Security Objective/Focus

[Auce]

One common theme I have noticed in many of my rounds is that many security players view the round as "Security vs (All the potential criminals and antags)" instead of "Crew (including security) trying to get their jobs done, hindered by antags".

This leads to situations where if you are arrested or brought in to the brig, security will often err on the side of caution and give you a harsher sentence, or even perma/execute you even if evidence is circumstantial. I think this is bad for both innocent/mild criminals and for antags because the officers should really not want to brig/execute people unless they have to. Innocents and mild criminals can have their round ended wrongly, and IMO security officers shouldn't actively want to ruin anyone's round, even if they are an antag. I personally try to go out of my way not to ruin anyone's round, even if I am forced to assassinate them I will try to involve them in the round otherwise if I can. 

I'd like to see some sort of system where the security team is held accountable to the station's productivity points, and officers more encouraged not to err on the side of round-ending other players. In addition I'd really like to see security's SoP modified such that they aren't expected/allowed to just baton+cuff anyone even suspected of crime. People should be allowed to come to the brig willingly, even if only to have a chance at getting a reduced sentence for cooperating. I almost never see security roleplay with someone who has a warrant on them, regardless of alert level. In my experience it is disabler/baton + cuff and drag wordlessly to processing. I don't think this is a fun interaction for anyone, as it encourages people who are antag to murderbone any officer who so much as looks at them, always have anti-stun gear/chems, always have freedom implant/matter eater etc to break free of cuffs. Very repetitive and uninteresting gameplay patterns.

[procdrone]

you say like executing for no reason is a common occurrence which I find extremely dubious, as this almost never happens(at least in my experience). people who die to sec are most often antags on the run AND being lethal/dangerous, or perma inmates, either escaping or being destructive to perma/attacking/harrasing sec.

[Mitchs98]

While, I personally believe that security is supposed to be primarily protecting the crew and enforcing Space Law while not just stopping the big bad and while I am aware there are some pretty shitty officers. I have to say the majority of times that harsh sentences are used are against shitters, self antagging players, people that decided to commit a lot of crime, or antags. A few of these are the same thing. I have yet to see innocents truly get harshly punished all that often when I'm playing, I know it happens...but the very very vast majority of the time it's actually people who did something worthy of it, often people who toe the line of self antagging, or outright aid antags or other criminals for little to no reason.

I have yet to see security commonly execute or round end people for no reason either. I'm also entirely against the idea that security is forced to try to interact with every single non-antag criminal, especially on Red where things are likely already hectic and the criminal getting baton'd and cuffed is just a tider making the round more hectic for everyone. I'd also state that, unless it's amended on Space Law, co-operation isn't really meant to be applied to people that get arrested without a fuss; that's not what that modifier is for.

Security does RP with people with a warrant a lot more than people let on when possible or applicable, especially non-antags. The fact of the matter is the majority of people with warrants, especially non-antags, are just people griefing or otherwise doing really tidey or LRP actions that bring the round down.

Security shouldn't be trying to not arrest people who deserve it, that's entirely counter-intuitive to what Space Law is for; keeping people who otherwise negatively impact the round in a cell. Now, I will say that security should issue warnings more often for certain crimes...but err on the side of not arrest/be afraid to arrest people in fear of some sort of punishment for doing their job? Absolutely not. 

Statistically speaking, and this is from my own personal experience in security and not a dataset, at least ninety percent of arrests on non-antags are people griefing and toeing the line on self antagging; not true petty criminals committing crime in an RP fashion or trying to do something interesting for the round. So, yes, security SHOULD want to brig those people. Brigging them takes them away from people who are trying to RP and enjoy their rounds without someone trying to commit random acts of crime against them for little to no reason.

[Auce]

Mitchs98, my proposal is an "ought" one, not an "is" one. I'm saying I think the existing rules should change.

" I have to say the majority of times that harsh sentences are used are against shitters, self antagging players, people that decided to commit a lot of crime, or antags" I don't think security should be dealing with self antagging players, that's against server rules and should be ahelped right? I'm talking about people who are doing very minor crimes/SoP slipups and are brought in to talk, or people who are innocent/framed and brought in.

"Security does RP with people with a warrant a lot more than people let on when possible or applicable, especially non-antags. The fact of the matter is the majority of people with warrants, especially non-antags, are just people griefing or otherwise doing really tidey or LRP actions that bring the round down." In my ~400 hours of experience now on the server I'd say that the majority of experience roleplaying with a sec officers consists of batong, cuff, processing and then stripping naked (or you doing the same to them if you are robust/feel like gaming). 

