Xenomorph Rework

[VynalDerp]

Heyo! I've started some basic work on a rework for Xenomorphs. I thoroughly enjoy the setting, and enjoy other servers with Xenomorphs like CM. Was sad to see them not in Paradise. Since they're still in the code, I've decided to learn coding SS13 and see if I can eventually get them reintroduced as antags. I'm also posting this to get feedback on the sort of changes I've made to Xenomorphs so far.

One problem. Uh, I've never played as them before. What's broken about them? What sort of fixes would you propose? Are Xenos unrecoverably broken? Do you have any ideas on how they should function in-game (Stealth playstyle or loud)? Are you attracted to the Queen? 

I've also made a discord thread to discuss this sort of thing as well if you wish to stop by it and see what sort of things people have been discussing. It's in the #spacestation_13 channel.

I'll also be keeping an updated list of changes, current, planned, and possibly also dropped changes here in spoilers for quick reference. May add these to a google doc once I get a more refined idea as to what exactly the best overarching design philosophy to gear Xenos toward should be.

 

Github: https://github.com/VynalDerp/Paradise/tree/Xenomorph-Reowrk

Google Design Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uzpluf2qixaJd1-IM6XPMV5n-pTgphvNGnZG71160jc/edit?usp=sharing

HackMD Design Doc: https://hackmd.io/@VynalDerp/rJBVbg6Z9

 

Current Changes

Spoiler

Changed the Xenomorph stun to a random chance based off of the armor you are wearing on the torso. The check is then multiplied by 15%. It is capped at a maximum 60% success chance, and a minimum 20% success chance. If that fails, rolls for a 30% disarm chance. The stun itself has been reduced in length. Easily adjustable for quick balancing.

Doubled the Hunter Leap cooldown, and weakened it's stun. Added Leap cooldown to missed leaps and shieldblocked leaps.

Reduced Hunter speed to the same as other Xenos.

Reduced stun received from Hunter leap, as well as the Hunter's stun from blocked leaps.

Removed gibbing upon burst. Kills player instantly.

Facehuggers are only carriable by Drones, Queens, Empresses, and regular races.

Added 30% damage resistance to all Brute damage sources.

 

Planned Changes

Spoiler

Make facehuggers only carriable by Drones/Queens.

Slow down Hunter speed. (Possibly also reduce Stalk plasma drain, unsure.)

Reduce Hunter and Sentinel speed. (May reduce Xeno speed across the board to be in line with humans. Unsure, needs testing.)

Allow Queen to watch other Xenos, similar to Terror Spiders and/or CM.

Reduce nesting breakout time from 2 minutes to 1 minute.

Remove gibbing upon burst.

Rework Sentinel spit to be a projectile not limited by your direction of movement.

Add Praetorian and/or Empress as possible Xeno evolutions.

Add doors to Xeno build menu.

Increase Xeno damage resistance and/or buff their health.

Rework Xenomorph corrosive acid.

Add a tail lash ability.

Fix which masks can block facehuggers and which cannot.

Fix mechs being (seemingly) immune to acid.

 

Suggested Changes

Spoiler

Add RTS Mechanics to Queen.

Give Drones X-Ray Vision instead of Thermal view, but reduce speed slightly.

Add a hive core Xenos must defend.

Weaken Xenos, and add multiburst.

Add Xeno tail stab ability from vent openings.

Give Facehuggers the ability to search through vents for victims.

Make Xenos highly resistant to brute damage

Increase damage Xenos deal.

Give Xenos the ability to swipe at multiple opponents at once.

Make Xenos mobility focused around speeding up themselves or slowing down opponents.

Reduce egg maturity time.

Add leap functionality to facehugger AI.

Allow Xenomorphs to be able to pick up and eat demon hearts.

Edit: I've opened a PR for my changes. It can be found here: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/16619

Edit edit: PR close for now.

Edited March 16, 2022 by VynalDerp
updooting planned/current changes

[Spacemanspark]

The issue with xenomorphs is that is basically takes everything bad about the instant stun system and puts it into one mob. When I first began playing SS13, I used to love xenomorphs, but the changes they received over time were... ridiculous, to say the least. Hunters alone are capable of stunning nearly everything in the damn game, at both close and long ranged distances.

