Thermite... Problematically Hated AI Cheeser or Okay?

[Zedahktur]

I'll be frank.
I don't like thermite at all, hahah.
Nothing has changed my mind regarding thermite in any way.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy the idea of a flammable chemical that's incredibly easy to produce.
With said chemical being used to quickly break into the already rough designed AI core. Or generally anywhere...

But, sprinkling some bias here, it's incredibly annoying how easy it is to grab some thermite and break into the AI core.
With me favoring the AI role more than any, it's quite unfun to watch someone break through three layers of reinforced walls in a matter of seconds and proceed to quickly either kill or snatch me up due to how easy it is to disable or break the turrets without taking any damage.

Thermite is the reason why I wish the turrets, or at least the core, were... Er... Better.
It's a shame too, because the other turrets are rarely used as it's 100% easier and quicker to just quickly grab a bottle of thermite and break in from the back.
Anyone and their mother can do it.
It's especially awful if it's done by that one lone engineer or scientist who believe you're malf and decided to take matters into their own hands like a nerd.
Then scream "AI MALF" when they get shot by the automated turrets....

This personal gripe aside, I'd still like to hear other's opinions on the one thing I 100% despise;
What do YOU think of thermite?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

[Rurik]

Thermite is ridiculously op since its so easy to make. However, I hate AI's so I'm going to use it anyway. Malf AI's can also end everyone's round (even if they rarely pull it off), so people have less restraint in general towards it. Similar to how veteran sec will treat a syndi going for a steal differently than a hijack syndi that plans to end the shift early.

[Zedahktur]

2 hours ago, Rurik said:

 However, I hate AI's so I'm going to use it anyway.

*scream

[Pckables]

Thermite isn't just a sweet chem that adds 20 stacks of fire to Molotov's by adding just a single unit?

[Generaldonothing]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, Zedahktur said:

I'll be frank.
I don't like thermite at all, hahah.
Nothing has changed my mind regarding thermite in any way.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy the idea of a flammable chemical that's incredibly easy to produce.
With said chemical being used to quickly break into the already rough designed AI core. Or generally anywhere...

But, sprinkling some bias here, it's incredibly annoying how easy it is to grab some thermite and break into the AI core.
With me favoring the AI role more than any, it's quite unfun to watch someone break through three layers of reinforced walls in a matter of seconds and proceed to quickly either kill or snatch me up due to how easy it is to disable or break the turrets without taking any damage.

Thermite is the reason why I wish the turrets, or at least the core, were... Er... Better.
It's a shame too, because the other turrets are rarely used as it's 100% easier and quicker to just quickly grab a bottle of thermite and break in from the back.
Anyone and their mother can do it.
It's especially awful if it's done by that one lone engineer or scientist who believe you're malf and decided to take matters into their own hands like a nerd.
Then scream "AI MALF" when they get shot by the automated turrets....

This personal gripe aside, I'd still like to hear other's opinions on the one thing I 100% despise;
What do YOU think of thermite?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

I hate to use the argument "but there's worse!1!1!" but yes, there is much, much, much, worse area clearing chems than thermite, and encouraging the use of those chems would frankly be a hellish experience. As broken as it truly is, making it a less good option IMO would just cause even more bullshit to occur.

[Zedahktur]

1 hour ago, Generaldonothing said:

I hate to use the argument "but there's worse!1!1!" but yes, there is much, much, much, worse area clearing chems than thermite, and encouraging the use of those chems would frankly be a hellish experience. As broken as it truly is, making it a less good option IMO would just cause even more bullshit to occur.

Don't worry about that argument type!
You bring up an excellent point.
I very much remember an RD who decided to use 5 max caps on me since my laws kept getting changed... Despite carding being a very viable option as a single maxcap immediately destroyed all the turrets.

 

Maybe in the end the AI core chamber, at least on box station, needs some love.

