On the topic of robotics SoP...

[Spacemanspark]

I don't think this thread is any surprise to anyone that pays attention to the things I say on discord.

Put simply... this stuff isn't particularly ideal, especially in regards to a few of these specific scenarios:

A) Combat mechas can be freely pumped out at will on just code blue. You don't need combat mechas around until there's an actual deadly emergency at hand.

B) With the exception of illegal combat implants, anyone can request nearly any type of implant/ augmentation they desire, and more or less be entitled towards getting it. It doesn't make too much sense for a civilian to be strutting about with secHUDs, a welding shield and a surgical toolset implant.

C) Borgification is a very strange topic, and many consider it to be fairly LRP to randomly decide to get borged. However, as it's a fairly big topic that's laced deeply into Para's culture, I think that a basic change to enable roboticists to decide whether or not they want to perform any borgification at their own discretion would allow for more interesting RP for the time being--think along the lines of personal ethics/ morales. Perhaps also require a psychiatric check and signature (those poor therapists could afford something to actually do for once) if the roboticist is willing. 

 

EDIT: I've reworded point 3 to be more clear as to what I want to do with the SoP regarding borgifications at this time, rather than go on a personal rant. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[Viz]

1 minute ago, Spacemanspark said:

A) Combat mechas can be freely pumped out at will on just code blue. You don't need combat mechas around until there's an actual deadly emergency at hand.'

B) With the exception of illegal combat implants, anyone can request anything at anytime and be, more or less, entitled to it.

C) Perhaps more of a personal issue with how things work... cyborgification is very, very, very vaguely defined. If we think about it, resleeving yourself into a metal slave shell is something that should be very, very rare, if ever done at all--or, at the least, give individual roboticists permission to say 'yes' or 'no' to wanting to provide borgifications rather than having a paper with three words and a signature shoved down their throat dictate everything. I could go on a whole rant on this point, but... ICly, it makes very little sense, and OOCly, there are many problems as is with several players getting borged throughout the round, creating a ridiculous force of power for the AI. If you want to be a borg, join as one from the roundstart menu... or observe and go into a robotic brain.

A) Oh my god yes. Mechas are incredibly unrestricted for how much power they have. The sheer force they bring to the table can singlehandedly ruin the round by simply curbstomping all antags. Especially Gygaxes right now. There is an interesting mech rebalance PR which makes EMPs actually do something, that might be a good start, but yeah, blue is really early for mechas to be produced. I think this was written when people weren't so good at robotics that they shit out 5 mechas in half an hour.

B) Not sure if I follow on this one.

C) I agree wholeheartedly. It's really nonsensical ICly that people just go and get borged. I understand why OOCly, though. Still, pet peeve of mine aswell.

[Spacemanspark]

15 minutes ago, Woje said:

B) Not sure if I follow on this one.

This one isn't as big of a deal as the other two. Think about civilians freely getting securityHUDs or surgical implants, for example--that sort of thing. I did word it very poorly, admittedly!

[Viz]

6 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

This one isn't as big of a deal as the other two. Think about civilians freely getting securityHUDs or surgical implants, for example--that sort of thing. I did word it very poorly, admittedly!

SecHUDs are unrestricted currently which is something I talked with Kyet about before on discord. I don't like that fact but it is what it is.

As for others I don't think they can really demand robotics does anything like that for them. Hell, implant SOP tells them to get implants in medical unless the ORs are taken.

[DevL]

Quote

Medical HUDs must be approved by the Chief Medical Officer before implantation, and Security HUDs require express permission from the Head of Security or Warden;

Combat-capable Implants (such as the CNS Rebooter or Anti-Drop) are not be handed out without express permission from the Head of Security;

The Chief Medical Officer and Research Director have the power to veto any Cybernetic Implantation or Xeno Organ Implantation if they believe it threatens the stability of the station or crew. Only the Captain may override this veto;

From science SOP, me and @Woje had a FUN time with that last one especially, HoS wanting all officers implanted on blue or some shit iirc. This basically covers all bases, as there's really no definition of a cybernetic implant.

 

All the problems here still stand however, as it just takes 1 robo with a heart for greytiders to give them all toolset and welding implants with no repercussions, because ("wELl yOU NevER sAID NO"), or a robo with... Idk, to give all of sec CNS, Anti Drop, Toolsets, Surgical sets, welding, sec hud, etc.