While I am in favor of difficult game mechanics by all means, I think it's a bit much--yet, it's become a requirement for xenos in order to get anywhere, for the most part. Terrors are much better, in this regard. They're powerful, easily capable of taking a few hits and decimating people--but they're slow and rely on traps such as webs, or guerilla strategies for their victims until they have sufficient numbers. They're a lot more interesting to fight or deal with as a result.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Spacemanspark

[Viz]

1 hour ago, VynalDerp said:

Uh, I've never played as them before. What's broken about them?

As Spark said, it's mostly the instant stuns. We as a server are supposed to be moving away from a stun-based combat, so replacing it with stamina damage would probably be better, and allow people to fight back. They also sorta have no way of dealing with mechs.

Also, xenos shouldn't gib you, just break your chest and kill you. Terror spiders have shown us with great clarity that you don't need to permakill people to make them play the antag. And with our current pop that shit gets SNATCHED UP by ghosts.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Woje
oh yeah they also gib wtf

[Pckables]

You also need to consider how xeno's are going to handle escalation.
The thing about their instant guaranteed stuns is that it's all they have against crew with guns and shields, because xenos are mechanically overly simplistic.

Sentinels/queens have spit, but the other two have nothing.

So what should each type of xeno be doing when crew are fully armed with lasers and shields and all the vents have been welded?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Pckables

[destinycall]

What are the different types of xenos?  I am not familiar with them on Paradise, other than Gold slime spawns.

Edited August 21, 2021 by destinycall

[Pckables]

10 minutes ago, destinycall said:

What are the different types of xenos?  I am not familiar with them on Paradise, other than Gold slime spawns.

Drone (Can build walls, membranes, and nests. Can evolve into queens if there isnt one already)
Hunter (Fast moving, can regurgitate people they eat.)
Sentinel (Can spit acid that stuns. Can also melt adjactent items/people with acid.)
Queen (Drone and Sentinel abilities, but can also lay eggs. Can't ventcrawl).

[VynalDerp]

13 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

The issue with xenomorphs is that is basically takes everything bad about the instant stun system and puts it into one mob... 

...Hunters alone are capable of stunning nearly everything in the damn game, at both close and long ranged distances.

12 hours ago, Woje said:

As Spark said, it's mostly the instant stuns. We as a server are supposed to be moving away from a stun-based combat, so replacing it with stamina damage would probably be better, and allow people to fight back...

...Also, xenos shouldn't gib you, just break your chest and kill you...

Well, if you check the current and planned changes spoiler section you can see I've already changed the Xeno stuns to be much fairer, and am already planning on removing Xeno gib. Stamina damage sounds interesting but I don't exactly know how stamina damage functions, and no other tackle intent in the game (to my knowledge) uses stamina damage instead of a stun (most tackles use the weaken effect, which may be stamina damage but I am unsure. If it is, then I've changed the code to use Weaken instead of Paralyze effect.) The primary issue from what I understand is the frequency of you getting stunned, that being 100% as it currently is on Paradise right now.

I'm still toying with how exactly the mechanic should work, should it factor in all armor, or just the armor of targeted limb? If it's just the targeted limb, then what armors cover limbs? Are they available enough for it to not be imbalanced? I don't know, never played Security so I don't know if Sec armor counts as covering limbs. I don't know if Cargo can reasonably order armor for crew that covers limbs, either. It could be completely broken, and my lack of experience in those departments makes it hard for me to come up with a good solution. I need feedback on my changes too, pls gib.

 

7 hours ago, Pckables said:

You also need to consider how xeno's are going to handle escalation.
The thing about their instant guaranteed stuns is that it's all they have against crew with guns and shields, because xenos are mechanically overly simplistic.

Sentinels/queens have spit, but the other two have nothing.

So what should each type of xeno be doing when crew are fully armed with lasers and shields and all the vents have been welded?

This is a question I don't really have a good answer to. I'm not sure if the speed or raw damage of Xenos is enough to make up for shortcomings in abilities late-round. I would need to play them to be sure.

I was considering having the Praetorian be an evolution from Sentinel/Hunter and be a more combat-focused class which is more powerful on the battlefield and could fight a crew armed with lasers and shields, and was either unable to ventcrawl or break vents similar to Brown terrors. I was also considering making the Queen be able to evolve into an Empress with a similar role, albiet maybe a bit more powerful.

That said, by the time crew are able to get fully kitted, are there enough xenos for it not to matter? Would they outnumber crew by that point? One of the suggestions I got was to make Xenos overall weaker but simply give them more Xenos, such as multibursts. That way numbers could overcome a late-game crew that's fully kitted out.

