Admin complaint - Abydos2

[Auce]

Admin(s) Key: Abydos2
Your ckey (Byond username): Auce
Your Discord name (if applicable): Auce (Magnus/Flebe/Gael)

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): Feb 2, ~3 am

Nature of complaint: Clarification, feedback
(Select all that apply: EG - clarification required, misapplication of rules, misconduct, abuse of powers, feedback, other)
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: None but a warning was given

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): Was nearly murdered by an antag, after semi-recovering my character attempted to brig them for execution but collapsed on the way, then I shot them dead. Afterwards admin discussion was unproductive and hostile despite my well intent and attempts to deescalate.

Full description of events: In this round I, along with two other command members, one sec officer and several science staff were attacked in xenobiology by ESC and an accomplice, after a brief firefight I had to drag the blueshield to medbay as we were both dying. I had surgery partially done on my character, and before it was complete I was attacked by a terror spider and forced to flee. I spot ESC, who was the attempted murderer of myself and the others previously mentioned. I eject them from a sleeper and attempt to tell security about their presence and warn the med staff not to revive them, but I am unable to speak due to lung/suffocation damage. I see an assistant dragging them away (who I assumed was the previous accomplice from the situation in xenobiology), so I confront the assistant, attempt to speak to them but am still unable to speak. I drag them back towards the center of medbay and overhear that they are set to execute, so I begin to drag them to the brig. Halfway to the brig I collapse due to crit and am unable to bring them all the way there, so to prevent them from killing more of command and my staff I shoot them with the AEGs that were printed to deal with the spiders. 

After this, I am questioned by Abydos and we have a discussion about why what I did was considered validhunting, and while I disagree with that characterization of the event, I respect their ruling and don't want to contest it. What bothered me was how frank and unwilling to discuss this further with me Abydos was over the adminchat. They flatly refused to explain to me what I should have done differently when asked, accused me of attempting to "admin shop" when I tried to deescalate and speak with someone else and generally made me feel as though I wasn't being heard and wasn't able to get the clarification I needed to prevent this sort of disagreement from happening in the future. 

I'd like if admins were willing to explain disputes like these and have a less confrontational/accusatory attitude and making assumptions about my motivations as both a player and a person in admin discussions. And if do not have the time or patience to do so, to please direct me to where I can get feedback on my questions in a constructive manner. 

[Abydos]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:35 AM, Auce said:

After this, I am questioned by Abydos and we have a discussion about why what I did was considered validhunting, and while I disagree with that characterization of the event, I respect their ruling and don't want to contest it. What bothered me was how frank and unwilling to discuss this further with me Abydos was over the adminchat. They flatly refused to explain to me what I should have done differently when asked, accused me of attempting to "admin shop" when I tried to deescalate and speak with someone else and generally made me feel as though I wasn't being heard and wasn't able to get the clarification I needed to prevent this sort of disagreement from happening in the future. 

This is not at all what had happened and completely untrue.

ESC was following his objectives as an antag, and got into a fight amongst security.. which you got dragged into as it was taking place into science. He is completely justified in being allowed to kill people who interfere with his objectives, you being one of them. When all of you ended up in medical, you spotted ESC being put in a cryo pod.. he got pulled out, found you couldn't talk, so you started taking him to the brig. An assistant spotted you, and attempted to stop you.. when you entered crit, you field executed him on the spot.

 

Spoiler

[2022-02-02T07:50:49] ATTACK: (C.R.I.M.E)(148,112,2) against (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro)(ANTAG)(0,0,0): put into a cryo cell at (148,113,2).

[2022-02-02T07:50:53] SAY: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) (149,111,2):  'bAD'

[2022-02-02T07:50:59] GAME: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) fell unconscious at The Medbay (151,111,2) (/area/medical/medbay2)

[2022-02-02T07:51:13] SAY: (C.R.I.M.E) (150,102,2):  'They tried to walk to vendors.'

[2022-02-02T07:51:27] SAY: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (140,111,2):  'Dont'

[2022-02-02T07:51:28] SAY: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (140,111,2):  'He is'

[2022-02-02T07:51:36] SAY: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (139,112,2):  'Esc is evil'

[2022-02-02T07:51:52] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(133,128,2) against (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro)(ANTAG)(134,128,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 5% blocked

[2022-02-02T07:51:52] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(133,128,2) against (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro)(ANTAG)(134,128,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 5% blocked

[2022-02-02T07:51:53] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(131,128,2) against (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro)(ANTAG)(132,128,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 5% blocked

[2022-02-02T07:51:53] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(129,128,2) against (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro)(ANTAG)(130,128,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 5% blocked

[2022-02-02T07:51:55] EMOTE: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) (128,130,2): Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless...

