The Case for Minor Antags

[alphaJackal]

So Paradise is known as THE MRP server. Action and roleplay. For the most part, this holds up, even...except when Security and Antagonists interact. Theirs is a very binary, LRP connection. Either you're an EoC or you're not an EoC, and if you ARE an EoC, less talky more shooty. People often say they want more RP from antags, but nothing is ever done to address the material conditions which lead to nonstop, speechless combat between security and antags.

The biggest and most significant cause of this problem is that the path of least resistance for dealing with antags is violence in every circumstance. There is not a single kind of antag where the ultimate solution isn't some form of combat. Adding to this is that combat isn't even the last resort or the brilliant climax of the interaction, but the first and last step in most instances, even in cases like with Contractors where most of the threat is theoretical rather than immediate(The baton is decidedly nonlethal, but the idea that they MIGHT survive long enough to get a bunch of TC is impetus enough to kill them.) Space law itself is designed in such a manner that it not only facilitates this process, but streamlines it with simple, black and white rules: If EoC, fighting time. If spicy EoC, killing time. There are theoretical rules for dealing with non-antag lawbreakers, but the fact is that most things that could land you in the brig without being an EoC qualify as self-antagging and thus it's relatively rare for non-EoCs to be brigged. All of these things together create a sort of clarity that makes knowing when you're allowed to bring out the guns clear as day, and thus security does so without hesitation the moment escalation is possible. There is NEVER a benefit to talking to an antag for security, at least not before they're tucked away in perma with little to no leverage. And you can argue that role-play is not necessarily about taking the easiest route possible, but when you have a game with victory and defeat conditions, almost every player in this system will prioritize victory.

So to address this problem, as well has bring in a few other side benefits, I propose three things:

1) The addition of 'minor' antagonists, who will be restricted from killing except in defense of their own lives, and who will have objectives such as theft and minor acts of sabotage. They will have enough TC to maybe buy one or two tools from a curated list of syndie gear that only includes non-lethal equipment. They will NOT be classified as EoCs. They will otherwise function as traitors with their own uplinks.

2) Moving the designated gear from the minor antagonists out of class S. This is ESSENTIAL for the creation of ambiguity security must face when determining if someone is a minor antagonist or an EoC.

3)Allow some of the gear from the minor antagonist list to spawn in maints. This creates yet more ambiguity and weakens the 'random searches' sec can do on the people that they OOCly recognize antag behavior in.

 

So, breaking it down point by point:

1)Adding minor antags is primarily intended to create a class of antagonist that forces Sec to make use of the non-perma part of the brig, to spend valuable time and energy trying to deduce who is and is not an EoC. Sec would need to figure out who to prioritize and when to let crimes slip because there's something more pressing and dealing with crime is no longer as simple as shoot the crime until it goes away. In essence, minor antagonists are a smokescreen for greater threats, making it more difficult for security to escalate force legally. It also has the side benefit of adding the sort of minor chaos which doesn't fundamentally impede the station from functioning but does provide more roles and entertainment for players. It's important that the objectives the minor antags are not the sort which ruin the station.

GOOD minor antag objectives: Steal a hand teleporter, Steal Secret Documents, bring target to a location.

BAD minor antag objectives: Subvert a synthetic, sabotage the RnD servers, steal the X-01.

The objectives, whatever they may be, should never be something that hinders a station much, but is very clearly a crime that sec must deal with non-lethally and without the use of Perma.

Another side benefit of having minor antags is that players who might be intimidated by being antagonist have a lower-pressure environment to practice crimes.

2) The gear I'm aiming for these minor antagonists to have are things such as access tuners, boxed space suits, storage implants, and other similar items which do not have a direct offensive application. It's ESSENTIAL that these be moved off of class S where they are present, to ensure minor antags don't end up in perma and to give more plausible deniability to other antags who might possess such items. Of course, they will still be confiscated when found, but they won't be a perma sentence, nor will they result in a tracker. Security will need to build a stronger case against someone before declaring them an EoC. This potentially gives more relevance to the detective and magistrate. My overarching theory here is that Space Law does too much to facilitate security's activities, and should instead be more of a hindrance, preventing them from taking the 'easy way' of escalating force. Because that IS the easy way. The more sec is able to escalate, the easier it is for them to fall into that mindset of 'Redtext at any cost'. It's important to note that this doesn't in any way affect security's ability to escalate against biohazards, war declarations, or any such things, because it will still be obvious within space law that such are station-wide emergencies which must be dealt with decisively. This really only would create leeway for changelings, traitors, and vampires who might possess things they shouldn't and get hit with the inevitable meta-knowledge fueled 'random search'.