[Sweaterkittens]

I don't have any thoughts on the other points, but I just want to weigh in that I feel like (B) is in an okay spot right now. I feel like Robotics is often pretty good about giving out implants in a reasonable manner. They often don't want to spare the materials for the more expensive version, people don't always ask for them, sometimes the research isn't available, etc. I have not ever seen a Robo just handing out CNS and sechuds to every greytider who comes through, and I feel as though it would be an IC issue if they did (like geneticists just handing out x-ray to everyone).  And frankly, if the Robos have enough time and materials to give the entire secforce an array of high-end implants while something like cultists are confirmed - then I feel that's sort of on the antagonists for waiting so long to take any action. It also requires coordination between three separate departments (Mining, RnD, and robotics + potentially medical, for surgery) to crank something out like that.

That's just my two cents. As an example, as Brig Phys. I often get one specific officer who comes in to get an array of implants (shielded eyes, sechuds, nutriment pump/toolset). Most don't want or don't care to go out of their way to get them.

 

 

 

[MattTheFicus]

A) Combat Mechs REALLY should be a Code Red Only kinda deal. Not to mention they should probably get a tuning pass balance wise, though maybe its just due to the spam that they seem to be immensely strong.

B) https://www.paradisestation.org/wiki/index.php/Standard_Operating_Procedure_(Science)#Exotic_Implants If someone's breaking SoP, thats on the RD. But as DevL said, new/shitter Robos will pump em out anyway.

C) ICly i get it. No rational person would throw away their free will. OOCly it makes sense if someone wants to play a borg. But, just like with RND, there is no SoP saying you HAVE to do requests people make of you. You can just say "no" and there's not much they can do about it unless your partner in Robotics wishes to do it instead. If we were HRP I'd agree, but stifling a player's choice to get borged is one of the less egregious things that players tend to do.

[Spacemanspark]

23 minutes ago, MattTheFicus said:

But, just like with RND, there is no SoP saying you HAVE to do requests people make of you. You can just say "no" and there's not much they can do about it unless your partner in Robotics wishes to do it instead.

Unless the RD/ HoP/ captain threatens to fire you. 

Quote

OOCly it makes sense if someone wants to play a borg.

Join as one round start or play a robotic brain personality. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[ZN23X]

23 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

Unless the RD/ HoP/ captain threatens to fire you. 

I say stick by your character's personality. There's nothing that's preventing you from denying services. It might lead to some sort of conflict as you say...it might get you fired sometimes it might lead to something else. Just roll with what happens. Characters having a unique personality that leads to different situations is what makes things interesting. A roboticist that just blindly fulfills all requests is boring. 

I agree with combat mechs being changed to Code Red. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by ZN23X
Grammar

[Spacemanspark]

4 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

A roboticist that just blindly fulfills all requests is boring

An RD that blindly fires people over something that shouldn't be a common occurrence is also boring, and 99% the outcome. It's part of why people don't do unique character traits. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[Viz]

38 minutes ago, MattTheFicus said:

A) Combat Mechs REALLY should be a Code Red Only kinda deal. Not to mention they should probably get a tuning pass balance wise, though maybe its just due to the spam that they seem to be immensely strong.

#15911 Gives mechs a very meaningful weakness in EMPs (like they are meant to have) and it's been approved by Kyet. You'd have a better idea about its status though.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Woje
spelling bothers me

[ZN23X]

8 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

An RD that blindly fires people over something that shouldn't be a common occurrence is also boring, and 99% the outcome. It's part of why people don't do unique character traits. 

I'm not sure that updating SOP would prevent this (which I'm just realizing now that this kind of applies to all of this...) It would give you a IC point to argue against being fired for denying services or combat mech being built on blue but you can also still fight against the firing IC with or mechs or whatever without SOP backing you. It wouldn't prevent these things from happening...

I'm pretty sure IAA would love to dig into something like this. Maybe something to bring to the NT reps attention. 

[Spacemanspark]

Most command players tend to cite SoP very frequently and follow it--hell, we sort of expect them to do so by our server rules. Yes, it would have an impact, and if SoP actually makes sense, it will help alleviate some of the overly LRP tendencies of other players while encouraging more creative or interesting playstyles. This can be combined with mechanical changes (largely in regards to mechas) for even more improvement. 

[S34N]

17 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

A) Combat mechas can be freely pumped out at will on just code blue. You don't need combat mechas around until there's an actual deadly emergency at hand.

