Detective's Lethal Revolver

[dafrek]

The detective's revolver was changed somewhat recently in the first combat update PR. This change removed the non-lethal rounds that caused stamina damage and instead loaded the detective's revolver with lethal rounds. While previously you could load the revolver with lethal rounds this came with the risk of the gun blowing up in your face each time it was fired and took more work than just having them at round start.

Personally, I am not a fan of this change as, while the intention of this change was to reduce the amount of det-curity, I have witnessed a lot of detectives still just blasting people with their revolver. And as you can probably guess, for most antags it is a lot worse to be shot by a revolver with lethal rounds versus non-lethal rounds, because of things such as broken bones, internal bleeding, and death. 

 

I would like to hear other people's points of view on this change though as there are probably some good things about this change that I haven't covered, such as more bad detectives getting job-banned for abusing their job?

[Sonador]

I agree that, if the intent was to reduce detectives pursuing threats, the revolver having only lethal ammo will probably have the *opposite* effect. Whereas a detective deciding to pursue threats was always a risk with non-lethal rounds, lethal rounds make that much more viable now.

That said, I'm curious what the reasoning was, and if anyone who was involved could explain or point me at the discussion I'd appreciate it. I heard a lot of second hand chatter among players, but never any official "this is why we changed it."

[S34N]

I agree that since the change we have only seen the revolver ruin more rounds for people, either due to detectives not realising it does lethal damage, or by people who don't seem to care.

Not all admins are on the same page against enforcing against it too, so things become a bit of a muddied mess from a rules standpoint. Note that this is my personal experience and I am not speaking on behalf of the admin team.

Either the change should be reverted, the gun should go, or we make a new tool that takes its place that does not currently exist (temporary proximity tracker? Not super accurate, I don't know just spitballing)

Edited February 6, 2022 by S34N

[Xyd]

I am of the opinion that detcurity has always been a problem, but the lethal revolver just makes it more prominent and noticeable when you are shooting people with lethal rounds vs rubber ones. I don't know why the PR for the introduction of the lethal revolver seemed to imply that having it would lesson detcurity issues, perhaps using the thinking that deadly consequences meets equal consequences for discharging the revolver in situations where it isn't needed. That doesn't solve the mindset some people have playing the role.

I can imagine it is also a very difficult thing to enforce, because sometimes the detective is quite valid in using the revolver and d-chat will still shout DETCURITY simply for the fact they are defending themselves against a lethal threat using lethal rounds. Recently though since I started playing again, definitely seems to be a spike in detcurity moments - that is just observing detectives going into maints on patrol with security or generally acting as another body, going to calls for backup and the like when there's plenty of security around to answer the call (this one i see a lot). That's all without any revolver issues mind you. Could be argued that having a lethal revolver emboldens detectives to do these things - I'm not so sure on that. Again, mindsets that are not being challenged.

There's also odd disparity between the security team and the detective. You have sec with their non-lethal methods that usually remains the case until powered/uncontainable/lethal threats are found, and then you have a security attached role with a lethal revolver. It's an odd mix. I'm not against the lethal revolver, and the feel for having it is very noir, but it was introduced without any real changes to combatting the troublesome detcurity mindset.

It's never going to happen - but one possible mitigating change could be to separate the detective and turn them into a P.I. Making them an actual 'aid/helper' to security rather than part of the department. Denying them access to sec-coms and sec-gear in general, doesn't prevent but does mitigate them joining up with security for the most part, and this should be supported by SOP/LAW changes. Then you can either make the case for a P.I to have rubber bullets or a 'special exemption' to be made for their lethal revolver; with consequences that go with that considering they are not attached to sec-department anymore. Making them a P.I would also open up the role to more rp-opportunities. The downside is rather obvious as it would mean less efficiency when it comes to aiding security and cooperation will have to be initiated by security for the most part. But nothing stops security enlisting the aid of the detective regardless, and the detective will be more encouraged to solve/trace antags the old way that doesn't involve listening to sec-coms and waiting for officers to spot an antag.

Lets face it; lethal revolver or not, detcurity is still an ongoing issue. Their lethal capability has just made them more pronounced now when they do shoot someone. It's a role that is supposed to be a good dose of roleplay backed up by helping security solve crimes, but often than not turns into them patrolling/hunting antags with their pew-pew. If you look at why that mindset is happening rather than the equipment, can probably start tackling the problem.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Xyd

[Rurik]

Beat me to the punch on the thread, I see. Ill try and keep my points concise.

On 2/5/2022 at 11:30 PM, dafrek said:

I would like to hear other people's points of view on this change though as there are probably some good things about this change that I haven't covered, such as more bad detectives getting job-banned for abusing their job?

When I asked around on discord the main two points for the change I saw were as follows:

1) It discourages detcurity via ensuring they only engage proper threats, lest they get jobanned/demoted.

2) The only alternative would be removal.

For point 1), I see the logic, but I don't think it works out in practice. Not all rounds have HoS's like Moi, Malvor, Owen, Bubblegum, etc, who have the conviction to demote one of their own. Even if they do, they sometimes miss things, especially in hectic rounds. Admins are also not all-seeing, and these things aren't always ahelped. Even in my case, when I had plenty of hours on this server, didn't realize when I was illegitimately lethalled and I instead bitched in dchat (as god gamers do) for what I assumed was a valid, but dirty action. Now you can imagine it'd be even less likely for less experienced players to ahelp.

Furthermore, even if it is ahelped and the detective is dealt with, the antag is often still dead or at the very least crippled from IB. While I personally don't mind a "ruined" antag round since there are always more, others feel more strongly on the matter.