 

3)Right now, there is loot in maints that is illegal for the crew to hold, and most of the time the crew has no incentive to do anything other than turn it in to sec or science because the alternative is getting searched and thrown in perma for having a stetchkin in their bag. Illegal maint loot should be a precious treasure hoarded even by non-antag crew members, to further create confusion as to who is or is not EoC, and to facilitate this, and to add plausible deniability to the minor and non-minor antags, more illegal loot should be added to maints that won't land anyone in perma.

 

All three of these things together are meant to obfuscate the process of determining who is and is not an EoC. Certain things like being a Chainsaw Man will still land you the KoS without much fuss, but now, if you're just someone with an access tuner who got caught in the vault, you might be a burglar rather than a syndie, so Sec can't just toss you in perma and call it a win. By making it harder for sec to immediately go to the highest level of force possible, I think this will encourage players exploring other options. Interrogations, playing dumb, and all sorts of speech-based interactions can happen when your local antag isn't rightfully assuming they'll be shot mid-sentence. The opportunity to deprive an antag of valuable TC gear still gives sec some sort of win for catching you, but you have a second chance to complete your objectives even if you're an antag forced to convince security you're a lesser threat than you actually are.

 

In closing, as long as security can be sure that you're either an EoC or not an antag at all, there will not be meaningful roleplay between security and antags. By providing a middle ground, a gray option which allows the possibility of being an antag without being an EoC, it opens a dialogue between security and their targets, a chance to de-escalate and force Security to reconsider bringing out lethals.

 

 

[Daeodon]

you're absolutely correct about antag/sec interactions- trying to run a gimmick or do something interesting story-wise just ends up with the antag stunned and gg'd mid-sentence for their trouble, nine times out of ten.

[robveelben]

Great Idea but I have something I am worried about.

 

A few things here about how contraband law is set up. (This is from my understanding of those laws)
Most maint loot you can find is not S-Class but C-Class which is very different in consideration to how Space Law works

Lets say you found Stechkin this is also called an syndicate pistol in the wiki and is considered C-Class contraband which means if you did no other crimes you will be brigged for contraband.

The mayor but here is if you didn't commit any other crimes which in most cases with C-Class contraband would be the case.
I think this idea would work better if there is an D-Class contraband level where if you used these items with an other crime it would not upgrade the contraband crime to an perma sentance.

 

[Charliminator]

Theres one thing I think you havent considered. "less talky more shooty" isnt LRP. RP stands for Role play, if you are playing the role of a space terrorist whos out for murder, detaining them with violence is a good way to play your role as a security officer. 

8 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

GOOD minor antag objectives: Steal a hand teleporter, Steal Secret Documents, bring target to a location.

BAD minor antag objectives: Subvert a synthetic, sabotage the RnD servers, steal the X-01.

The objectives, whatever they may be, should never be something that hinders a station much, but is very clearly a crime that sec must deal with non-lethally and without the use of Perma.

why without the use of perma? all the objectives you've listed would be dealt with perma, and it would be kind of low roleplay to not permanently imprison someone for stealing stations top secret documents. 

 

[Eric6426]

To add to Charlie's previous post

Alongside that this would impact two things:
1- How do players actually see if someone's self-antagging (And should ahelp them)? The previous objectives are mostly antag objectives or relevant enough to disturb the round, however if say a non-antag clown steals the X-01 then after resisting gets arrested and has no S class and whines about not being a traitor, they're ahelped on suspicion on doing it just to self-antag. As a 'thief' they'd be practically impossible to report from players, making our job (hi) harder since admins cannot pay attention to 100% of the logs and happenings of the round at all times, specially in low admin-numbers.

2- Even if they were added (with all the changes of S-class, C-class, security brigging changes, etc) what would they come from? Traitors? Changelings and Vampires for-sure cannot be 'minor' in much way, the former is a KOS when detected and the latter's abilities are extremely blatant and instant EOC. Traitor... works? But they'd need to either: Take from the current pool of Traitors, or add more on top. Latter would add too many antags, mid/highpop security is already overwhelmed by normal tots (pray for them if they get 3 hijackers in one round/malf AI too) and the former would make rounds far calmer, which people, specially those who like the action and chaos of Paradise, would heavily dislike.

Its not really 'LRP' to no-word shoot the murderer. Or if you break into a heavily restricted area, get instantly shot and then talked to. Security and Antagonists roleplay plenty, when its reasonable. Sometimes not as much as they could, sure, but if you're a really obvious Terrorist/Blood-Sucker/Cling with either S-class or abilities known to be of that EOC you're just asking for security to take care of you. Charlie explained it very well on his first post. Antags who haven't been outwardly found will simply be searched/put on monitor/detained for questioning. And if sec cannot pin anything on them, they're released.

