A trainee title

[Fourwindbadger]

So i have been thinking (not sure if its been proposed before) but a Trainee title  like as a medic you can select medical doctor, surgeon etc, then a medical intern (this will also apply to other jobs ofc) So that the people who know what they are doing, can see this is a new player (its a lot easier than having to say you are new in the chat every time you try a new role

Security could have cadets for example, scientists can have Intern as well and so on

 

 

[destinycall]

I would love this.   There are many roles that I would like to try, but I find it very intimidating to just "jump in" and try to do my best as a noob.   Medical doctor is especially worrying since there are literally lives on the line.   Security is another one that I don't feel okay just winging it.   I am not confident in my ability to do a decent job and don't want to ruin someone else's round because I failed to act appropriately in the heat of the moment or ask for help when I needed it.

 

A job title that lets others know that I am still learning and might need extra help would lower the barrier to entry enough that I would feel okay taking the chance to learn those more complicated roles.

[punkalope]

I was actually thinking about this the other day! I'm glad someone suggested it before me, haha.

I think it'd make for lots of good RP hooks as well. Its hard to assume a character is new to a job based on their title alone, especially for those of us who aren't regulars and don't want to be rude by accident. It makes nice workplace conversation rp, especially on slower rounds.

[procdrone]

this idea was thoroughly considered in the past, the usual consensus was that people would pick on these people and take advantage of them (in case of antag etc) which wouldn't be much help to their learning experience at all.

[MattTheFicus]

4 hours ago, procdrone said:

this idea was thoroughly considered in the past, the usual consensus was that people would pick on these people and take advantage of them (in case of antag etc) which wouldn't be much help to their learning experience at all.

This is the main issue I see with it. As much as I wish people wouldnt, it would end up like this often enough to be a pain.

[Charliminator]

I don't really agree with matt or procdrone. I don't think an antag is going to examine a sec off mid combat and then chose to go easier on them.

 

I really don't think "smurfing" with this will be a problem

[Krossarn]

1 hour ago, Charliminator said:

I don't really agree with matt or procdrone. I don't think an antag is going to examine a sec off mid combat and then chose to go easier on them.

 

I really don't think "smurfing" with this will be a problem

I second this. 

And if antags want to pick on unexperienced players they would most likley look at the manifest to find those ”new” names anyway.

So an ”unexperienced” title would only benefit those who want to learn and those who want to teach.

I would love to see it.

 

[AffectedArc07]

11 hours ago, procdrone said:

this idea was thoroughly considered in the past, the usual consensus was that people would pick on these people and take advantage of them (in case of antag etc) which wouldn't be much help to their learning experience at all.

This

 

This is why it has been shot down every time it got suggested in the past. The fuckwit antags will target the people with intern, especially if its security. It will also no doubt lead to "I want someone experienced, not an intern". 

[Blessed]

=> assistant

=> hop line

=> transfer job

=> actually talk about what you're doing and ask how to do things

thread over

[Fourwindbadger]

I dont understand why it shouldn't be a thing despite people are worried we will be target by antag? also a decent antag would understand people are a new player (not saying they should be left out of the action, i dont mind antag targets me)

Also whats the difference? I mean If i have to keep saying "sorry im slow im a new medic" Or "hey team im new and in training" Or the antag sees that there is a medic showing me how its done in the chat?

 

I cant see a single reason for why "experienced" titles shouldn't be a thing and if its true what @AffectedArc07 say it will lead to  people who "want someone experienced and not an intern" Then it would happen anyway when im messing around asking for help or looking up the wiki (also had it happened before, and CMO got really annoyed on the person and said that i was a part of the medical team, Yes a new one but a part none the less and he had no doubt that i would be able to for fill my duties and he should understand everyone had been a new doctor at some point)

Those few jobs i know how to do, i always try to keep an eye out on the new guy and it would make it a LOT easier if i could see they where new (and for those of you who like realism, its also realistic that a new employee have a "new employee" tag Or a "intern" tag

 

[MattTheFicus]

11 minutes ago, Fourwindbadger said:

also a decent antag would understand people are a new player (not saying they should be left out of the action, i dont mind antag targets me)

The sad truth is there are a LOT of people who take every opportunity to get ahead when antagging. This means they can and will abuse/rob/kill/etc new players to complete their goals. This just makes getting targeted easier. 

