Stunprod Rework

[Leanfrog]

So, stunprods as they are now are in kind of a sorry state three hits to fully stun someone is kind of really bad, I don't think I've seen anyone use them seriously (outside of bald tiders) since the nerf. So my proposal is this, stunprods should be reworked, they will be a 2 hit stun/stam crit much like regular security batons however, instead of using a set amount of charge per hit their cells are drained on a percentage, 50% to be exact, additionally prods would now take a timer to add/remove a power cell, this is to prevent combat hotswapping of powercells, finally prods would be made bulky and able to fit in a belt slot, this is to prevent carrying around multiple to just ignore the other downsides presented here. Let me know below what you think, overall I feel this is a reasonable change that would give prods a niche while still keeping them inferior to batons.
To summarize
Prods are now bulky but gain the ability to fit in the belt slot.
Prods stun/stam crit in 2 hits like a security baton.
Prods now use 50% of their equipped battery per hit.
Prods now have a timer on switching the equipped power cell.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Leanfrog

[LforLouise]

I like this, however I do think taking 50% of charge per hit is a bit too much, should be 25% at most in my opinion, especially if you can't put them in a backpack.

[Rythen]

Yeah overall I like this idea but I think 50% is a bit much.  It would mean that you have one chance to hit someone twice back to back.  I feel like this might be even worse for fending off multiple attackers than their current state.  Like even though it takes 3 hits currently to stun someone, 1 or 2 hits on someone when you're surrounded is still enough to slow them down a bit and potentially get away.  

I agree that their capacity should be very limited due to their nature but I think 25% feels a bit more right to me.  That means you can either fully stun 2 people or slow 4 people down.  Also is a bit more forgiving to less robust players who might need to stun someone a second time if they are fumbling to remove headsets or cuff the person.  Having only a single shot to stun someone like that is likely fine for vets but I think a bit too punishing for newer people.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Rythen

[Charliminator]

I am up for this, as I said on the design doc. I would prefer if we just made them bulky and 2 hits to stun. not sure about belt slot, back slot sure. 

[Leanfrog]

42 minutes ago, Rythen said:

I agree that their capacity should be very limited due to their nature but I think 25% feels a bit more right to me.  That means you can either fully stun 2 people or slow 4 people down.  Also is a bit more forgiving to less robust players who might need to stun someone a second time if they are fumbling to remove headsets or cuff the person.  Having only a single shot to stun someone like that is likely fine for vets but I think a bit too punishing for newer people.

This is fair, I was generally thinking of it from an offensive perspective rather than potentially using it to escape an aggressor (cult, etc) and the degree of an at least experienced player. 25% does seem more fair overall.
 

36 minutes ago, Charliminator said:

I am up for this, as I said on the design doc. I would prefer if we just made them bulky and 2 hits to stun. not sure about belt slot, back slot sure. 

Back slot already exists, but I doubt anyone would actually give up their backpack or carry it around just to have a funny weaker batong stored, so belt seems fair. If it's too good though then it can be easily changed.

[Carthusia]

I do like the timer to switch cells, hot swapping cells is fairly easy as it stands, but a % charge drain per hit seems odd when i think about it, since you can slap in differing powercells, so it would be a 25-50% drain per hit on a 5k cell, and also a 40k cell, while it being bulky may just make it even less used as its no longer a concealed weapon, and it may encourage the theft of security batons as they still are concealable "As far as i remember" This though can be seen as a good thing depending on how one looks at it.

 

 

[Leanfrog]

19 minutes ago, BlackDog said:

I do like the timer to switch cells, hot swapping cells is fairly easy as it stands, but a % charge drain per hit seems odd when i think about it, since you can slap in differing powercells, so it would be a 25-50% drain per hit on a 5k cell, and also a 40k cell, while it being bulky may just make it even less used as its no longer a concealed weapon, and it may encourage the theft of security batons as they still are concealable "As far as i remember" This though can be seen as a good thing depending on how one looks at it.

This is intentional, sec batons should be better than prods, prods are makeshift weapons that just about anyone can make cheaply, and being able to carry more than two or three conveniently (one belt/back, 1/2 in hand or any other combination), would circumvent the downside of the high power cost and inability to hotswap cells midcombat.
The %based battery usage is based on the fact that they're quite ramshackle (you don't even need to tools to craft them) and to give them a downside other than just their size, without it they'd pretty much just be bigger batons that are a bit harder to hide. If you want something better you should have to do a larger crime than just "Possession Of A Weapon", be it stealing a sec baton or being a contractor for the baton they get.