B) With the exception of illegal combat implants, anyone can request nearly any type of implant/ augmentation they desire, and more or less be entitled towards getting it. It doesn't make too much sense for a civilian to be strutting about with secHUDs, a welding shield and a surgical toolset implant.

C) Perhaps more of a personal issue with how things work... cyborgification is very, very, very vaguely defined. If we think about it, resleeving yourself into a metal slave shell is something that should be very, very rare, if ever done at all--or, at the least, give individual roboticists permission to say 'yes' or 'no' to wanting to provide borgifications rather than having a paper with three words and a signature shoved down their throat dictate everything. I could go on a whole rant on this point, but... ICly, it makes very little sense, and OOCly, there are many problems as is with several players getting borged throughout the round, creating a ridiculous force of power for the AI. If you want to be a borg, join as one from the roundstart menu... or observe and go into a robotic brain.

A) 100% agree, confirmed threats/red alert should be the MINIMUM prerequisite for combat mechs. They are insanely strong and should not be used casually.

 

B) This does need to be more clearly defined, perhaps having a "restricted" category of implants that falls between illegal and regular implants, reserved for sec and command only?

 

C) I don't personally feel either way about this.

[destinycall]

17 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

C) Perhaps more of a personal issue with how things work... cyborgification is very, very, very vaguely defined. If we think about it, resleeving yourself into a metal slave shell is something that should be very, very rare, if ever done at all--or, at the least, give individual roboticists permission to say 'yes' or 'no' to wanting to provide borgifications rather than having a paper with three words and a signature shoved down their throat dictate everything. I could go on a whole rant on this point, but... ICly, it makes very little sense, and OOCly, there are many problems as is with several players getting borged throughout the round, creating a ridiculous force of power for the AI. If you want to be a borg, join as one from the roundstart menu... or observe and go into a robotic brain.

 

As someone who has been playing as a cyborg pretty often recently, I'd like to add my thoughts and perspective on this subject.     

First off, there are only one or two cyborg slots available at round start, while the average number of borg players at the end of the shift is closer to four or five borgs (very rough estimate).   Even if you set-up your occupation preferences to have Cyborg at HIGH, you are far from guaranteed to land the position.   If you have the preference set to medium or lower, your chances of rolling borg at round start approaches zero.   There's obviously a fair bit of demand for this role in the current playerbase.    Not everybody wants to play as a borg and not everyone will play a borg every round, but the competition is definitely there, despite the drawbacks of being borg. 

So what about observing at round start and going into a robotic brain?    Maybe I am missing something obvious, but this doesn't appear to be a valid alternative at all.  I've been dead a fair bit and I've started the round as an observer many times, and never seen a prompt to occupy a robotic brain.  I've seen a prompt for joining as a pAI a few times, but that's a different situation.   Perhaps your ghost must seek out an activated brain in Robotics rather than waiting for a prompt?  Or maybe they are getting scooped up too fast or not getting activated often enough by the working roboticists?  I don't know.   I'll have to look into this the next time I die and my body is irretrievable.  

If you desire to play as a cyborg after round start and you don't want to gamble on the existence of an activated robotic brain, then your options are pretty much limited to requesting cyborgification.    I can't speak for everyone, but I have one particular character that I play when I feel like being a cyborg who has a pretty extensive IC rationale for why he is okay with becoming a disembodied human brain in a metal slave shell.  I don't necessarily spend fifteen minutes explaining my motivation to the roboticist every time I ask to be borged, but I do actually care about the morale/ethical ramifications of being borged and enjoy the RP side of this situation.  Sometimes, I will seek out the Psychiatrist or Chaplain to discuss my desire to become a borg before I go through with the procedure or research cyborgs in the Library, talk about it with existing borgs or confess my wishes to other crew members.  The interactions are interesting and varied.

In my opinion, if you have a strong personal distaste for people becoming borgs on a whim, you should make your preference known in character.  It's okay to say "no" when something bothers you on an ethical level.   Just don't send people on a paperwork scavenger hunt if you intend to deny them - when someone asks you to turn them into a cyborg, let them know point-blank that you do not borg the living.

Looking over the SoP, it says "3. The Roboticist is freely permitted to construct Cyborgs and all assorted equipment".  There is nothing in your SoP that says you MUST comply when someone brings you a signed consent form.  You are allowed to freely construct borgs, not required to do so.   I've signed a LOT of cyborgification consent forms and they are pretty much all worded as liability waivers, not service contracts.    Basically just a way for NT to cover their butt in case someone comes asking why they are turning all their employees into robotic slave labor.  