Personally, I used to play CM quite frequently and the best way I would see Xenos working is via skirmishing with crew. Not taking on 4 or 5 crew at the same time like CM does these days, but more similarly to how they played in the past - there is a general battlefield, and Xenos and crew fight a tug-of-war over it. But, in CM, quickly ventcrawling to get behind enemy lines and wreak havoc wasn't an option. You could sneak past the enemy, but it was hard and extremely risky, often taking a lot of time. Compare this to Paradise where there are vents pretty much everywhere that Xenos can use to flee, and possibly even take a short space walk to get away. Would such a strategy work, and if so, what would be the best way to implement it?

2 hours ago, Pckables said:

Drone (Can build walls, membranes, and nests. Can evolve into queens if there isnt one already)
Hunter (Fast moving, can regurgitate people they eat.)
Sentinel (Can spit acid that stuns. Can also melt adjactent items/people with acid.)
Queen (Drone and Sentinel abilities, but can also lay eggs. Can't ventcrawl).

All Xenos can vore people and regurgitate them. Drones can melt adjacent items and people alongside of Sentinel as well. Can possibly change that in the rework though.

[Machofish]

I'll weigh in similarly to what I've said in the discord thread for xenos.

Firstly, the thing with player-controlled xenomorph infestations is that the winner tends to be decided rather early on. I've both successfully coordinated the purging of Xeno infestations on Paradise playing as HoS and also led successful Paradise xeno hives as Xeno Queen before. In the initial 10-15 minutes of the xeno queen's nest being found, the big question is whether the crew are able to mount a competent response or not. In that early stage, security can count on a significant advantage in numbers that can usually outweigh any insta-stun cheesiness from the 2-3 xenomorphs defending the queen. Past that point, if security's first wave fails or if security is too braindead to organize a wave at all, then the xenos are basically guaranteed to spiral out of control. The way to win as Xeno Queen is to know how people behave and do things they won't expect: hiding facehuggers in maint far away from any weeds or other signs of xeno infestation can get you a few easy infections. As a starting hunter, you don't have to bother fully abducting crew into the nest, you can just run around medbay throwing facehuggers at everyone: medbay is rarely competent enough to perform embryo removal surgeries faster than you can spam out facehuggers.

10 hours ago, Pckables said:

You also need to consider how xeno's are going to handle escalation.
The thing about their instant guaranteed stuns is that it's all they have against crew with guns and shields, because xenos are mechanically overly simplistic.

Sentinels/queens have spit, but the other two have nothing.

So what should each type of xeno be doing when crew are fully armed with lasers and shields and all the vents have been welded?

I agree xenomorph drones certainly don't have much use at present: they're backup builders but the thing is that the Queen is really the only one who needs to be building. Sentinels can already lay down nests to restrain facehugged victims and all xeno types can plant xenoweeds, so drones are a bit useless at present. One good suggestion I saw in the discord was that dragging/carrying/moving hatched facehuggers should be limited to the drones and the queen only, which could give drones a bit more use other than twiddling their fingers hoping that the current queen will die.

However, implying that xenomorph hunters 'have nothing' is ridiculous:

• Hunters run faster than a crewmember at full nutrition. If you're playing a hunter and you see a crewmember who isn't armed to fight you, you've already won. They can't defend themselves, can't escape you, they can't run. Even if they have a gun, if you're in an open space like medbay then you can just zip around matrix-dodging their bullets or lasers and then pounce or one-click-stun their butts. I'd say this is also the major reason people find xeno instant stun to be 'unfun'. If a xeno knocks someone down and starts dragging them off, there's no way to save them: this is the case with all other speed boosted antags, too, as gun-armed crew only have a ridiculously tiny window of opportunity to intervene if they see a speedy xenomorph running by with a victim, and the vast majority of firearms are actually incapable of inflicting enough damage within that tiny window of opportunity to accomplish anything, even if you plant all shots on target. Basically, if a xenomorph hunter shows up on-screen and you're playing anything other than security, there's basically nothing you are anyone else can do to save you.
• Hunters have a leap, just in case you're too lazy to dodge bullets by frantically mashing arrow keys. The only hard counter to this is riot shields, but don't worry: even if the HoS is screaming for all officers to carry riot shields, I guarantee you there'll always be swarms of numbskull players who fail to heed this advice. If they have shields, just run up and click on them. It's easy.
• As if the high movement speed and leap weren't enough, hunters also have a stealth mode for ambushing attackers. Toggling 'walk' while standing on xenoweed tiles, as a xenomorph hunter, will make your sprite transparent and obnoxiously hard to spot so long as you've got plasma stored. I've seen hunters single-handedly wreck squads of security officers just by ambushing them from stealth—and I've done this myself as a hunter a couple of times.
  • Ambushing works the best if you set up near other xenomorphs, using the principle of aggro so that approaching officers are too distracted chasing your other xenomorph buddies to notice you hiding around the corner.