[2022-02-02T07:52:17] ADMIN: Adminhelp: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro): Non-Antag RD field executed me. - heard by 4 non-AFK admins.

 

Right here, you broke two rules. Validhunting and murder.

Quote

Rule 8: Validhunting

It is only the job of Security to stop Antagonists. If you are not a member of Security, then hunting Antagonists is not something you should be doing. You may not drop your job, or go out of your way, to hunt Antagonists. You may, however, defend yourself or others from Antagonist attack if you happen to witness it;

Intent: This rule was specifically added when there was a pattern of people in science arming to the teeth, then patrolling maint and looking for antags. Chaplains and shaft miners have also been a major problem here, but any role can be guilty of this.

If you want to hunt antags, then there is an entire department for that: security. We attempt to balance things around security and their rules of engagement and equipment. If everyone lynches antags as soon as discovered (especially with the tools available to science, engineering, robotics, lavaland tools, etc), then the game is incredibly difficult for antags.

We don't want a mentality where people are looking to "win" against the antags.

This doesn't mean people shouldn’t defend against, or even not interfere with antags. The key words here are "hunting" and "valid". Non-security should not be hunting for antags. Nor should people be looking specifically for situations where it is "valid" to kill someone.

Rule 7: Self-Antagging

Murder is not acceptable for non-antags. Killing should only be done in extreme self-defense, during an authorized execution, or in any situation Security can employ lethal force. If you wish to murder, or at least seriously injure, someone, Administrator permission is required;

Violence capable of inflicting serious damage to someone, especially anything that places them into a critical state, is reserved for Antagonists. Outside Self-Defense, this kind of violence is not permitted;

Self-defense is allowed to the extent of saving your own life. Putting someone into Critical Condition is considered self-defense only if they attempted to severely hurt/kill you. Preemptively disabling someone, responding with disproportionate force, or hitting someone while they are already down, is not self-defense;

Kicking someone while they are down is not self defence - that’s just vengeance. While a few extra clicks can happen in the heat of combat, rendering someone unable to get back up may be treated as murder. There are no “castle doctrine” or “stand your ground” laws here.

 

 

Myself and 3 other admins were going over it, and I took it upon myself to contact you.

Spoiler

[2022-02-02T07:55:16] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Hey there, mind answering a question?

[2022-02-02T07:55:21] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Sure

[2022-02-02T07:55:34] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): So why did you go to medical, and pull someone out of a cryo pod into the hallway and then lasered them to death?

[2022-02-02T07:55:51] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: ESC nearly murdered myself, the HoS, the blueshield, and officer and the xenobiologist in xeno

[2022-02-02T07:56:06] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I was in serious crit and I was trying to bring him to the brig for execute

[2022-02-02T07:56:12] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: He had an accomplice trying to save him

[2022-02-02T07:56:21] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Are you security?

[2022-02-02T07:56:25] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Who was an assistant, I thought the one holding him there was the assistant who was in xeno

[2022-02-02T07:56:43] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: So I grabbed him trying to get ESC to security because they were dead or dealing with spiders

[2022-02-02T07:56:59] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Shot him when I realized I wasn't gonna make it

[2022-02-02T07:57:15] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Again though, are you Security? Because you were all the way somewhere else when he was in medical, ran all the way there, pulled him out of a cryo pod, someone tried to stop you since he was in crit, and you started field executing him.

[2022-02-02T07:57:26] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I had JUST gotten up from surgery

[2022-02-02T07:57:31] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: From him nearly killing me

[2022-02-02T07:57:37] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): So you were validhunting.

[2022-02-02T07:57:45] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I don't understand

[2022-02-02T07:58:00] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: he put me in surgery

[2022-02-02T07:58:10] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: i woke up, then saw him there in medbay loose, someone trying to res him

[2022-02-02T07:58:11] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): That gives you no right to hop up, and field execute him.

[2022-02-02T07:58:14] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2/: I can't talk

[2022-02-02T07:58:18] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I was unable to speak

[2022-02-02T07:58:20] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): "It is only the job of Security to stop Antagonists. If you are not a member of Security, then hunting Antagonists is not something you should be doing. You may not drop your job, or go out of your way, to hunt Antagonists."