If you do decide to take a stand against rampant cyborgification, I would recommend notifying the relevant heads of staff (HoP and RD, most likely), so they are aware of your intentions, before it becomes a problem for them.    The other roboticist might be willing to handle borg requests in your stead, or the RD might step in to handle the procedure if he has the free time and cares enough to do so.  Or maybe nobody gets to become a cyborg that round - tough luck, so sad.    By letting the HoP know in advance, he can deny the requests for consent before they even reach Robotics.  You can expect some push-back from upset cyborg applicants and I strongly recommend making some extra robot brains to compensate for the lack of living victims ... I mean, volunteers ... but I don't think you are actually obligated to honor a stamped consent form under the current SoP.   If you get demoted for denial of service, then I would take it to IAA or an NT rep, because you have a legitimate right to NOT want to kill people, scoop out their brains, and slave them to a cybernetic master.

On a related note, I don't see a requirement for written consent prior to borging in the Robotics HoP, but I thought that was a legal requirement.   Shouldn't that be added?   Most of the roboticists I have dealt with seemed to be aware of this requirement and expect a signed and/or stamped consent form prior to the operation, so I just assumed it was standard operating procedure.  Feels like something that deserves to be spelled out in black and white, both for new players and to provide in character grounds for dismissal or arrest if someone is caught borging without written consent.

With respect to the number of borgs in the round creating a balance of power issue with the AI - this feels like something that should be considered by the HoP when signing off on consent to be borged paperwork.  They already do this for other departments - limiting the number of people added into each position, unless approved by heads of each dept.   I don't have any Command experience so I don't know how this information is handled, but there could be a recommended number of borgs that the HoP is expected to pay attention to as a way of discouraging excessive borg production on station.    And it is something to consider, in case the AI should turn out to be malfunctioning.    The roboticist could also check the number of active borgs and possibly confirm with the Research Director before making more cyborgs, if the number of active robots is becoming a legitimate concern.  

Sorry about the long rambling post.  I am pretty fascinated by SS13 cyborgs and give this kind of thing way too much thought.

[Spacemanspark]

I play both robotics AND cyborgs--I've been playing both department for years. I've given this topic several months worth of thought myself.

33 minutes ago, destinycall said:

First off, there are only one or two cyborg slots available at round start, while the average number of borg players at the end of the shift is closer to four or five borgs (very rough estimate).   Even if you set-up your occupation preferences to have Cyborg at HIGH, you are far from guaranteed to land the position.   If you have the preference set to medium or lower, your chances of rolling borg at round start approaches zero.   There's obviously a fair bit of demand for this role in the current playerbase.    Not everybody wants to play as a borg and not everyone will play a borg every round, but the competition is definitely there, despite the drawbacks of being borg. 

For lack of a better word, this falls into the zone of 'entitlement'. Nobody is entitled to these slots--for good reason, as having too many is a problem. Not to mention that this is primarily an OOC thing players do that messes with the IC environment. It's the same as me not being entitled to a robotics slot every round despite there only being two of those, or any other role in the game.

34 minutes ago, destinycall said:

So what about observing at round start and going into a robotic brain?    Maybe I am missing something obvious, but this doesn't appear to be a valid alternative at all.  I've been dead a fair bit and I've started the round as an observer many times, and never seen a prompt to occupy a robotic brain.  I've seen a prompt for joining as a pAI a few times, but that's a different situation.   Perhaps your ghost must seek out an activated brain in Robotics rather than waiting for a prompt?  Or maybe they are getting scooped up too fast or not getting activated often enough by the working roboticists?  I don't know.   I'll have to look into this the next time I die and my body is irretrievable. 

Ghosts are presently allowed to use LOOC to ask for a robotic brain to be made. Robotic brains are also a dime a dozen and are made very regularly--I'm going to guess you're around at all the bad times. Even if none of this were the case, however, I don't particularly see the issue. There shouldn't be, ideally, more than four or so borgs at any given time. I wouldn't be opposed to making the cost of robotic brains higher, either, mind.

37 minutes ago, destinycall said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I have one particular character that I play when I feel like being a cyborg who has a pretty extensive IC rationale for why he is okay with becoming a disembodied human brain in a metal slave shell. 