Given all of the above, I cannot endorse buffing the xenomorph even further. If players are doing poorly with xeno hunters that's because they're not playing it right.

 

I do, however, want one change made to xenos overall: their melee stun shouldn't work on cyborgs. There's no explanation for why all xenomorphs can perform a fucking Vulcan nerve-pinch to a cyborg that's immune to the crushing pressures of space and immune to all other conventional stuns in the game. The xenomorph cyborg stun actually lasts significantly longer to cyborgs than it does to humans as well, which is monumentally stupid. If you have a security bot trying to harmbaton a xeno while the xeno fights back with harm intent, the xeno would still win. The only reason xenos have that ability to stun cyborgs is due to cyborgs getting a powerful lasergun if science unlocks their combat modules—the solution to that should've been to tone down the cyborg combat laser, not to give xenos a Vulcan nerve-pinch.

[Pckables]

25 minutes ago, Machofish said:

 

However, implying that xenomorph hunters 'have nothing' is ridiculous:

I was referring to hunters after the rework mentioned in the first post, though I think i'm mixing up information that was posted here and some that was posted on the discord.

If they were slowed down and had their stun reduced to a ~50% chance based on armor, on top of another 50% block chance from a riotshield, hunters become VERY weak in the lategame.
On average 4 melee hits to knock down a single armed person, but the hunter can only take maybe 3 standard laser shots.

On paper, hunters needing more hits to knock people down (stamina damage buildup would be more consistent than just %stun chance) would be a lot more fair, but they'd need a health change too, since a glass cannon that isn't strong is just glass.

That is unless the intent is for hunters to be more of a swarm, which in that case would work, but obviously needs the gibbing removed so that xeno numbers arent hardcapped on ungibbed corpses.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Pckables

[VynalDerp]

7 hours ago, Pckables said:

I was referring to hunters after the rework mentioned in the first post, though I think i'm mixing up information that was posted here and some that was posted on the discord.

If they were slowed down and had their stun reduced to a ~50% chance based on armor, on top of another 50% block chance from a riotshield, hunters become VERY weak in the lategame.
On average 4 melee hits to knock down a single armed person, but the hunter can only take maybe 3 standard laser shots.

On paper, hunters needing more hits to knock people down (stamina damage buildup would be more consistent than just %stun chance) would be a lot more fair, but they'd need a health change too, since a glass cannon that isn't strong is just glass.

Just did some testing and Hunters go to crit in 4 laser shots, although 3 takes them to only a couple hit points from crit. It takes about 7 or 8 slashes to drop a person into crit, but it frequently takes more than that to floor them, usually reliant on good IB/Bone breaking RNG. This is towards the torso with security armor. Targeting the head just simply took one less swipe.

If crew gets an armor and weapons rollout I definitely think Hunters would lag behind and nto really be super useful. That said, the Leap ability is still quite good. Riot shields appeared to have a much higher than 50% chance to block (not 100% confirmed it though), so I reduced the stun taken from hitting riot shields by a couple of seconds.

I don't know how to make the stun for each xeno individual at the moment, so I would have to change the stun for all Xenos across the board. At the end of the day that might actually be a smart move, but I think playtesting is necessary on that front to be sure. At the moment, I have refactored the stun to only account for Torso armor, as having it account for all limbs or individual limbs both resulted in broken and easily cheesable solutions. With this, Security armor gives a 60% chance to be sunned while captain's armor gives a 47% to be stunned. I can adjust these values up or down pretty easily too, since what determines it is a multiplier alongside of a min/max value. With my changes, 20% is the minimum value and 60% is the maximum. What's your take on the matter?

Also, I have considered a general health buff for Xenos. They are extremely weak and with speed nerfs they could potentially be very easily dealt with by lasers or other high power weapons.

[VynalDerp]

Just opened a PR for anyone following this thread. Check it out and give feedback if you can. More changes to come in the future (hopefully).

