Change the config option "non_repeating_maps" from false to true

[Frank]

I'm tired of box but I still don't want to go against the majority. A popup window would be nice as I mentioned earlier.

Not everyone has all the time in the world to play videogames. If I joined recently and my schedule was as packed as it is now, I'd hate having to learn three maps. 

[Bmon]

13 minutes ago, Aligote said:

What's MOTD? You could also @ everyone on discord in announcements and force them to vote via reactions....

Message of the day (MOTD). It's what you see when you first connect to the server. Yes a discord ping would work, me saying to use the MOTD is me being a boomer again

[ArcZelf]

While we're on the toping of voting in the more recent replies,

 

How about changing it so that the map voting phase begins when the shuttle launches?

Personally, I forget to map vote at the end of the round because I'm too busy running for my life  or murdering others due to EORG.

While doing this might break the immersion of the game a little, I feel like it's a decent sacrifice to make in order to get more map votes. This is because in that phase of the shuttle, most people are just sitting down and waiting for the round to inevitably end in the next 3 minutes. The map voting phase can begin for those not doing anything and get their early votes in.

When it comes to things like hijack where the traitor is killing all of the passengers to gain that sweet greentext, everyone involved can just wait until the bzzt bzzt bzzt sound when the round officially ends to place their vote since they still have a solid minute or two to place their vote.

[Denthamos]

Siding with Neca on this.  The issue is primarily with the vast majority of people just not even bothering to vote because they do not care, forget about it, or think their vote would do nothing.  Removing the choice entirely from the players and forcing something down their throats is not a good path forward in regards to something which effects every single round.

From a few days ago, heres when I reminded people to vote in an announcement at round end and surprise surprise

Delta won the roll.  What is telling about this though is that this is a total of 21 votes when the server had around 80+ people in it at the time on the hub listing.  I cannot sign off on removing the choice from the playerbase as they are the ones who are playing it every round.

[Frank]

25 minutes ago, ArcZelf said:

How about changing it so that the map voting phase begins when the shuttle launches?

YES

[Denthamos]

29 minutes ago, ArcZelf said:

While we're on the toping of voting in the more recent replies,

 

How about changing it so that the map voting phase begins when the shuttle launches?

Personally, I forget to map vote at the end of the round because I'm too busy running for my life  or murdering others due to EORG.

 

Heck I would say have the vote take place at round start while everyone is waiting there at the lobby.  They have nothing better to do than wait for the round to start, maybe more might do it while they are waiting.

[Generaldonothing]

31 minutes ago, ArcZelf said:

How about changing it so that the map voting phase begins when the shuttle launches?

Yeah, this should be a thing

[Miraviel]

40 minutes ago, Denthamos said:

Heck I would say have the vote take place at round start while everyone is waiting there at the lobby.  They have nothing better to do than wait for the round to start, maybe more might do it while they are waiting.

The issue with this is that if someone joins midway-towards the end of the round, and only has the time to play one round, their "vote" becomes meaningless, because people two hours prior decided what the next map will be. Most of those people are unlikely to play what they voted for as well, as, while we have people playing ss13 all day, I think most people only play one round a day.

Having the map vote occur after the escape shuttle launched is a better compromise I think, most people just spam *spin on their escape pods and do nothing until they arrive at CC anyhow (when they can finally do EORG).

[Bmon]

But then you have to account for special round ending conditions like a wizard dying or a blob taking over the station.

I think it would be best to extend the round end duration from one minute to two minute and force a pop-up instead.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Bmon

[AffectedArc07]

10 hours ago, ArcZelf said:

How about changing it so that the map voting phase begins when the shuttle launches?

The reason it isn't on the shuttle launch is because not all rounds end in shuttles. Examples include:

• Wizard
• Nukies
• Blob
• Any regular round where a nuke is required
• Admin intervention
• Slings when we still had them

---

9 hours ago, Bmon said:

I think it would be best to extend the round end duration from one minute to two minute and force a pop-up instead.

The timer for end round got raised to 75 seconds to account for this, however, I have a "better" option.

---

Its a 3 part system.

1. Add an Abstain vote button for those who dont particularly care for which map, but they dont want to add to the box pile
2. Force the vote window up on vote start
3. MAYBE lock out pvp until theyve voted as incentive? This one is highly contentious so will need actual thought behind it, but this is my 3-piece guaranteed more votes piece. 

[necaladun]

13 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Add an Abstain vote button for those who dont particularly care for which map, but they dont want to add to the box pile

Sure why the hell not. Good to get the data to see who doesn't give a shit.
 

13 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Force the vote window up on vote start

I think this will be fine and not too annoying, we can always change it later if it is.

13 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

MAYBE lock out pvp until theyve voted as incentive? This one is highly contentious so will need actual thought behind it, but this is my 3-piece guaranteed more votes piece. 

Hmmmmmm let's try other options first I think.

 

@AffectedArc07how hard would getting better logging/graphs/etc for votes be?

 

Other suggestions highly welcome - admins chatted a bit about rewards for voting and decided heavily against that.

[AffectedArc07]

2 minutes ago, necaladun said:

@AffectedArc07how hard would getting better logging/graphs/etc for votes be?