[Carthusia]

Perhaps maybe higher cells beyond the high cap it requires to use give more hits, but also run the risk of backfire hits to? Like it overloads, uses the power, but also gives you a jolt

Hard to say how that would work, just burn damage, maybe stamina damage, or both?

Not sure, but just tossin it out there as an idea since if all powercells give the same amount of hits, then there is no incentive to ever acquire a better cell type, maybe the lower the tech the cell is, the more chance it has at given you a backfire? With bluespace cells/charged slime cores being the most stable to use in the prod but still run the risk of a backfire, while normal security batons cant backfire and get better power usage

Edited July 29, 2022 by BlackDog

[Rythen]

3 hours ago, BlackDog said:

I do like the timer to switch cells, hot swapping cells is fairly easy as it stands, but a % charge drain per hit seems odd when i think about it, since you can slap in differing powercells

Unless this was changed I was pretty sure you can only use regular power cells and not high capacity or others in a stunprod.

Edit: Sorry checked and I was wrong, you can put high capacities in.  I think this must have changed or I'm dumb, woops.

Edit 2: Nope I'm even dumber than I thought, what I was thinking was you CAN'T use a regular power cell and it needs to be a high capacity or better.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rythen

[Leanfrog]

1 hour ago, BlackDog said:

With bluespace cells/charged slime cores being the most stable to use in the prod but still run the risk of a backfire, while normal security batons cant backfire and get better power usage

30 minutes ago, Rythen said:

Edit 2: Nope I'm even dumber than I thought, what I was thinking was you CAN'T use a regular power cell and it needs to be a high capacity or better.

Can't load yellow cores into stun prods IIRC. I do kind of like the idea of prods potentially backfiring but I feel it may be too punishing for newer players, and if anything the backfire chance should be the inverse of the second option you've suggested, lower charge lower amount released in a dangerous discharge while a higher capacity cell has more to potentially dump into a user. Maybe specifically bluespace cells could have a few extra hits compared to the other cells due to the much later development of them compared to other cells.

EDIT: Just thought of this as well, but losing a fight to RNG is kinda lame, there's no low tier alternative to batons other than a prod, and unlike modifying the detective revolver you don't exactly have a choice when using the prod.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Leanfrog

[Rythen]

19 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

EDIT: Just thought of this as well, but losing a fight to RNG is kinda lame, there's no low tier alternative to batons other than a prod, and unlike modifying the detective revolver you don't exactly have a choice when using the prod.

Yeah agreed, that was my thought around the idea of backfiring too.

[Carthusia]

Fair enough

[Rurik]

Stunprods still have a use, but its mostly for a combat opener (hit with stunprod, swap to butcher knife then start stabbing while they cant run). It no longer fits the kidnapping niche it once had.

I fully agree it should be made Bulky (fit on back, not belt) and in compensation make it 2 hits to crit like stunbaton. 

There's no real need for the cell charge changes imo, trading bulky for one less hit is a fair enough trade as it stands. If your worried it'll be op you can throw it in though.

Lastly: It should be noted this yields double benefit of no civilians being able to hide a stunprod in their pack "just in case" as it'd be visible to everyone. This alone makes the change worth it.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rurik

[Charliminator]

12 hours ago, BlackDog said:

I do like the timer to switch cells

I'm not entirely sold. The ability to juggle multiple items quickly is the peak of ss13 robustness.

[S34N]

Make them bulky, use more power than regular batons, and 2 hit stun.

[Viz]

2-hit bulky seems to be a common opinion and one I myself subscribe to. Improvised stun weapons should be fairly obvious, otherwise it gets a bit too easy to get away with for just about anyone. Also would make validhunters look like absolute tools when they can't hide their prod.

This makes stunbaton still a direct upgrade thanks to fitting in your bag. I think that is the way to go.

[Leanfrog]

Right, I'm seeing a lot of objection to prods having the funky %battery stuff, I personally think it would add an extra layer of forethought for using them but I'm not the one making the actual code changes. I guess just making it bulky would be fine on its own, but I will still push for the belt slot I've been told there would be objections to just bulky in other discussion so I see the belt slot thing as a sort of compromise for that. (Do note that making prods bulky was actually PR'd before a while ago, but this was back in the era of instant stuns)

[Viz]

I'd do it but it'd need a belt sprite :gatto:

[S34N]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/18640