[Generaldonothing]

5 minutes ago, Zedahktur said:

Don't worry about that argument type!
You bring up an excellent point.
I very much remember an RD who decided to use 5 max caps on me since my laws kept getting changed... Despite carding being a very viable option as a single maxcap immediately destroyed all the turrets.

 

Maybe in the end the AI core chamber, at least on box station, needs some love.

Yeah, it really sucks when this stuff happens, I do agree that perhaps some slight alterations to the AI chamber could make it a bit more fun for tot AI and perhaps a bit less easy to cheese your way in to, however this also carries the risk of making an AI steal objective too hard, and perhaps because of that thing need to stay the same mapping wise

[Zedahktur]

11 hours ago, Generaldonothing said:

Yeah, it really sucks when this stuff happens, I do agree that perhaps some slight alterations to the AI chamber could make it a bit more fun for tot AI and perhaps a bit less easy to cheese your way in to, however this also carries the risk of making an AI steal objective too hard, and perhaps because of that thing need to stay the same mapping wise

That's why I always respect attempts at balancing.
You have to take many things into consideration before attempting it.

Make the AI chamber better? Makes stopping malf AI or stealing/killing AI objectives harder.
Make the AI chamber too easy to break into? Clown walks in and turns the core yellow with bananium.

[SpringSkipper]

Thermite is hilariously easy to make, yeah.
The first time I actually tried to use it for a steal objective as a chemist it felt like I was cheating.

Also in general I support making it harder to break into the AI chamber from space.

There are already too many powergamey reasons to sit in space all round as an antag. The armory and AI sat being super easy to access from space just makes it worse.

[BotanyIsCondom]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, Zedahktur said:

But, sprinkling some bias here, it's incredibly annoying how easy it is to [...] break into the AI core.

With me favoring the AI role more than any, it's quite unfun to watch someone break through three layers of reinforced walls in a matter of seconds and proceed to quickly either kill or snatch me up due to how easy it is to disable or break the turrets without taking any damage.

[...] I wish the turrets, or at least the core, were... Er... Better.

 

Breaking into the AI core is more difficult than almost anywhere else on the station, with the upside that random crew probably won't wander by you while you're breaking in through space, and it's a lot harder for security to get to you while you're doing the thing.

I think the problem you have is the same thing a lot of AI players feel. It can feel really really bad when you're totally powerless to stop someone from killing you. You can't robust them, get lucky with disarms, or run away. It's jarring going from being in total control of all of the station to a muted card slowly dying in someone's backpack, or the depths of space. As much as it sucks to die, I think AIs should have a weak point, and the satellite is more than fine as-is. Dying is part of the game. Space Antag is a different issue entirely.

On 2/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, Zedahktur said:

It's especially awful if it's done by that one lone engineer or scientist who believe you're malf and decided to take matters into their own hands like a nerd.
Then scream "AI MALF" when they get shot by the automated turrets....

This really sucks. The fact that the AI is valid to literally everyone even before it starts the doomsday clock when it's malfunctioning means that even when you're not malf, if anyone even gets a whiff, they'll be lining up to round-end you. And God forbid you're actually malfunctioning. Even with how awful stealth antags (stealth TEAM antags if you have cyborgs) are in general, malf AIs have it pretty much the worst, because people will metagame their hijack objective, and treat them as a station threat. It's like if wizard couldn't move, and the only spell was lightning bolt, and you had to wait for 180 seconds to get three charges, and it gave an obvious indicator like you're some kind of MMO boss.

TL;DR Playing AI is just playing as a WoW boss against people who are probably way overlevelled.

[Shadowradar1212]

thermite being appliable in such low quantities is another issue. like... a small beaker and two large ones is enough to melt through half of the station... for spending like, less than a minute in front of a chem machine.

 

compare to this... one, irreplacable telecrystal's worth of C4 for a single Rwall and waiting 10 seconds and being highly conspicious and perma-able... or just greytiding into scichem for a five-ten minute sentencing and being able to level half of the station with two beakers and a welder with minimal risk, and yeeeeeeah. oh no.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Shadowradar1212
few extra points.