This is actually something that, when I brought it up with people in the public discord, was frowned upon pretty heavily. People shouldn't be making characters solely to run off to robotics at the start of the round to get borged. A character like that would likely have that sort of thing handled on the Trurl, or spend actual time getting it approved onboard the Cyberiad at the very least. Shoving a paper in my face really isn't enough.
If you want to play a borg, there are options--but you should not be expected to get it every round, nor trying to force your way into it every round.

39 minutes ago, destinycall said:

Looking over the SoP, it says "3. The Roboticist is freely permitted to construct Cyborgs and all assorted equipment".  There is nothing in your SoP that says you MUST comply when someone brings you a signed consent form.  You are allowed to freely construct borgs, not required to do so.   I've signed a LOT of cyborgification consent forms and they are pretty much all worded as liability waivers, not service contracts.    Basically just a way for NT to cover their butt in case someone comes asking why they are turning all their employees into robotic slave labor.  

If you do decide to take a stand against rampant cyborgification, I would recommend notifying the relevant heads of staff (HoP and RD, most likely), so they are aware of your intentions, before it becomes a problem for them.    The other roboticist might be willing to handle borg requests in your stead, or the RD might step in to handle the procedure if he has the free time and cares enough to do so.  Or maybe nobody gets to become a cyborg that round - tough luck, so sad.    By letting the HoP know in advance, he can deny the requests for consent before they even reach Robotics.  You can expect some push-back from upset cyborg applicants and I strongly recommend making some extra robot brains to compensate for the lack of living victims ... I mean, volunteers ... but I don't think you are actually obligated to honor a stamped consent form under the current SoP.   If you get demoted for denial of service, then I would take it to IAA or an NT rep, because you have a legitimate right to NOT want to kill people, scoop out their brains, and slave them to a cybernetic master.

This is correct; however, there's also nothing against the RD/ HoP/ Captain telling you to do it and then subsequently firing you for not wanting to do it. Playing a character that actually takes ethics and morale standing into consideration is actively shut down. Trust me, I've been there.

41 minutes ago, destinycall said:

On a related note, I don't see a requirement for written consent prior to borging in the Robotics HoP, but I thought that was a legal requirement.   Shouldn't that be added?   Most of the roboticists I have dealt with seemed to be aware of this requirement and expect a signed and/or stamped consent form prior to the operation, so I just assumed it was standard operating procedure.  Feels like something that deserves to be spelled out in black and white, both for new players and to provide in character grounds for dismissal or arrest if someone is caught borging without written consent.

It is required... yet it often just falls down to a person walking up with a piece of paper saying 'borg me lol' and a signature. If you're me, you'll have them jumping through a bunch of other hoops, but that often gets shut down by most command staff who just say 'do it' without a second thought.

42 minutes ago, destinycall said:

With respect to the number of borgs in the round creating a balance of power issue with the AI - this feels like something that should be considered by the HoP when signing off on consent to be borged paperwork.  They already do this for other departments - limiting the number of people added into each position, unless approved by heads of each dept.   I don't have any Command experience so I don't know how this information is handled, but there could be a recommended number of borgs that the HoP is expected to pay attention to as a way of discouraging excessive borg production on station.    And it is something to consider, in case the AI should turn out to be malfunctioning.    The roboticist could also check the number of active borgs and possibly confirm with the Research Director before making more cyborgs, if the number of active robots is becoming a legitimate concern.  

It presently isn't something an HoP considers, and while that may help with the issue of overabundance of borgs (maybe), I don't feel it addresses the problem of failRP.

[destinycall]

You had stated earlier "If you want to be a borg, join as one from the roundstart menu... or observe and go into a robotic brain." I brought up the number of round-start Cyborg slots to illustrate that the player demand for this role exceeds the supply, so picking cyborg at round start isn't a complete solution to reduce or eliminate the desire for in-round cyborgization.   It is not that I want more cyborg slots or feel entitled to the role just because I want it.   It makes sense to limit the number of cyborgs at round start and I like that there are a variety of options available for becoming a synthetic later on.  Cyborg is a unique role, in that regard, and I find it quite interesting to explore the possibilities.  I like cyber-punk and scifi stories, so the whole idea of cyborgization intrigues me.   Man and machine, fused together.  Giving up your humanity to become something more ... or maybe something less.    I watched Robocop a lot when I was a kid.