We already log every vote to the database and can see how many people voted. We also log how many people escape on the shuttle and total clients at round end, so we can get a pretty accurate idea of how many people actually vote, but at the moment it seems to be about 10%

---

3 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I think this will be fine and not too annoying, we can always change it later if it is.

I would only ever allow this system if we have an abstain button, simple as

---

4 minutes ago, necaladun said:

Hmmmmmm let's try other options first I think.

I did say it would need actual thought behind it 

 

 

[Denthamos]

15 hours ago, Miraviel said:

The issue with this is that if someone joins midway-towards the end of the round, and only has the time to play one round, their "vote" becomes meaningless, because people two hours prior decided what the next map will be. Most of those people are unlikely to play what they voted for as well, as, while we have people playing ss13 all day, I think most people only play one round a day.

Having the map vote occur after the escape shuttle launched is a better compromise I think, most people just spam *spin on their escape pods and do nothing until they arrive at CC anyhow (when they can finally do EORG).

I mean like, the initial popup at round start for people to begin voting.  Then at round end you could still add your vote in before it actually finalizes the choice?

[AffectedArc07]

48 minutes ago, Denthamos said:

I mean like, the initial popup at round start for people to begin voting.  Then at round end you could still add your vote in before it actually finalizes the choice?

Not doable unless you want to halt 90% of the server init until a vote has taken place, a vote which will be missed by 90% of people due to reconnection issues that crop up from time to time. 

[Warriorstar]

I apologize in advance for how harsh this sounds coming across.

I'm a little worried about the state of this discussion. It's been quite some time now since Delta and Meta were added to rotation and in this thread we're still bandying about fundamental questions that I think should have been answered definitively before mappers invested hundreds of collective hours building and refining them:

1. Do players want new maps?
2. Do we want to encourage players to play new maps?

These facets of the discussion have been done to death:

1. Change aversion is inevitable
2. Voting being biased by vocal minorities/indifferent participants is inevitable
3. The new maps are not getting the chance to improve that they deserve
4. People are spending actual time, energy and passion building these maps
5. Players should not have new maps forced on them if they don't want them

An exchange I remember showing up during one of the countless discussions on IPC emergency kits was:

- "Surely the number of people who expect this says something about the validity of the change?"

- "The problem is with those players' expectations."

I think we should consider strongly how much we should weigh community expectations regarding map rotation. We don't choose game type just because players demand a round be extended or wizard.

I'd much rather have the choice be random, but if we are dead set on receiving player input: I say keep the map vote, but only use player votes as an input for weighing the random choice. That way the people who do vote, and thus care about what map they play next, have a slightly greater chance of having their vote count, but not so much that it completely overrides the result for people who don't vote.

 

On 9/16/2022 at 6:23 PM, Frank said:

I'm tired of box but I still don't want to go against the majority. A popup window would be nice as I mentioned earlier.

Not everyone has all the time in the world to play videogames. If I joined recently and my schedule was as packed as it is now, I'd hate having to learn three maps. 

I'm sympathetic to this because that's how I feel about Tarkov. But ultimately SS13 is a game that changes *constantly*, like a dozen PRs every couple of days. You also shouldn't feel any stress or pressure to learn new maps by heart within a certain timeframe or to be specifically productive. If you're lost on a map, your character is probably simultaneously also lost, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Warriorstar

[Bmon]

3 hours ago, Warriorstar said:

I'd much rather have the choice be random, but if we are dead set on receiving player input: I say keep the map vote, but only use player votes as an input for weighing the random choice. That way the people who do vote, and thus care about what map they play next, have a slightly greater chance of having their vote count, but not so much that it completely overrides the result for people who don't vote.

Sounds like you're describing urn voting which was voted against by our design team in this PR

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/18489

 

Two Headmins saying no to this happening means it just won't happen, ever.

I would have loved to have a vote to decide on what to do with the current map rotation system, unrealistic as it is for me to want that on Para.

[Aligote]

Was this ever resolved?

[AffectedArc07]

Im currently trialling a system with different rotations on different days to see how people react to the mixed map voting.

 

[Generaldonothing]

PR can be found here

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/19159

[Shaw]

6 hours ago, AffectedArc07 said:

Im currently trialling a system with different rotations on different days to see how people react to the mixed map voting.

 

When you say, “see how people react…” is there another forum thread that we should be discussing the trial systems and voicing our opinions/discussing on discord?

[Charliminator]

4 hours ago, Shaw said:

When you say, “see how people react…” is there another forum thread that we should be discussing the trial systems and voicing our opinions/discussing on discord?

You can voice your opinions here or on the pull request.

[Warriorstar]

Honestly the rotation system is a pretty inspired compromise. It helps the "last shift's vote is this shift's round" by providing a bit less ambiguity on when someone can expect certain maps to be played; it ensures player input is still factored in, while still giving Meta/Delta reliable opportunities to be played; and as far as I can tell it's already resulted in a surge of suggestions/bugs being reported for the new maps, which is exactly what we want for them to improve. Just this one simple change has seriously increased my confidence that Delta/Meta will become staples on Para. So kudos to the people who came up with it.