[2022-02-02T07:58:28] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I was not going out of my way to hunt him

[2022-02-02T07:58:43] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: He directly attempted to murder myself, my subordinates and several command

[2022-02-02T07:58:47] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): You literally were, you got up from surgery, ran to the cryo pod, pulled him out, and then field executed him when someone tried to stop you.

[2022-02-02T07:58:52] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: If I could've spoken to security to get him, I would have

[2022-02-02T07:58:54] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): So you are receiving a warning for this.

[2022-02-02T07:59:26] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Can you define for me what would be "not going out of my way" to stop him?

[2022-02-02T07:59:30] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: For the future

[2022-02-02T07:59:42] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Read the rules, and it will explain it.

[2022-02-02T07:59:51] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I have read them thoroughly but I am asking for clarification

[2022-02-02T08:00:04] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): "If you want to hunt antags, then there is an entire department for that: security. We attempt to balance things around security and their rules of engagement and equipment. If everyone lynches antags as soon as discovered (especially with the tools available to science, engineering, robotics, lavaland tools, etc), then the game is incredibly difficult for antags."

 

So that was me giving you two clarifications, one from the main rules themselves, and one from the advanced rules that hold the clarifications. That you field executing an antag is not acceptable or allowed, it breaks our rules. You then asked to talk over discord.

Spoiler

[2022-02-02T08:00:24] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Mind if I talk with you on discord?

[2022-02-02T08:00:28] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): No.

[2022-02-02T08:00:37] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: No you don't mind or no you won't talk on discord?

[2022-02-02T08:01:25] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): I will not talk about a situation over discord, where nothing is logged for references. If you have something to say, you say it here, otherwise, the warning stands. You are the RD.. you are not a member of Security, you may not go out of your way to drag someone out of medical, and field execute him.

[2022-02-02T08:02:24] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Ok, I will seek advice from others. Appreciate your time and I apologize for causing a stir for you

 

You then went to cryo. Previously before this, when you died from the crit, started trying to defend yourself in deadchat, saying the only reason you did it was because Esc was marked as execute.. something you had NO knowledgable about from two things;

1) You had no hud sunglasses or any security eyeware, you had no idea Esc was set to execute

2) This line right here;

On 2/2/2022 at 8:35 AM, Auce said:

overhear that they are set to execute

Only one person made mention of that, and you were unconscious when they said it.

Quote

[2022-02-02T07:51:30] SAY: (Ferro V1) (141,114,2): they are set to execute

[2022-02-02T07:51:30] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(140,111,2) against : Fallen unconscious

 

Spoiler

[2022-02-02T07:53:18] DEADCHAT: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (0,0,0): Esc

[2022-02-02T07:53:22] DEADCHAT: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (143,110,2): You almost killed me in xeno

[2022-02-02T07:53:27] DEADCHAT: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (142,110,2): You were set to execute

[2022-02-02T07:53:28] DEADCHAT: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) (140,113,2): I was in cuffs, my dude.

[2022-02-02T07:53:34] DEADCHAT: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (141,109,2): you hit me with your desword

[2022-02-02T07:53:34] DEADCHAT: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) (138,111,2): I was in cuffs the whole time.

[2022-02-02T07:53:35] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (140,107,2): You have zero right to shoot someone to death as RD.

[2022-02-02T07:53:37] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (140,107,2): Period.

[2022-02-02T07:53:40] DEADCHAT: (Braxton Kemerer) (138,111,2): RD isn't security

[2022-02-02T07:53:50] DEADCHAT: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt) (139,111,2): They were set to execute and the assistant was trying to save them?

[2022-02-02T07:53:55] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (0,0,0): You literally stole them from medbay and shot them to death.

[2022-02-02T07:53:59] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (0,0,0): That's nothing but validhunting.

[2022-02-02T07:54:00] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (0,0,0): Period.

[2022-02-02T07:54:01] DEADCHAT: Exavere (142,105,2): Yikers my guy. 

[2022-02-02T07:54:06] DEADCHAT: (Braxton Kemerer) (138,111,2): RD is not Security

[2022-02-02T07:54:20] DEADCHAT: (Eszke 'ESC' Iskuro) (138,111,2): I am set to "execute", officers were actually trying to arrest me.