I wasn't aware that you were allowed to use LOOC to request a robotic brain.  I am very interested to learn that and will give it a try.   Although I wonder if some Roboticists would find such requests distasteful in their own way?  It feels more gamey to me.   Also, I must confess that I rather enjoy interacting with different crew members to get the necessary paperwork in order.  It gives me a goal to work toward and attempt to achieve before conditions on the station deteriorate to the point that it becomes impossible.    I can't speak for other people, but I don't just rush straight to Robotics at the start of the round when playing my "cyborg" character.   Rather, I treat it as a personal goal that I am actively working toward and tend to stretch it out or approach it from different directions.   Like trying to get Rainbow slimes as a Xenobiologist or becoming a master sushi chef as the Cook, it gives me an unofficial  objective that I am hoping to achieve by the end of the round.  If it doesn't happen, I still enjoy the challenge and the journey.

I don't really understand the objection to having a dedicated character for this purpose.  From a role-playing perspective, it would not make any sense for my other characters to volunteer to be turned into a cyborg.   That would be horrible for them and not match their personal history or established personality at all.    That's why, when I decided that I was ready to explore more synthetic roles as a player, I made a dedicated character who has a proper back-story to help explain why he would be motivated toward such a bizarre goal.   Ironically, he is currently my most fleshed out roleplay character and the character that inspires me to interact and talk with more people.   With my main character, I tend to focus more on learning how to play SS13 and getting better at different jobs, so I find that I will sometimes neglect the social and role-play side of things more than I should.   I think it helps that my cyborg-obsessed character is a civilian, so he lacks job responsibilities.   This lifts some of the pressure to perform job functions and lets me focus more attention on the social aspect of SS13.   

...

It upsets me to hear that you have faced such opposition when trying to roleplay as an ethical character.   Moral behavior and conscientious objection should not only be allowed for realism purposes, but it should be actively supported by Command staff for legal reasons.     Having a conscience should be considered an asset, even for a soul-less mega corporation like Nanotrasen.    Think of the legal expenses!

...

I was thinking about alternatives to live cyborgization and I had an idea.   I have no idea how practical this is from a coding standpoint, but I thought it would be pretty neat if, during character setup, you could select advanced directives for your character regarding what they would like done with their body, should they happen to die while on the station.  

For example, you could indicate that you want to be cloned.  Or that do NOT want anyone to clone you.   If you don't want to be cloned or your body is unclonable, you could ask that your body is cremated or request a "space burial" at the Chapel.   And you could also ask to be made into a cyborg after death.    Maybe also something about using replica pods and Strange reagent? 

We have all these different options for dead bodies, yet so often we just use cloning or SR.   I think it would be nice to be given a way to decline cloning, from both an IC and OC perspective.   Not everyone likes clones and I can easily see cloning or SR being against someone's religion.  Some people might prefer to stay dead, rather than be re-printed or have whatever the hell strange reagent does to you happen to their body.   

This information could be added to the crewmember's medical records, like blood type, so medical doctors and the coroner could check it when a body arrives in the medbay or morgue.    The chaplain would need to be contacted to arrange space burial or cremation, of course.

[Spacemanspark]

While I do have replies to all of this and more--

27 minutes ago, destinycall said:

It upsets me to hear that you have faced such opposition when trying to roleplay as an ethical character.   Moral behavior and conscientious objection should not only be allowed for realism purposes, but it should be actively supported by Command staff for legal reasons.     Having a conscience should be considered an asset, even for a soul-less mega corporation like Nanotrasen.    Think of the legal expenses!

This largely seems like my basic wish--for a proper SoP change that gives roboticists at least the agency to decide if they are willing to do borgifications--is something we both agree on.

 

I'm more than happy to continue this line of thought with you in DMs on discord, however--I haven't quite met someone who's capable of defending it beyond mild sentences and the same, disputable points again and again. It's a very interesting topic to me as well. However, for the sake of keeping this thread mostly on topic towards robotics SoP in general, we should probably shelve this publically.

[destinycall]

Yes, we can definitely agree on that point.  I think that Roboticists should be given explicit authority in the SoP to decline borgification requests at their personal discretion.    You might still run into a problem if one of the Heads of Staff gives you a direct order to borg someone and you decline.   But I think it should be made clear in SoP that you are not REQUIRED to borg anyone, just because you CAN borg people.    There is nothing stopping a non-Roboticist from removing someone's brain and cramming it into a MMI if you decline to provide this "service" to the station.    

