reviving cling can and will overpower an officer given the chance, if they're the better spaceman. Second of all, being dragged to the cremator gives other clings an opportunity to save you, like the cooperative antag they are. SRing or decapitating clings immediately upon capture cheats them of their entire revive mechanic. The SOP clearly states they are to be cremated, so presumably they are meant to be lifeforms that can regenerate from anything less than that.

It feels incredibly gamey to do something else due to game mechanics working like they do. Clings are weak, their abilities generally suck in comparison to the other antags' analogues, and they're meant to make up for that with persistence. 

Thanks for the heads up. Been awhile since I played as them.

Quite honestly I never noticed because when a changeling gets dragged to the crematorium, they're typically being beaten by three different people who all possess instastun. I honestly didn't notice because changelings escape rate after being caught is so abysmally low. When I have noticed them escape, it's as headslugs, and they generally spend the rest of the round in the vents.

[Spacemanspark]

Another problem with SR to add to my collection. 

I'm frankly of the camp that SR should straight up not be a thing, personally. 

However, it won't really change much in regards to changelings. 

[Viz]

9 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

Thanks for the heads up. Been awhile since I played as them.

Quite honestly I never noticed because when a changeling gets dragged to the crematorium, they're typically being beaten by three different people who all possess instastun. I honestly didn't notice because changelings escape rate after being caught is so abysmally low.

Yeah, and that occupies those three officers. That's kind of the idea, it's an opportunity cost. If you want to 100% prevent the revival, you need to occupy a silly number of officers for a minute or two. That, and and this is just crematorium visits. Clings that escape, tend to escape before it gets to that point, generally somewhere along the way to the brig. 15 chemicals to get up, 5 to activate speedy legs and it's adios if the officer was not paying attention or kept mindlessly discharging their baton on the corpse.

[Charliminator]

49 minutes ago, Woje said:

5 to activate speedy legs

It doesn't cost any chems to use speed legs. :P

[Viz]

8 minutes ago, Charliminator said:

It doesn't cost any chems to use speed legs. :P

Forgot it was that bullshit lmao. Costs 1 point to get, too. Though I guess that's the only really good ability they get.

[BryanR]

On 7/29/2021 at 6:35 AM, Woje said:

cooperative antag they are

Just wanted to chime in. Changelings aren't a cooperative antag. Yes, they have a hive mind that allows them to talk to each other, however they are single agents, not obligated to save fellow changelings.

Also I don't see benefit to making Changelings immune to SR. If anything, this can unintentionally create a new meta where people use it as a way to test individuals for being a changeling.

Creating a new problem to stop an existing problem sounds rather silly to me. Also, even if Changelings were made immune, not gonna stop Security from taking a sharp object to decap or just taze/beat you on your trip to the cremator.

[Viz]

1 hour ago, BryanR said:

Changelings aren't a cooperative antag. Yes, they have a hive mind that allows them to talk to each other, however they are single agents, not obligated to save fellow changelings.

In other words they have a mechanic that allows them to cooperate better, one would say. They sure aren't a team antag though as defined by rules.

I agree with what you're saying, though. The problem lies with officers and brig docs skipping proper procedure for efficiency to redtext changelings faster instead of taking the risk they're meant to take by design. Even if changelings turned into headslugs on decap, all that does is effectively just say it's okay to do that and then beat the headslug to a pulp which is done very easily.

[BryanR]

6 hours ago, Woje said:

In other words they have a mechanic that allows them to cooperate better, one would say. They sure aren't a team antag though as defined by rules.

I had a long rebuke planned but I figured I'd keep it simple. Your arguing of semantics isn't impressing anyone, let alone me, it just makes you look like a pedantic ass. I strongly advise cutting it out. 

 

On 7/29/2021 at 6:35 AM, Woje said:

Second of all, being dragged to the cremator gives other clings an opportunity to save you, like the cooperative antag they are

My correction was in reference to a point you erroneously attempted to make in that they are a cooperative, or some might say TEAM antagonist, as opposed to the lone antagonists they are. They aren't under obligation and to blow their own cover to save a fellow Changeling that may have blown theirs. Its actually quite common to have Changelings fight each other in completing their own objectives.

Edited July 31, 2021 by BryanR

[Viz]

26 minutes ago, BryanR said:

I had a long rebuke planned but I figured I'd keep it simple. Your arguing of semantics isn't impressing anyone, let alone me, it just makes you look like a pedantic ass. I strongly advise cutting it out.

Well the semantics are just relevant here, I specifically avoided the word team because that's a rules thing, and they very clearly aren't a team antag. I'm not being pedantic, just making sure that the point I am making gets across. They have specific game mechanics that encourage cooperation, and those mechanics come into play often despite them not being required to use it (and sometimes using it to fuck each other over, in fact).

Changelings do sometimes cooperate, because it's advantageous to do so if their objectives don't collide. It's just not fair for sec to carry around SR to rob them of the opportunity to use the mechanic.

[Longpipe23]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:15 PM, Charliminator said:

They are weaker than traitors

> 
Unless they got a nerf recently changelings are pretty fucking bonkers. I think it's just people using the kit incorrectly. However, to be fair, if you play them as intended - a stealth antagonist - it does admittedly kind of suck. 

[Frank]

17 minutes ago, Longpipe23 said:

> 
Unless they got a nerf recently changelings are pretty fucking bonkers. I think it's just people using the kit incorrectly. However, to be fair, if you play them as intended - a stealth antagonist - it does admittedly kind of suck. 

Compared to traitors which are captured and put in perma, clings are a lot harder to play due to being KOS. Once a cling is confirmed you get beat to shit and beheaded normally. The kit doesn't quite make up for that in my opinion.