For point 2), I agree. Even though I'd prefer getting stunned over getting IB/broken leg, I don't think maintainers would even consider a revert to the previous stun/disabler-like version. I also don't think I could convince anyone of a second alternative, such as locking the revolver in a display case shift start that has to be unlocked via HoS/Warden, etc. And in the end, although I hate detective having a better lethal than anyone else in sec AND on roundstart, I'd prefer that over outright removal. That's what made me question even making a thread like this one, since what would be the point if the alternative is worse than the problem?

Closing points: As it stands, detective has the best lethals in security, given it at roundstart, and can legally carry it at all times. They have more capacity to "ruin" an antag round, valid or invalid, than any other sec member. Currently I fear the detective more than any other sec member for their ability to end a run. But, even so, I'd prefer that over outright removal of the revolver. 

[MattTheFicus]

At the moment, the only reason Security doesnt lethal all armed threats (mind you, this means everything from stunbatons to disablers to sniper rifles) is because there's a group of Security players who self-restrict themselves from doing so. Space Law allows you to lethal all fo these as any Security member (this includes the Detective). This is intended as per Head Admin ruling, so at the moment a Det can kinda just blast away at any threat that falls under the Use of Deadly Force SoP.

Do I agree with this? Absolutely not. I think its monumentally unhealthy for the game. But, unless the Heads want to change anything about it, I'm not going to be bwoinking anyone over using lethals unless its used for zero reason or if theyre doing it indiscriminately (ie lethaling a trespasser) with zero regard toward (the absolutely insanely open-ended) Deadly Force clause.

At the end of the day, we're never going to get an answer that fixes all the issues regarding Antag/Sec interaction. Trying to balance a game that SHOULD be about RP is a headache and a half. The only way the issue is dealt with is if it becomes widespread (ie Security saying "fuck it" and using the Deadly Force clause to maximum effectiveness) or if the Community makes enough of a stink about it AND can convince Leadership that its an issue. That being said, as much as I'd love to go with Option 1 and go full Iron Fist of Justice and lethal all Antags that possess weapons, I'm personally unwilling to ruin the game for a multitude of people just to prove a point that its mega mega mega unhealthy for the game as a whole.

[Carthusia]

I kind of forgot about the change made to the revolver and accidentally blew away a mime last week attempting to STUN him.

Granted SOP WOULD have allowed lethal force as he had a stun baton and had just attacked either the warden or HOS, but i do find it weird how someone on the station who is a support role starts with what I feel is the best weapon that security can get, second only to the auto rifle due to capacity.

 

Id rather have the rubber rounds back, it more or less makes it ballistics disabler with fewer shots  but a bit more oopfh per hit should they require it while still retaining its SS13 coda of references

The detective overall is more or less a direct reference to 2 things: Detective Harry Callaghan "Dirty Harry" with the pistol, while not a .44, its still a revolver and Detective Colombo with their vanilla design and signature trenchcoat.

 

Im fine with the det having their revolver to maintain the reference, i just feel it needs the rubber rounds back.

 

 

[Rurik]

3 hours ago, MattTheFicus said:

Do I agree with this? Absolutely not. I think its monumentally unhealthy for the game. But, unless the Heads want to change anything about it, I'm not going to be bwoinking anyone over using lethals unless its used for zero reason or if theyre doing it indiscriminately (ie lethaling a trespasser) with zero regard toward (the absolutely insanely open-ended) Deadly Force clause.

 

This, paired with S34N said, does leave it in a bit of a muddled situation. Doesn't inspire confidence to bother ahelping if one admin would view one detective lethalling situation as valid and another as invalid. Learning what admins will and wont enforce and checking whose online before ahelping doesn't strike me as a good solution either. But I suppose there isn't much to be done there unless a head decides to step in and make a clear line, and, well I imagine thats easier said than done.

[maxfromsweden]

A bit late to the dinner here but I'll chime in.

From a gameplay design perspective, as others have already mention, why does a support role, not meant for fighting, have a deadly weapon? It makes no sense to me.

Sure, it's a reference to Dirty Harry but.. does anyone want Dirty Harry as a detective on Paradise? The role as it's designed on paradise seems to be directly against this since it's about solving crimes, not fighting, like regular security.

If they need a gun, how about a simple disabler, or a small laser gun like the HoP:s?

I really enjoy playing detective and after not realising the bullets were more deadly, I completely blasted a guy who went into crit and almost died. Now I'm super hesitant to use it even in dangerous situations since I may end someones round. Now, firing it at all is super risky. The anger if you hit a bystander is very real.

If the gun needs to remain in the game for some reason, put it in the armory along with the rest of the lethal weapons.

[Boardwalksky]

I personally am against the detective having a revolver. I can’t think of a good reason for one honestly. They already have a self defense weapon in the form of a tele baton, and I believe they (might) have a flash? While I guess it fits the noire look, it doesn’t make much sense. If the detective *really* needs a self defense weapon, why not go down the route of IAA and give them a flash and laser pointer. Arguably, the detective has a higher chance of getting attacked while scanning things then IAA doing inspections, so i understand why someone would argue that they should have the IAA defense set, but I’m that case, why not just a disabler? Giving a role which isn’t actually an officer a round start lethal? It feels odd 

[Norwest]

More than anything else, the main thing I'd like to see is the Detective separated from Security, and the mindshield removed. No Sec comms, and no guarantee of safety around him - go full Dirty Harry with the guy. With traitor Detectives out and about, I'd support reverting their gun back to rubber bullets without a conversion option, so that it's basically just a disabler with some minor brute damage. However, making the Det a potential threat would do a lot more than exactly which bullets were in his gun, IMO.