13 minutes ago, Fourwindbadger said:

I cant see a single reason for why "experienced" titles shouldn't be a thing and if its true what @AffectedArc07 say it will lead to  people who "want someone experienced and not an intern"

Egos and thoughts of "Ive been here long, therefor I'm better" have occurred enough to the point where we have people banned for it. Adding more ways to ego-pump seems ehhhhhh in my opinion.

All in all, at the end of the day, the HoP exists for a reason. All these solutions are fixable by a mechanic that already exists (getting your title changed) and just requires a quick chat with the HoP if you so desire.

[Fourwindbadger]

  

1 hour ago, MattTheFicus said:

 

All in all, at the end of the day, the HoP exists for a reason. All these solutions are fixable by a mechanic that already exists (getting your title changed) and just requires a quick chat with the HoP if you so desire.

 

Oh noes instead of submitting my reply it deleted it somehow so my long post wont be as well formulated the 2nd time (really bums me out)

I wont reply to the other parts of what you said since i dont agree its a valid reason why it shouldn't be a part of the game to have a intern like title. if an antag want to be an $ss and annoy new players to get ahead in the game faste, he would have no problems identifying new players since they are usually slower to their job, ask more question.

and people with an ego still have an ego and will show you they are better than you when you ask them for help.

From what i know of the workings of the HoP he is busy doing "god knows what of other things" than having new people come up to him to have their title changed.

And since we already have different titles for the jobs such ad doctor,surgeon etc, i dont understand why its not an option to have a Intern title or something of sorts, to make it easier to get help, heck it might even add a whole new role playing aspect of it, having to deal with "karens" who want a real doctor etc, and since we do like realisme i think it would give a modest boost

 

Dont get me wrong i understand what you are saying about why it shouldnt be a part of it but i still dont think its a reason why it shouldnt be a part of the game since we already have the titles (and from my limited coding experience its just a bunch of text, its not like we get more or less access with titles)

 

Sorry if it wasnt as well formulated but i had trouble remembering exactly what i wrote haha
 

[destinycall]

As others have said, I think the benefits of being identified to other players as "in training" outweigh the downsides.   

From the perspective of a newer player, I am more vulnerable to antagonists because of my limited game-experience, whether they realize I am new or not.   At least if others know I am still learning, they won't assume I can handle a dangerous situation alone.   Without the trainee title, I would still be a liability to my dept due to inexperience and that's a big part of why I avoid even attempting certain jobs.

And yes, there will be some people who will not want my help if it is my first day on the job ... that's okay.   I don't want to give someone sub-optimal service either.  I just want to learn how to do the job right.   Hopefully, one of my co-workers or the dept head will take the time to train me so I will only need to survive as an "intern" for a few rounds.   Being new is a temporary but important stage in your career, even in space.

Considering SS13 is primarily a game about role-playing different jobs, I think a trainee job title fits the theme while also helping new players get into the experience.  It also allows more experienced players to step into the role of trainer or mentor.   I find it very satisfying to teach newer players how to do jobs that I have already learned.   But I don't want to assume someone is new based on their behavior, if they haven't said anything.   This kind of title would serve as an invitation to teach.

Regarding use of the HoP line to change your job title - I do not consider that to be a viable alternative for many newer players.   The trainee job title would be especially useful to players who are inexperienced with SS13 in general.  If you don't know how to play basic roles, then what are the chances you know where the HoP's office is located or how to change your job mid-round?   This option is really only available to more advanced players who already have a decent understanding of basic operations.   It might work okay for more complex job, like Medical or Security, since you should probably wait until you know your way around the station before attempting these jobs.  However, from my own experience, the HoP is a busy person and getting your job changed can easily take half an hour of solid effort, especially if you need to track down a different dept head for approval.   IMO, A trainee title would be much simpler and faster, while achieving the same result.

i really think this would be a worthwhile change that would improve the experience for new and returning players who want to learn their roles better.

[AffectedArc07]

This has been general consensus between leadership since 2020 at least

[Fourwindbadger]

2 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

This has been general consensus between leadership since 2020 at least

wait you have meetings like that? thats really cool !

 

I dont agree with what they said and wrote on here that it will make a bigger target on interns as such, more than there is already (but then again we dont have to agree, but it seems like im not the first one, and it might be a real need since more and more people come up with the suggestion to make an 'intern like' title

[AffectedArc07]

20 minutes ago, Fourwindbadger said:

and it might be a real need since more and more people come up with the suggestion to make an 'intern like' title

More people talking doesn't mean more of a need of something.

 

Take the IPC box argument. That gets bought up multiple times each month, and its the same result each time.