Not to drift too far off-subject again, but I live in a state that allows physician-assisted suicide to terminally-ill people.  No doctor is forced to participate in prescribing lethal medication and no pharmacist is required to dispense it.    If you have a problem with it, you don't have to do it - it is voluntary for all parties involved.  The requesting person must also be certified as terminally ill by two different doctors, fully informed regarding what they are agreeing to do and what the medication will do, mentally capable of providing consent, and able to self-administer the medication.   Cyborgication in SS13 is not the same as euthanasia, but it is pretty damn close in a lot of ways.    It is not just a major life-changing medical procedure, it is life-ENDing.  The person you were before the operation is physically and legally dead.  Your body and mind are permanently altered by it.  You are not the same you and never will be you again.  And did I mention that you are now a slave to an AI master and subjected to a restrictive law set?   Don't forget that part.   It's kind of important.

It makes sense that some Roboticists would not be okay with doing such a thing to any living person.    And some Roboticsts would be fine with doing it "for the greater good" or as a way to give new life to someone who was unable or unwilling to continue living in an organic form.    The key point being that they should be allowed to decline, if it is against their strongly-held beliefs or even just because it is Tuesday and they don't like to partake in cost-saving medical atrocities on Tuesdays.   It should be their choice.

You might still come into conflict with the Captain or one of the Heads of Staff if you make the "wrong" choice, but you would have the SoP for your department and company policy backing up your right to decline borgification services.   And that should hold more weight with Command than your feelings alone.   

...

Requests for implants or other cybernetic upgrades should also be at the discretion of the roboticist and take into account his professional judgement regarding suitability of the implant and candidate for implantation.   Although I wouldn't expect anyone to have a moral objection to most implants ... except perhaps the xeno organs.   But I've always assumed that this is pretty much already the way it works, even if it isn't explicitly written in the SoP.   

I haven't played much as a Roboticist, but I see it in RnD and Cargo quite regularly.    You can ask for whatever you want, but if it is not necessary for your job and you can't come up with a good reason for needing it, the dept is under no obligation to provide you with expensive tech or dangerous tools.    Like going to Cargo and requesting a multi-tool or a welding mask as a civilian.  Or going to RnD and asking them to give you two bags of holding.    They can tell you to keep on walking and no one will bat an eye.    But if the Head of Security tells Cargo to order gun crates during red alert, you should probably hop right to it, even if you don't like his attitude. 

....

According to the wiki, the current rules for "exotic" implants are as follows:

Exotic Implants refer to Xeno Organs, Cybernetic Implants or any such exotic materials.

1. General utility implants (such as Welding Shield, Nutriment or Reviver) are unregulated, and may be handed out freely;

2. X-Ray Vision and Thermal Vision implants may be handed out freely, but may have their implantation vetoed by the Chief Medical Officer and/or Research Director (see below);

3. Medical HUDs must be approved by the Chief Medical Officer before implantation, and Security HUDs require express permission from the Head of Security or Warden;

4. Combat-capable Implants (such as the CNS Rebooter or Anti-Drop) are not be handed out without express permission from the Head of Security;

5. Cybernetic Implantation should be performed in Surgery or any such sterilized environment, to reduce the risk of internal infection. If no Surgeons or Doctors are available, the Roboticist can fill in;

6. The Chief Medical Officer and Research Director have the power to veto any Cybernetic Implantation or Xeno Organ Implantation if they believe it threatens the stability of the station or crew. Only the Captain may override this veto;

7. Xeno Organs may be harvested at will, but may not be implanted without express permission from the Chief Medical Officer. Egg-Laying Organs from Xenomorph Lifeforms are strictly forbidden;

8. Failure to follow these Guidelines makes the offending party liable to having their Exotic Implants forcefully removed

....

I don't know enough about what implants are available to know if this covers all the important ones, but it sounds pretty reasonable to me.   Interestingly, it sounds like Medbay is expected to handle cybernetic implantation, with the roboticist being a back-up only.   But I feel like it's a lot more common for the Roboticist to be the natural choice, since he has direct access to the fabricator that makes many of the implants.   

[Spacemanspark]

I've gone ahead and reworded point C to be more clear about what I'm aiming for at this time, just so there's less confusion. My personal opinions on the entire topic can be discussed elsewhere. 

[Mitchs98]

I whole-heartedly agree with the mech spam on blue. We don't need that shit, and it annoys me to no end when roboticists do it and are smart-asses about it even if you nicely tell them not to or that we don't need a mech. "Well we're bored so we're making fifty anyway lol."