 "Security shouldn't be trying to not arrest people who deserve it, that's entirely counter-intuitive to what Space Law is for; keeping people who otherwise negatively impact the round in a cell. Now, I will say that security should issue warnings more often for certain crimes...but err on the side of not arrest/be afraid to arrest people in fear of some sort of punishment for doing their job? Absolutely not. " I think from a gameplay perspective, security should not want to arrest innocent people, and not want to cost the station productivity. I am fine with there being a warrant out on someone for a legitimate reason with evidence, and for force to be used if the perp resists, but there's a reason in real life police officers don't just run up and attack people with tasers/batons without giving them verbal warnings. If the suspect flees or resists obviously they lose this measure of protection.

"Statistically speaking, and this is from my own personal experience in security and not a dataset, at least ninety percent of arrests on non-antags are people griefing and toeing the line on self antagging; not true petty criminals committing crime in an RP fashion or trying to do something interesting for the round. "

The griefers and self-antaggers should be dealt with via ahelp, but I think part of the reason that there aren't many petty criminals is because the culture of this server. The vast majority of criminal stuff is against server rules for non-antags, barring ahelp permission. In addition, I've on more than one occasion seen admins literally play security for them, adminfreezing and bwoinking someone doing something IC illegal but not against server rules. This sort of thing really takes the steam out of the round for both the security people who have nothing to do besides hunt for redtext, and for players with gimmicks or IC grudges/petty feuds with other characters who are unable to play them out for fear of bwoink.

"you say like executing for no reason is a common occurrence..."

Procdrone, I don't understand how you got this notion from my post. I don't believe that people being executed arbitrarily is a common occurance, just that security has every incentive and no disincentive to end an antag's round with perma and/or execution.

[Mitchs98]

41 minutes ago, Auce said:

Mitchs98, my proposal is an "ought" one, not an "is" one. I'm saying I think the existing rules should change.

Didn't say otherwise, at all.

41 minutes ago, Auce said:

In addition, I've on more than one occasion seen admins literally play security for them, adminfreezing and bwoinking someone doing something IC illegal but not against server rules.

If admins are adminfreezing or PMing someone that's doing something illegal IC, they are in-fact breaking server rules by self antagging. I have not once in my entire play time seen admins freeze players for doing something that wasn't against server rules.

41 minutes ago, Auce said:

The griefers and self-antaggers should be dealt with via ahelp, but I think part of the reason that there aren't many petty criminals is because the culture of this server

They are. And there are PLENTY of petty criminals. I'm not sure if it's a timezone thing or what. Though quite frankly there shouldn't be an abundance of petty criminals. It detracts from RP heavily. NT would not hire a bunch of people that constantly break their laws for little reason.

41 minutes ago, Auce said:

This sort of thing really takes the steam out of the round for both the security people who have nothing to do besides hunt for redtext, and for players with gimmicks or IC grudges/petty feuds with other characters who are unable to play them out for fear of bwoink.

You're more than welcome to have gimmicks as well as IC grudges/petty feuds with other characters. Nothing stops you from this. It's when you take things excessively to the point it's obviously metagrudging and not IC that's a problem. People do it all the time, to myself and others. I do the same. What you're saying is simply unfounded.

More to the topic at hand, I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to security. You also fail to address several of my points in regards to security being discouraged from brigging others.

Something I would support however for more minor crimes would be fines, but only for Green crimes and non violent yellow crimes.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Mitchs98

[McRamon]

I don't exactly understand what your suggestion is really, try to be more specific and put at least some time into thinking and coming up with an actualy suggestion on how to fix problems that you think exist, not some abstarct "i would like to see a system".

As for all the "no rp" and "wordlessly baton and cuff", thats as old as Paradise itself topic. Yes, there are sometimes issues with security players, but there are as well issues with non-security players too, and it is a non-ending cycle of screaming at each other. I personally always give a wanted crewmember a chance to come to brig willingly (unless they are in the process of doing the crime obviously), but the higher alert level is, the less times i ask. I've been stunned and robbed/killed by antags for that countless times too, but thats part of the game.

And here is a little fun fact, sometimes it is not "Security vs antags" or "crew vs antags". Sometimes it is "Security vs antags + crew". Some people migh have encountered a bad example of security officer in their playtime and now act against security. I am not talking about self-antaggin which can be easily dealt with by me or other admins, but rather in a more sublte way, which they have a right to do, but that also adds unnecessary escalation to the non-ending conflict between security and crew, similar to "bad" security officers. 