(For those unaware, the result is "No, we are not giving IPCs a full welder and cable coil on roundstart)

[destinycall]

This idea has been raised before and leadership decided that it wouldn't work, but was it ever actually tried in-game?

This is something I have wished was in the game since the first time I joined the server.  I know I am not the only person who would be happy to see it given a trial run.

[AffectedArc07]

47 minutes ago, destinycall said:

but was it ever actually tried in-game?

I cannot speak on behalf of leadership but I can tell you an answer here.

 

"Has it been tried?"

No, because it doesn't need to be, since we already disagree with it. Why would we push for something that none of us agree with? 

disclaimer: none in this context is going off of a sample from when this was discussed. Opinions subject to change. Ts and Cs apply.

[Coolrune206]

I can see why you would want something like this, but there are numerous downsides: some previously touched on, but - 

Antag looking for Sec access, targets Sec Cadet because they know they're likely to be less robust/less likely to be partnered up, etc. Sec Cadet doesn't gain much meaningful experience from this and is likely to get discouraged from playing sec from being targeted.

Player needing surgery enters medbay, sees Junior Doctor and Medical Doctor. Requests surgery from M.D. because he wants a quick surgery, J.D. gets no experience.

Miner goes to RnD, requests usual miner gear from Trainee Scientist. Trainee Scientist takes a few minutes at the console printing things and unga Miner gets upset that his shit isn't immediately printed, demands a "real" scientist over common channel.

Etc etc etc. You might think "Well I'd never do any of these things, I'm respectful of new players and would want them to learn", but the fact of the matter is that opinion is not shared by every single member of this community. A genuinely large portion of the community will take the gamer option where available, the path of least resistance to them, and if that means singling out as a target or deliberately avoiding less experienced players, some players would genuinely take that option.

The current model where all job titles are equivalent does a lot of good. Nobody's learned this game without making some slipups at their jobs, and that's a natural part of the game's flow. If we marked players who were inexperienced or experienced, that would also detract from the uncertainty that SS13 is so good at generating - is that person doing their job recklessly/harmfully still learning, or are they a nefarious traitor? 

If someone's really determined to get themselves marked as a trainee, they can take a 2-5 minute stop at the HoP line at the beginning of the round and get their job name changed. However, I don't really see people having different reactions if a trainee asks them for help learning a task than if just a regular department member were to ask them for help. People with time will still say yes, people who are busy or uncaring will still say no.

[Fourwindbadger]

24 minutes ago, Coolrune206 said:

I can see why you would want something like this, but there are numerous downsides: some previously touched on, but - 

Antag looking for Sec access, targets Sec Cadet because they know they're likely to be less robust/less likely to be partnered up, etc. Sec Cadet doesn't gain much meaningful experience from this and is likely to get discouraged from playing sec from being targeted.

Player needing surgery enters medbay, sees Junior Doctor and Medical Doctor. Requests surgery from M.D. because he wants a quick surgery, J.D. gets no experience.

Miner goes to RnD, requests usual miner gear from Trainee Scientist. Trainee Scientist takes a few minutes at the console printing things and unga Miner gets upset that his shit isn't immediately printed, demands a "real" scientist over common channel.

Etc etc etc. You might think "Well I'd never do any of these things, I'm respectful of new players and would want them to learn", but the fact of the matter is that opinion is not shared by every single member of this community. A genuinely large portion of the community will take the gamer option where available, the path of least resistance to them, and if that means singling out as a target or deliberately avoiding less experienced players, some players would genuinely take that option.

The current model where all job titles are equivalent does a lot of good. Nobody's learned this game without making some slipups at their jobs, and that's a natural part of the game's flow. If we marked players who were inexperienced or experienced, that would also detract from the uncertainty that SS13 is so good at generating - is that person doing their job recklessly/harmfully still learning, or are they a nefarious traitor? 

If someone's really determined to get themselves marked as a trainee, they can take a 2-5 minute stop at the HoP line at the beginning of the round and get their job name changed. However, I don't really see people having different reactions if a trainee asks them for help learning a task than if just a regular department member were to ask them for help. People with time will still say yes, people who are busy or uncaring will still say no.

As i stated previously i see it from your point and understand it, i just dont think it will have the down sides you say it will and it will do more good than bad.

But luckily i dont have to agree with it in order to respect your decision on the matter xD

I have stated my opinion such as many others before me and in this post, and thats all i/we can do !

I'm going to to jump ingame ^^