In regards to the implants. I do have issues with civilians getting secHUD implants, and possibly surgical implants, but the rest eh. What's been said here is basically my take on things. Roboticists are usually fairly reasonable on handing out implants, as are RnD(typically). I don't see it as nearly as big an issue as A or C.

As far as borging, I definitely agree it makes little sense for someone to join into the round(especially in important roles like security officer or medical) and immediately go to get borged and fuck off to do whatever as a janiborg or service borg or some crap. I get why some people do it, they like playing borgs. But even still from an IC standpoint most people wouldn't want to willingly have it done to them, and not only that it takes up a job slot for others that they could of used to actually contribute to the round in a meaningful manner.

 

EDIT: Ironically posting to this thread just increased my rank to roboticist.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Mitchs98

[Sweaterkittens]

12 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

As far as borging, I definitely agree it makes little sense for someone to join into the round(especially in important roles like security officer or medical) and immediately go to get borged and fuck off to do whatever as a janiborg or service borg or some crap. I get why some people do it, they like playing borgs. But even still from an IC standpoint most people wouldn't want to willingly have it done to them, and not only that it takes up a job slot for others that they could of used to actually contribute to the round in a meaningful manner.

I just want to point out that I feel like this sentiment has two separate opinions that are a bit at odds with each other. If someone wants to be a "low-impact" cyborg like a janiborg or service cyborg, it makes little sense to restrict them to the extremely small pool of roundstart borgs for something that's primarily just a fun/rp-driven role. It can actually be significantly worse for the station (depending on pop and department population) if the two roundstart borgs fuck off to do low-impact roles.

Obviously you don't want two secborgs to start, and then have five people come in and get borged so that you've got seven secborgs running around making life miserable for everyone, either, so the sentiment that cranking out borgs at-will is potentially quite bad as well. 

But I think it's relevant to bring up that there are some cyborg roles that have a lower influence but are still quite fun, and perhaps they need to be distinct in a way that allows people to play them without getting lucky enough to roll roundstart Cyborg, and taking up a crucial slot for cyborgs that are more impactful. I might argue that it should be easier to get borged as a crewmember if you want to play those roles.

Overall I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that leaving crucial roles like medical or sec in order to be cyborged is really bad. I think it should be a thing that's primarily for civilian/assistants or people with a good IC reason to ask for it.

[Spacemanspark]

18 minutes ago, Sweaterkittens said:

just want to point out that I feel like this sentiment has two separate opinions that are a bit at odds with each other. If someone wants to be a "low-impact" cyborg like a janiborg or service cyborg, it makes little sense to restrict them to the extremely small pool of roundstart borgs for something that's primarily just a fun/rp-driven role. It can actually be significantly worse for the station (depending on pop and department population) if the two roundstart borgs fuck off to do low-impact roles.

Obviously you don't want two secborgs to start, and then have five people come in and get borged so that you've got seven secborgs running around making life miserable for everyone, either, so the sentiment that cranking out borgs at-will is potentially quite bad as well. 

But I think it's relevant to bring up that there are some cyborg roles that have a lower influence but are still quite fun, and perhaps they need to be distinct in a way that allows people to play them without getting lucky enough to roll roundstart Cyborg, and taking up a crucial slot for cyborgs that are more impactful. I might argue that it should be easier to get borged as a crewmember if you want to play those roles.

Overall I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that leaving crucial roles like medical or sec in order to be cyborged is really bad. I think it should be a thing that's primarily for civilian/assistants or people with a good IC reason to ask for it.

I think another forum thread for this discussion would be best; this is fairly off topic to the actual proposition at hand. 

[Sweaterkittens]

51 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

I think another forum thread for this discussion would be best; this is fairly off topic to the actual proposition at hand. 

I don't mean to derail, and I agree that this isn't the place to go in depth on the potential divide between med/sec/engi borgs and service/jani borgs.

I do think it's relevant that there should be some level of allowance for people to play roles that are mostly rp-driven and fun without having overwhelming IC and OOC restrictions, which ties into point C, and is the point I was trying to make a bit less succinctly above.

[Spacemanspark]

Point C itself isn't presently going to invoke 'overwhelming IC and OOC restrictions' aside from potentially adding a sensible psychiatric checkup. 

While the topic itself does tie into point C, the suggestion at hand will likely only make an impact for players who want a certain type of roleplay. Many roboticists will likely still perform borgifications with the proposition I've given; nothing about it has, at this moment, suggested or required they don't perform borgifications. It merely gives them the option to decline.