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/16619

[VynalDerp]

I'll ask it here incase anyone didn't see the PR question or Discord question. I've never messed with Byond sprites before, and the sprite that overlays when you have bursted stays there even after being revived. I'm not sure how to remove it.

More importantly. I'm not sure the correct time to remove it, or where in the code that would be best to do - should it be removed whenever you are healed with an automender? Deffibed? Surgery? What does anyone here have to say about it?

[Sweaterkittens]

17 hours ago, VynalDerp said:

I'll ask it here incase anyone didn't see the PR question or Discord question. I've never messed with Byond sprites before, and the sprite that overlays when you have bursted stays there even after being revived. I'm not sure how to remove it.

More importantly. I'm not sure the correct time to remove it, or where in the code that would be best to do - should it be removed whenever you are healed with an automender? Deffibed? Surgery? What does anyone here have to say about it?

In my opinion, it should be identical (and could perhaps be coded this way) to the bloody/mangled overlays you get after experiencing massive damage. That would probably the easiest code-wise, as well making it go away when someone has all of their brute damage removed - because if they're at zero brute damage, it would mean that the gaping hole in their chest had been closed up.

[TheYeetster]

Maybe the speed solution is to make xenos slower on non-weed turfs, That way they have to actually plant weeds to have that super advantage, It would also make sense lore wise that xenos make structures they are good at traversing while prey are not.

I would also like to see CM style resin walls, doors and base building. That's the most fun part about CM, at least for me.

[destinycall]

Ohh I really like that idea, TheYeetster.  It would give xenos a nice homefront advantage while making it more dangerous to "leave the nest".    And it would make traveling into xeno territory feel more scary, since you would know they will be extra fast/strong.

[Viz]

3 hours ago, TheYeetster said:

Maybe the speed solution is to make xenos slower on non-weed turfs, That way they have to actually plant weeds to have that super advantage, It would also make sense lore wise that xenos make structures they are good at traversing while prey are not.

I would also like to see CM style resin walls, doors and base building. That's the most fun part about CM, at least for me.

I agree especially with base building. Xeno nests should be quite defensible I think. Give crew a reason to actually use flamethrowers lol.

[VynalDerp]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:12 PM, Sweaterkittens said:

In my opinion, it should be identical (and could perhaps be coded this way) to the bloody/mangled overlays you get after experiencing massive damage. That would probably the easiest code-wise, as well making it go away when someone has all of their brute damage removed - because if they're at zero brute damage, it would mean that the gaping hole in their chest had been closed up.

I found a good solution just yesterday. Sprites for post-burst already existed, so with some help from Discord we were able to make it so that a bursted sprite applies after you burst, and then disappears whenever you are defibbed. That solution sounds more logical, however it would be a lot more complicated to implement. Now that I actually know how to get rid of an overlay instead of just apply one, that's a great idea to keep in the back of the mind for the future though.

 

19 hours ago, TheYeetster said:

Maybe the speed solution is to make xenos slower on non-weed turfs, That way they have to actually plant weeds to have that super advantage, It would also make sense lore wise that xenos make structures they are good at traversing while prey are not.

I would also like to see CM style resin walls, doors and base building. That's the most fun part about CM, at least for me.

Xenos can already build resin walls and membrane windows. I am considering adding doors for xenos too, as it allows xenos to fortify an area much better without sacrificing the ability to move around. Getting them to work properly might be a bit tricky with how access works, though. 

I actually like the idea for xenos being slower off of weeds, while Crew is slower on weeds. CM has marines move slower on weeds in order to prevent marines from simply wiping xenos out at the start of the round. I believe they used to have Xenos slower off of weeds as well for similar reasons, but last I played on CM, there was no noticeable difference for Xenos on or off of weeds. It's a good idea though.

16 hours ago, Woje said:

I agree especially with base building. Xeno nests should be quite defensible I think. Give crew a reason to actually use flamethrowers lol.

When I played on CM I thoroughly enjoyed using flamethrowers. Giving them an actual purpose versus antags sounds cool, although I don't know if they burn through Xeno weeds. Maybe also let flamethrowers light Xeno walls/doors on fire and burn too. Would give them a genuine purpose versus an antag.

I'm not sure how well recieved that would be, though. Flamethrowers are the cause of a pretty insane amount of salt on CM, and all it really takes is one bad flamethrower blast to put you out of the game. How to balance that and make people happy will be a nightmare, but it could be an interesting nightmare nonetheless.