[2022-02-02T07:54:42] DEADCHAT: (Moi) (146,106,2): I set Eszke to execute because he could remove his status. Common practice. simple as.

 

After three players also told you that what you did was validhunting, and our convo, you sent in another ahelp. Wanting a conversation with another admin about the whole situation.

Spoiler

[2022-02-02T08:10:34] ADMIN: Adminhelp: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Hey folks, can I have a conversation with one of you re: this round? I'm cryoed and ghosted - heard by 4 non-AFK admins.

[2022-02-02T08:11:08] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): If this is about the situation earlier, no. You've been given your warning, now you are trying to admin hop to find an answer you seek.

[2022-02-02T08:11:51] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Abydos, as I said before I just want to know what should have been done differently

[2022-02-02T08:12:02] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Tell Security, and let them handle it.

[2022-02-02T08:12:07] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I was unable to speak

[2022-02-02T08:12:26] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): That gives no justification to pulling someone out of a CRYO pod, when they are in CRIT, and when you enter crit because you refused to get surgery done, field execute him.

[2022-02-02T08:12:35] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: They were not in a cryo pod, they were in a sleeper

2022-02-02T08:12:53] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): They were in a cryo pod, because I literally see everything that happened to them. They were put in a cryo pod by a medical doctor, you pulled them out.

[2022-02-02T08:12:54] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I didn't refuse to get surgery done, a spider attacked us mid surgery

[2022-02-02T08:13:10] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Where is the cryo pod in medbay???

[2022-02-02T08:13:15] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: They were in a sleeper

[2022-02-02T08:14:04] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): "02:01:15 Defense (Eszke "ESC" Iskuro)(?)(A) (FLW) (-92.4212: 51 - 0 - 0 - 141.421) put into a cryo cell at (148,113,2)."

[2022-02-02T08:14:13] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): "02:02:16 Defense (Eszke "ESC" Iskuro)(?)(A) (FLW) (-744.421: 720 - 0 - 19 - 105.421) Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 5% blocked Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(?) (FLW) (-67: 165 - 2 - 0 - 0) (134,128,2) (JMP)"

[2022-02-02T08:14:22] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Do you have the log for where I pulled them from?

[2022-02-02T08:14:30] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Because it was definitely from the sleeper in medbay

[2022-02-02T08:15:03] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): They were in a cryo pod and were pulled out, you then dragged them and shot them. You are not Security, you are never allowed to murder another player outside of extreme self defense, and that was not self defense. That was murder.

[2022-02-02T08:15:28] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Abydos, I am not like tyring to change anything about what happened, or what you did. I don't have a problem with what you are saying to me

[2022-02-02T08:15:46] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2/: I feel like we need to deescalate. I'm not lying when I said I pulled him out of the sleeper in medbay

[2022-02-02T08:16:11] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: The assistant dragged him to the nanomed plus outside of virology

[2022-02-02T08:16:13] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): If you're saying there's nothing else to change or go over, then there's literally nothing to discuss. You murdered someone, you were warned, that's the end of it.

[2022-02-02T08:16:28] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Ok, like I asked before, can you forward this to a different admin so I can ask them?

[2022-02-02T08:16:32] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): No.

[2022-02-02T08:17:31] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Alright, again I appreciate your time. Not at all satisfied with your lack of engagement and refusal to respond to my asking for clarificaiton but I accept

[2022-02-02T08:17:44] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I will post on the forums and hopefully someone can help me there

[2022-02-02T08:18:01] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): I literally clarified everything to you, including the rules that you broke. Now you are trying to admin hop to find an answer that you are seeking to defend yourself, that's not how it works.

[2022-02-02T08:18:19] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: What do you mean admin hop, I am so confused

[2022-02-02T08:18:32] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I am asking to speak with someone who has the patience to explain to me in detail what I should have done differently

[2022-02-02T08:18:43] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I'm not trying to change what happened or what your ruling was

[2022-02-02T08:18:53] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I want to continue playing on the server without having future incidents

[2022-02-02T08:19:15] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: If you don't have the time or patience to explain it to me, this is fine. I just want to speak with someone who does.

[2022-02-02T08:19:23] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Let me explain once more: You were brought to medical... you were having surgery done, you literally went out of surgery.. terror spider or not, and saw the antag who did the actions to you. Instead of telling Security by PDA, headset or the like, unable to speak or not.. you started dragging them when they were in crit out of medical. When someone else saw you and attempted to stop you, as you were dragging someone DYING away from medical.. you field executed them. You are not security, you had no right murdering another person who was not a threat.