In the end, job of security officer is one of the most stressful jobs that includes great chances of being killed any time. Space law is law for everybody, and even though you broke into chemistry to make beneficial chemicals to help medbay or broke into janitor officer to get supplies and clean the station, that is still against the law and you should and will be brigged for it, despite your intentions.

If you want to help the case, don't antagonize security. Even in fear of being stunned/cuffed (oh my god thats so bad, whole day ruined), continue to cooperate and roleplay with security, and you will be surprised how many people roleplay back and let you go with a warning. If you commit a crime, turn around when asked to follow to brig, and scream "shitsec" after getting batoned and cuffed, you get maximum time for every single pettiest crime you have commited.

And for the love of god, be understanding of newbie officers. They have it rough already, and expecting heavy roleplay from them when they also try to learn new game mechanics and also try not to die is way too optimistic.

[Gatchapod]

Right, so here is a PoV of a security officer with over 10 times more playtime than you:
I point at someone 5 times, use hailer 3 times, point some more, chase them through half of the station and they keep running. Finally, exhausting all options I fire a disabler. I don't even cuff them, I just use the time they're down to type, because up until then I literally could not.
Then I hear how I'm shitsec for disabling on code green and after the round I'll probably keep hearing this.
And the actual reason was probably something like a minor trespass I wanted to discuss. Not arrest them for. Discuss and likely let them go with a warning. Sadly, no matter how little force you try to use, tiders basically force security to use weapons.

Coincidentally, this usually happens with non-antags. Antags usually outright attack me, so we skip the pleasantries and exchange blows (something, I assure you, both sides are fully prepared for). In the rare case antag doesn't immediately attack me, I try to demand they lie on the floor. If they do, I cuff them. Yes, I cuff them anyway. This is roleplay, even if you dislike that.

As for ending rounds of antags, I plainly don't understand. Server rules tell us to play the role we've picked. Security is held to a higher standard of that rule, too. Security job is to contain Enemies of the Corporation. Therefore, ignoring them and letting them go willy-nilly is quite literally against the server rules.

I'm not saying security is perfect. We're humans, we make mistakes and even break our own ideals when rounds get particularly stressful. We are, however, held to the aforementioned higher standards. I assure you I was questioned by admins a few times regarding my actions to confirm I followed both the Space Law and server rules, in both letter and spirit. I've seen countless other officers being held accountable for the misbehaviours, both IC and OOC.

[Auce]

Honestly I feel like everyone in this thread has vastly different anecdotal experiences on this server and while that's not surprising to me, I feel like just because I have one experience that doesn't make yours invalid, and likewise in return. 

"I don't exactly understand what your suggestion is really, try to be more specific and put at least some time into thinking and coming up with an actualy suggestion on how to fix problems that you think exist, not some abstarct "i would like to see a system"." In my original post I suggested that security be given goals/objectives like the science crewmen are on the end game screen, where they are given recognition for doing their jobs properly. One way of doing this is tracking how many minutes of temp-brig time they issued to crew (and perhaps to antags), and be given points for releasing non-antags and capturing/removing the threat of an actual antagonist. Perhaps security could have some sort of high tech option that could rehabilitate/defang an otherwise must-execute antagonist and allow them to continue the round instead of just being killed. This already sort of exists as borging, but I don't think this is an ideal solution for many players.

[Mitchs98]

10 hours ago, McRamon said:

Space law is law for everybody, and even though you broke into chemistry to make beneficial chemicals to help medbay or broke into janitor officer to get supplies and clean the station, that is still against the law and you should and will be brigged for it, despite your intentions.

While not entirely on topic, I'd like to point out that...no you shouldn't be brigged for breaking the law just because you broke Space Law. That goes entirely against what Space Law is for as well as what Space Law says about excusing certain crimes if they're done for the good of the station. The janitors closet thing would be briggable outside of certain situations I.E slaughter demons and what not. Someone breaking into medchem to make beneficial chemicals that medbay is in dire need of would make no sense to brig them for, if anything they should be patted on the back for it.

1 hour ago, Auce said:

One way of doing this is tracking how many minutes of temp-brig time they issued to crew (and perhaps to antags), and be given points for releasing non-antags and capturing/removing the threat of an actual antagonist.

Why would security be incentivized to not do their jobs properly? I.E release temp brig prisoners for little to no reason that, as in Plash's example, more often than not deserve their brig time. I don't truly understand how this incentivizes roleplay or is good for the health of the round. Not that most people try for high scores at the round end print out, but this seems to be encouraging wrong behavior. That being keeping tiders out in the halls to proceed to break more laws more often. 