[VynalDerp]

Hey, with a number of denials on the PR recently, I've come to ask. Do you guys think it would be a better idea to change the PR to a WIP one and wait until all of the planned features are finished before attempting to merge? A lot of criticism levelled at it is the fact that it doesn't change much. I was hoping for a quick PR to get Xenos played more often for more feedback, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. What are you guys' thoughts on the matter?

[Pckables]

5 hours ago, VynalDerp said:

Hey, with a number of denials on the PR recently, I've come to ask. Do you guys think it would be a better idea to change the PR to a WIP one and wait until all of the planned features are finished before attempting to merge? A lot of criticism levelled at it is the fact that it doesn't change much. I was hoping for a quick PR to get Xenos played more often for more feedback, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. What are you guys' thoughts on the matter?

Probably a good idea.
The issue is Xenos isnt that they have one or two minor things wrong with them. Their entire design is either heavily flawed or overshadowed by Terror Spiders, a midround that has had a lot more time and effort put into making them fun and interesting for both sides.

If you want to bring Xenos back as a midround, it's gonna need to go through a HEAVY rework to make it stand out against other midrounds, while still being fun for both the Xenos and Crew to fight.

[Viz]

Seconded. From the get go I assumed this was a full rework, anything less than that is without a point really. 

[VynalDerp]

3 hours ago, Woje said:

Seconded. From the get go I assumed this was a full rework, anything less than that is without a point really. 

It is. The idea was to send PRs in waves, the first being rebalances, second including some reworks, and so on, but since that idea isn't coming through I will be changing the PR to a WIP one shortly and pushing more changes to it.

[VynalDerp]

Hello everyone, I'm finally back. Been through a lot IRL, first my SSD died and my PC was unusable for a few weeks.... then, the day I decided to get back to the rework, I was hospitalized due to a lung collapse. I'm fine now (It was quite a few months ago, so don't worry.) I've got more time on my hands now, so I'm picking back up the Xenomorph project here.

I've wrapped up the final bit of the Xenomorph Rework Deisgn Doc, and I'm looking for more feedback/suggestions on it before posting it to the github. It's still a little incomplete, and I may be adding more to it as I continue updating my code. Please leave a comment on it and let me know what you think. The more feedback the better. Thanks!

Edit: Commenting and suggestions should be enabled for the doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uzpluf2qixaJd1-IM6XPMV5n-pTgphvNGnZG71160jc/edit?usp=sharing

Edited March 8, 2022 by VynalDerp

[Pckables]

A couple topics I'd like to discuss and nail down about reworking Xenos:

- Reproduction and the resulting combat.
As agreed on, we can't have Xenos gib everyone. It means that even if you defeat the Xeno threat, the station is fairly unrecoverable due to a large part of the crew being permadead, and many permadead crew isn't good for the round in general.

So naturally chest-burst humans should leave a corpse, but should Xenos require humans to be ALIVE to be infected still?
If they still need to be alive, this still forces xenos into a stamina/stun focus of combat. The only difference with stamina is that it'd take longer, but the result is the same.

If we want them to still be alive, but still require deadly combat, we can do something such as xenos injecting a Xeno-Specific chem with their attacks. One that causes stamina damage if their health is below 0 (and massive stamina damage if below -50), but also stabilizes them so they don't die before reaching the nest.

Alternatively and more simply, maybe they can just infect corpses that are less than 1 minute old.

[VynalDerp]

1 hour ago, Pckables said:

A couple topics I'd like to discuss and nail down about reworking Xenos:

- Reproduction and the resulting combat.
As agreed on, we can't have Xenos gib everyone. It means that even if you defeat the Xeno threat, the station is fairly unrecoverable due to a large part of the crew being permadead, and many permadead crew isn't good for the round in general.

So naturally chest-burst humans should leave a corpse, but should Xenos require humans to be ALIVE to be infected still?
If they still need to be alive, this still forces xenos into a stamina/stun focus of combat. The only difference with stamina is that it'd take longer, but the result is the same.

If we want them to still be alive, but still require deadly combat, we can do something such as xenos injecting a Xeno-Specific chem with their attacks. One that causes stamina damage if their health is below 0 (and massive stamina damage if below -50), but also stabilizes them so they don't die before reaching the nest.