[2022-02-02T08:19:57] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): I've quoted you the rules, and the clarification of those rules.. you are refusing to accept them as answers, and now trying to seek another admin to pick up on something they say, to point and go "The other admin was wrong then". That's not how it works.

[2022-02-02T08:20:01] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I completely disagree that they are not a threat, they had an accomplice and had adrenals in the fight in Xeno. If they got back up they are just as dangerous

[2022-02-02T08:20:16] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Then that is for SECURITY to deal with, NOT the research director.

[2022-02-02T08:20:17] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Why are you assuming I'm after "the other admin was wrong then"?

[2022-02-02T08:20:35] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Abydos, if it is for security to deal with

[2022-02-02T08:20:46] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I attempted to drag them to the brig for their execution that they are labeled for

[2022-02-02T08:20:52] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I couldn't speak to get a sec officer to do it

[2022-02-02T08:21:01] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: And I was dying because of the circumstances

[2022-02-02T08:21:06] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): You didn't even know they were marked for execution, until AFTER, you ghosted and saw the execution. You had no sec huds.

[2022-02-02T08:21:12] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: No, that is not true

[2022-02-02T08:21:21] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: While I was in medbay I heard "they are marked for execution"

[2022-02-02T08:21:37] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): Then Security executes them and deals with them, NOT, you.

[2022-02-02T08:22:12] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): End of discussion, I've explained to you twice now what you did wrong, if you flood ahelps anymore, I will mute you from them for the rest of this round.

[2022-02-02T08:22:15] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Alright. I can see I'm not going to agree with this and that's just how it is unfortunately. Sorry again for causing trouble.

[2022-02-02T08:22:49] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Your characterization of me is completely off the wall again, how was I flooding ahelp? I have done it once since you messaged me initially

[2022-02-02T08:22:58] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: Goodnight

I explained the whole situation time, again, and again.. everytime, you refused to see why you were in the wrong or trying to point to some insane justification as to why you should be allowed to field execute him.

1) If he's set to execute, it was because the Magistrate did it as he had sec hud, which the magistrate confirmed in deadchat.. it is common practice for Security to mark people who are capable of removing their own status, as execute, as only Captain / HoS / Magistrate can remove it. Even if he is truly marked as execute, you do not get to do the sentence, that is for Security.

2) Him being an antag, does not change any of the rules in any fashion, you may not lynch him on the spot which is exactly what you did.

3) You trying to put some "Justification that I was dying so I had to kill him", in a situation that YOU forced. You knew you were dying.. yet you were dragging him to the brig, when someone attempted to stop you, you field executed him.

4) Him being dangerous, changes nothing. Again.. only Security can hunt antags, not the research director. He was not a threat, he was in crit, and medical is allowed to save him to then hand him over to Security.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Abydos

[Auce]

"This is not at all what had happened and completely untrue.

ESC was following his objectives as an antag, and got into a fight amongst security.. which you got dragged into as it was taking place into science. He is completely justified in being allowed to kill people who interfere with his objectives, you being one of them. When all of you ended up in medical, you spotted ESC being put in a cryo pod.. he got pulled out, found you couldn't talk, so you started taking him to the brig. An assistant spotted you, and attempted to stop you.. when you entered crit, you field executed him on the spot." 

I have absolutely no out of character problem with the antagonist trying to murder me. My post did not state this. In the logs you posted you were extremely convinced that I had pulled him out of a cryo pod but now you seem to have changed your view after realizing your mistake here. Your version of events is completely out of order and I find it ludicrous that you assume I'm lying for some reason? What do I possibly have to gain by lying here?

"Right here, you broke two rules. Validhunting and murder."

As I said before, I don't at all dispute the ruling you made on the server. I disagree with the philosophy of your ruling but I recognize that you have authority here.

"So that was me giving you two clarifications, one from the main rules themselves, and one from the advanced rules that hold the clarifications. That you field executing an antag is not acceptable or allowed, it breaks our rules. You then asked to talk over discord."

I asked to talk over discord because I didn't want to disrupt the round any further, if that's not the policy of the team then I accept it, and I logged back into the game once I had ghosted to speak in game as that was the preference of the admin team.

"[2022-02-02T07:58:47] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt): You literally were, you got up from surgery, ran to the cryo pod, pulled him out, and then field executed him when someone tried to stop you."