Security doing their jobs properly is brigging people with appropriate context and reasoning. Good security and Wardens already give lighter sentences and warnings, they also encourage other officers and security officers to do the same. 

A better suggestion and an alternative that would actually facilitate better RP would be fines as well as edits to Space Law that encourage using warnings more often in certain situations for certain crimes. Not penalizing security for doing their jobs.

[Rythen]

21 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

A better suggestion and an alternative that would actually facilitate better RP would be fines

This is one thing I'd really love to see once we have a better economy system going and there being more reason for credits to exist.  I think having the option to give a fine or brig time depending on situation and context would be really nice for both sides.  There would be situations where you might still want to give brig time like if it's a repeat offender who you know is just going to continue being a crime lord even if you give him a fine but I feel like a lot of minor crimes, especially first offenses, would be great to just have a fine issued.

I don't really think it'd work that well with the current economy though since credits are meaningless and the other intention of brig sentences is as a way of discouraging widespread minor criming by adding a consequence to it.  

Edited April 8, 2022 by Rythen
Moved sentences around

[Auce]

Agreed, I think fines would be a good addition to the game, as long as the credit economy has more of an impact on the game.

[MattTheFicus]

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 I don't think security should be dealing with self antagging players, that's against server rules and should be ahelped right? I'm talking about people who are doing very minor crimes/SoP slipups and are brought in to talk, or people who are innocent/framed and brought in.

SoP is not Security's job. That's the Head's job to deal with. Minor crimes are also REALLY easy to just NOT do? So I dunno, not Security's issue if someone wants to break Laws that are written out for everyone to see.

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In my ~400 hours of experience now on the server I'd say that the majority of experience roleplaying with a sec officers consists of batong, cuff, processing and then stripping naked (or you doing the same to them if you are robust/feel like gaming). 

This may be because a majority of Antags can and do murderize officers for not getting someone into cuffs. If youre going to be loud/geared/known antag, this is what you are signing up for. Play stealthy and use disguises/tools or suffer the consequences of your actions. Considering a large majority of your hours are not in Security, I would suggest seeing things from their perspective before making judgements or claims to the Department as a whole.

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I think from a gameplay perspective, security should not want to arrest innocent people, and not want to cost the station productivity. I am fine with there being a warrant out on someone for a legitimate reason with evidence, and for force to be used if the perp resists, but there's a reason in real life police officers don't just run up and attack people with tasers/batons without giving them verbal warnings. If the suspect flees or resists obviously they lose this measure of protection.

Security is there to enforce Space Law, period. You sign up to play Security to enforce the IC Laws on the players in the round. Given that most people who are baton + cuffed instantly are set for a violent reason (armed, Vampire, Changeling, etc) this is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. As said above, if you don't want to be instantly arrested when you go loud, go stealthy or accept the consequences.

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 I don't believe that people being executed arbitrarily is a common occurance, just that security has every incentive and no disincentive to end an antag's round with perma and/or execution.

That's the name of the game. When you antag, if you don't succeed, you're either going to Perma or getting Executed. There's no reason to HAVE a disincentive as that's Security's SoP-based goal for dealing with Antagonists. EoC are not to be paroled barring extenuating circumstance, Perma Inmates who break Perma get shot. You have on average two hours to antag away and if you fail, you try again next time you roll it.

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I've on more than one occasion seen admins literally play security for them, adminfreezing and bwoinking someone doing something IC illegal but not against server rules. This sort of thing really takes the steam out of the round for both the security people who have nothing to do besides hunt for redtext, and for players with gimmicks or IC grudges/petty feuds with other characters who are unable to play them out for fear of bwoink.

I do want to note that this comment alone has zero context applied to it nor shows at all what Admins are dealing with on our side of the veil. 9/10 if we Freeze someone they're doing something MASSIVELY against the Rules. Someone who's following the Rules as a non-Antag has no reason to fear a bwoink. Worst case, if you are afraid of such, simply send in an ahelp and it can be discussed.

The fact that you think Security's sole purpose is to "redtext antags" also shows that you haven't been an Officer nearly at all. Security has plenty of opportunities to RP and deal with things without needing to baton someone to death. I would suggest actually playing some Security before painting them all with a wide brush. Many of the things that non-Security-yet-plays-antag players tend to complain about is how Security is quick to jump to GUN. This goes both ways. Frankly, the moment you go loud/armed/start killing, you waived your right to RP until youre disarmed and in cuffs. Security has zero reason to risk their life and round for an antag's.