Alternatively and more simply, maybe they can just infect corpses that are less than 1 minute old.

I do think that humanoids should have to be alive to be infected. If they die mid-gestation of the larva, the larva should stop growing and fail to burst. Requiring the hosts to be alive also gives the hosts the opportunity to fight back and make Xeno life much more difficult. It also gives non-frontline castes (drones/queen) something to do while sentinels/hunters fight. From my experience on CM, this can be very much a fun and interesting mechanic for both Xenos and hosts, although it's difficult to say how this would be received or play on Paradise.

CM actually has answers to this solution. The way CM solves it is by having humanoid creatures inside of nests heal at a slow rate, so intense damage will still kill the host (thus, preventing burst) whereas light or medium damage is generally countered by the nest. Dealing stamina damage to a host through a chemical seems like a bad idea - if they have a large buildup of that chemical, they will have next to no chance for recourse once infected and/or nested (either that or the stamina damage will have to be nerfed into near non-existance). This basically never happens on Paradise (due to quick larva gestation time and long nest breakout time), but you can struggle out of nests as with every other binding/buckle situation. It may be better to reserve the chemical for simply minor heals, and be applied either by non-frontline castes (Drones/Queens) or by the nests themselves. Notably, CM also has a feature that allows larva during the final stage of growth to finish growing, even if the host dies. If it's not satisfactory to just simply have a heal, we can have a crack at implementing that too.

Also, the answer right now is a focus on stamina damage. In general, Paradise has been moving away from hard stun mechanics and with the Xenomorph rework I very much intend to do the same as much as possible. I just reworked the tackle/disarm chance into dealing stamina damage, and have been tweaking the numbers and testing it. It deals stamina damage based off of how much armor the target is wearing, clamped with the minimum value being 10 (10 hits to floor) and the maximum being 30 (3 hits to floor). Subject to change in the near future. At the moment only chest armor is factored but it may be better to factor in all armor worn.

 

Edit: Soon I'll be going into the neurotoxic spit code to rework it to deal stamina damage (and perhaps test a chemical that deals stamina damage over time).

Edited March 7, 2022 by VynalDerp

[lewc]

I'm so happy to see this coming back again! I've been playing a lot of TGMC lately so I'd be really excited to see beno gameplay get the attention it deserves on paradise.

If I may, you might want to try putting your design doc up on hackmd.io. It respects GitHub markdown (even summary tabs and stuff) and can be commented on with threads and stuff, so it might make it easier to review/go through especially for people who don't want to doxx themselves on google docs

Spoiler

 

 

 

I might as well spitball some things here, I'd put them on the doc but I don't have a good anonymous google account. I can definitely move them over if this goes onto hackmd or something.

For a counter to mechs/robots, I feel like we're looking at some creatures that what they lack in damage output make up for in CC. Perhaps it could make sense to adopt the concept of xenos firing non-destructive sticky resin to gum up mechs, slowing them down or slowing down their weapon fire-rate? Crew could possibly burn it off with a welder, lasgun, or flamethrower, a mech won't be able to really solo a hive without literal fire support from (possibly vulnerable) humans. Something like sticky resin traps, too, or perhaps door-like structures that xenos and humanoids can crawl through, would provide some interesting environmental gameplay in the tight confines of the station. 

I really like the idea of giving xenos a speed buff on weeds but making non-hunter xenos as slow as humans off of them, if not a bit slower. Xenos are supposed to be agile, but this gives them a mobility reason to weed everywhere they can. On the topic of speed, hunters could perhaps get a speed boost out of combat, but lose that boost after interacting with something (like dealing damage or trying to drag someone off). I agree that one of the biggest gripes people have with benos is getting stunned and superspeed dragged through the halls back to the nest, and it might be nice to see something addressing that.

Regarding acid, I personally think it makes sense to keep wall-melting acid expensive. Xenos have all of these great movement tools at their disposal and so maybe it would make sense to force them to use them rather than busting down any obstacle in their way. Maybe keep it slow to finally destroy walls, but consistent (only needs one application)?

Lastly, I think there should be some sort of passive, weed-free plasma regen, though it should be very weak to encourage weeding. The regen speed would need to be slow, and perhaps its amount could be capped per xeno to only allow for a base ability. If it's under consideration at all, I feel like it's a necessity that drones be able to at least regen enough plasma to plant weeds. 

 

I really like what you've got cooked up so far otherwise! Can't wait to see what comes out of it, and I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it