This is explicitly not an accurate summation of the events. I did not take the antag from the cryo pod, nor did I pull him out. I found an assistant dragging him away and I took him from the assistant who I believed was the accomplice of the antag from the previous fight. In addition: 

"[2022-02-02T07:51:30] SAY: (Ferro V1) (141,114,2): they are set to execute

[2022-02-02T07:51:30] ATTACK: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)(140,111,2) against : Fallen unconscious"

Does this log not EXPLICITLY prove my perspective that I was able to hear the line as it occured BEFORE I fell unconscious? I am extremely confused as to why you insist that I am somehow lying about this point. 

"After three players also told you that what you did was validhunting, and our convo, you sent in another ahelp. Wanting a conversation with another admin about the whole situation."

I asked to speak with the admins again because I wanted to discuss what happened in a civil and non-accusatory manner. I don't know why you chose to respond to my request if you are unable to do so without baseless accusations that are evidently false by your own log posts. 

"I explained the whole situation time, again, and again.. everytime, you refused to see why you were in the wrong or trying to point to some insane justification as to why you should be allowed to field execute him."

No, you treated me with contempt. "You've been given your warning, now you are trying to admin hop to find an answer you seek." What does this quote even mean? I wanted to have a frank out of character discussion of the round with a reasonable adult, and you make it seem like I'm running to the other parent or something to get some illusory chocolate candy or something. 
 
"[2022-02-02T08:18:19] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: What do you mean admin hop, I am so confused

[2022-02-02T08:18:32] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I am asking to speak with someone who has the patience to explain to me in detail what I should have done differently

[2022-02-02T08:18:43] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I'm not trying to change what happened or what your ruling was

[2022-02-02T08:18:53] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: I want to continue playing on the server without having future incidents

[2022-02-02T08:19:15] ADMIN: PM: Auce/(Magnus Von Oberhardt)->Abydos2: If you don't have the time or patience to explain it to me, this is fine. I just want to speak with someone who does."

The reason I posted this complaint is not at ALL because of what happened in the round, Abydos2. It is because of what I felt was an awful customer service experience handling with administration. This post is not a ban or warning appeal. As I stated in the round I just wanted to voice my displeasure with how you handled the situation and failed to be an effective mediator and educator.

[Landerlow]

First of all: Let me clarify that I am posting on behalf of @necaladun, with his permission. Apologies for the delay, life got in the way. 

 

Now, to the point:
 

As you are not against the decision made by Abydos but rather have a complaint about the way you have been treated while in conversation, I shall focus on that.

 

Abydos contacted you with a question. Which you answered. Turns out, you did something wrong, hence, you got warned for it. From what I can see here, Abydos did not treat you with contempt. They were just straight to the point, nothing more.

Abydos explained what you did wrong and that you got warned for it. From what I can see from the logs, you did not like the answer, so indeed, you asked to speak with someone else. While you may not have intended for it to come across as admin-hopping (a bit similar to a 'Dad said no, let's ask mum' scenario), I can see how it did from an admin's point of view.

In-game and on discord, admins have the final say. You can disagree with an admin's decision or ruling and enter a discussion, but an administrator is not obliged to go into a lengthy discussion with you about it whenever you want. There's also the fact that during most rounds, there's no time for that. Many things are happening at once. And even if there are multiple admins online, things are hectic. So the fact that Abydos did not want to go into further discussion or clarification at the time, is understandable.

To give you an example: If you work in customer service, you, as CSR, get a lot of interactions in a day, per hour, etc. A customer usually gets only *one* interaction: with the CSR they're speaking to. There's things to consider, however:
 

1) As a customer, you are doing one thing at a time. You are in an interaction with the employee. The employee, however, may be doing multiple things at once. Having the conversation, checking information meanwhile, perhaps even doing another conversation at the same time, if the customer service is digital. As such, there isn't always time to go into great detail/discussion during your time with the employee. The employee may tell you to send an e-mail (equivalent to the complaint you made here), or will arrange a callback.

2) The second point is: We are not a professional customer service. Yes, admins 'serve' the community. Though they do so, as volunteers. And we're not a professional business. We're a server in the SS13 game universe.

 

Lastly, you asked what you should have done differently. It's actually quite simple. You should not have done anything, really. You should have stuck to your job and let security do theirs. 

Complaint is without merit and can be considered resolved. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Landerlow
Minor formatting edit