3 hours ago, Charliminator said:

Theres one thing I think you havent considered. "less talky more shooty" isnt LRP. RP stands for Role play, if you are playing the role of a space terrorist whos out for murder, detaining them with violence is a good way to play your role as a security officer. 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Eric6426

[alphaJackal]

8 hours ago, robveelben said:

Great Idea but I have something I am worried about.

 

A few things here about how contraband law is set up. (This is from my understanding of those laws)
Most maint loot you can find is not S-Class but C-Class which is very different in consideration to how Space Law works

Lets say you found Stechkin this is also called an syndicate pistol in the wiki and is considered C-Class contraband which means if you did no other crimes you will be brigged for contraband.

The mayor but here is if you didn't commit any other crimes which in most cases with C-Class contraband would be the case.
I think this idea would work better if there is an D-Class contraband level where if you used these items with an other crime it would not upgrade the contraband crime to an perma sentance.

 

 

Perhaps mentioning the stetchkin muddied the waters a bit, but the loot I want added to maints is a smattering of non-lethal S-Class items. I view the Access Tuner as the perfect example of this. Other good examples would be the Agent ID Card and the Chameleon Security HUD. Additionally, now that I'm thinking about it, it might also be a good idea to touch up the Class C list so that players can simply run around with voice changers and modulators freely, and stuff like that. I'm not opposed to adding a new class of contraband to the list, but the thing I'm trying to facilitate here is increasing the amount of contraband non-antag crew wants to carry.

 

4 hours ago, Charliminator said:

Theres one thing I think you havent considered. "less talky more shooty" isnt LRP. RP stands for Role play, if you are playing the role of a space terrorist whos out for murder, detaining them with violence is a good way to play your role as a security officer. 

why without the use of perma? all the objectives you've listed would be dealt with perma, and it would be kind of low roleplay to not permanently imprison someone for stealing stations top secret documents. 

 

In theory, I agree with your first point, but if your ENTIRE interaction with an antag boils down to 'I saw a baton, bring out the lethals', that isn't RP. If there is no meaningful interaction beyond 'identify target, shoot target', that's basically the same level of RP you get playing an online shooter.

 

As for the second, I view it as essential that these minor antags not end up in perma because the primary purpose for them existing is to make it less clear for security what they're dealing with. If you can just shove the minor antags in perma, then they don't serve this purpose, because you're essentially treating them mostly the same as other antags. Security must correctly identify and build a case against the non-obvious, non-minor antags before the use of perma. This is intentional and to make the security-antag interactions less straightforward, and non-violent tots can take advantage of having a smokescreen that separates them from how security treats Chainsaw Man.

 

1 hour ago, Eric6426 said:

To add to Charlie's previous post

Alongside that this would impact two things:
1- How do players actually see if someone's self-antagging (And should ahelp them)? The previous objectives are mostly antag objectives or relevant enough to disturb the round, however if say a non-antag clown steals the X-01 then after resisting gets arrested and has no S class and whines about not being a traitor, they're ahelped on suspicion on doing it just to self-antag. As a 'thief' they'd be practically impossible to report from players, making our job (hi) harder since admins cannot pay attention to 100% of the logs and happenings of the round at all times, specially in low admin-numbers.

2- Even if they were added (with all the changes of S-class, C-class, security brigging changes, etc) what would they come from? Traitors? Changelings and Vampires for-sure cannot be 'minor' in much way, the former is a KOS when detected and the latter's abilities are extremely blatant and instant EOC. Traitor... works? But they'd need to either: Take from the current pool of Traitors, or add more on top. Latter would add too many antags, mid/highpop security is already overwhelmed by normal tots (pray for them if they get 3 hijackers in one round/malf AI too) and the former would make rounds far calmer, which people, specially those who like the action and chaos of Paradise, would heavily dislike.

Its not really 'LRP' to no-word shoot the murderer. Or if you break into a heavily restricted area, get instantly shot and then talked to. Security and Antagonists roleplay plenty, when its reasonable. Sometimes not as much as they could, sure, but if you're a really obvious Terrorist/Blood-Sucker/Cling with either S-class or abilities known to be of that EOC you're just asking for security to take care of you. Charlie explained it very well on his first post. Antags who haven't been outwardly found will simply be searched/put on monitor/detained for questioning. And if sec cannot pin anything on them, they're released.

 

 

For your first point, I specifically mentioned that stealing the X0-1 was a bad example of a minor antag objective. This is because it's an item which can directly cause a level of harm and destruction that stealing secret documents cannot. And, if the clown resists arrest, there is already a minor offense for resisting arrest. As for other thefts...well, this ties back into what I said previously, that most forms of crime are considered self-antagging. Honestly, I think that except in extreme cases like the X0-1, thefts should be handled IC unless a given player starts making a habit of constantly being an ass every round and stealing everything not bolted down. Perhaps it's a matter of picking your demons, because I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that the level of roleplay between sec and antagonists is where it should be right now.

 

For the second point, this is a bit harder to answer since I don't really have that kind of under-the-hood perspective, but I think that the possibility of having one or two minor antags in addition to the normal ones would be fine. To be honest, the minor antags fulfill most of their purpose if sec merely knows there is a possibility they exist and have to adjust their behavior accordingly. Addressing the rest: I did already mention that Chainsaw Man still gets treated business as usual. If you're wandering around murdering openly, then it's still open season. The area I'm specifically targeting is when sec deals with the more 'subtle' antags. It's pretty frequent for an officer to see the way an antag is acting, instantly know they're an antag with OOC knowledge, and perform a 'random' search. Additionally, having another class of antag that is specifically NOT EoC should make security more hesitant to pull out lethal force without being sure the antag in question is a lethal threat. Space Law does way too much work in simplifying the process of declaring someone an EoC. I want to make that process muddier. As I mentioned in my first post, as long as using the maximum level of allowed violence is the path of least resistance, it will be taken more often than not.

[Eric6426]

21 minutes ago, alphaJackal said:

For your first point, I specifically mentioned that stealing the X0-1 was a bad example of a minor antag objective. This is because it's an item which can directly cause a level of harm and destruction that stealing secret documents cannot.

Thing is, the X0-1 isn't the only thing there that would get them perma. Hand-Tele and Vault-Documents are also perma if you rob them, which are two of the "Good" objectives underlined by you, the only would be the "bring target to X" - Although, to chip in, I do vaguely remember there being (Maybe in TG?) a mechanic to plant a bug in an item/room, which could reasonably work for such.

21 minutes ago, alphaJackal said:

Honestly, I think that except in extreme cases like the X0-1, thefts should be handled IC unless a given player starts making a habit of constantly being an ass every round and stealing everything not bolted down.

And they are. We ain't going to get involved if you hack a medvendor and steal a brute mender. We will, however, get involved when you're a major distraction to security / steal some high-risk item or something that you really shouldn't steal (As a non-antag) Much like above, documents/hand tele would be an issue.

21 minutes ago, alphaJackal said:

It's pretty frequent for an officer to see the way an antag is acting, instantly know they're an antag with OOC knowledge, and perform a 'random' search.

 It really never is 'random' or done with OOC knowledge. I, much like many others who have played, also see Mr Antag Main wearing a Transilvania Coat in a round with an already confirmed vampire but no one actually bothers them, but when you're a no ID mask-wearing miner in maints, or hacking into a place, security will 'random' or reasonably search you, they don't act on OOC knowledge, the antag just doesn't actually pass off like someone doing their job (And you can always ahelp if they seek you out for some OOC reason, yet they're allowed to just random search depending on alert level/evidence they may have)

21 minutes ago, alphaJackal said:

Additionally, having another class of antag that is specifically NOT EoC should make security more hesitant to pull out lethal force without being sure the antag in question is a lethal threat. Space Law does way too much work in simplifying the process of declaring someone an EoC. I want to make that process muddier.

Security don't... use lethal force against unreasonable things though? If the antagonists falls within the "Lethals Allowed+" class in Space-Law they're allowed to, they don't lethal people who aren't lethalable most if not always, because lethaling 'everyone' because 'muh antag redtext' gets you issues. I do agree it's not the worst idea, but truthfully Traitors always get treated with ease because they always use the same items (S class) which is the class that's outward about it, and I personally don't think sec needs *too* much to bog brig, they're often overworked, and things like Dynamic/More ease using labor-camp would help make this better, however that's just my 50 cents, I'm neither a maint nor a head, which both would really be required to push this through, and would need *massive* work done restructuring and replanning things, at that, however it'd need a ton of planning, which is why I've chipped at some things that could be issues.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Eric6426

[alphaJackal]

1 hour ago, Eric6426 said:

Thing is, the X0-1 isn't the only thing there that would get them perma. Hand-Tele and Vault-Documents are also perma if you rob them, which are two of the "Good" objectives underlined by you, the only would be the "bring target to X" - Although, to chip in, I do vaguely remember there being (Maybe in TG?) a mechanic to plant a bug in an item/room, which could reasonably work for such.

And they are. We ain't going to get involved if you hack a medvendor and steal a brute mender. We will, however, get involved when you're a major distraction to security / steal some high-risk item or something that you really shouldn't steal (As a non-antag) Much like above, documents/hand tele would be an issue.

 It really never is 'random' or done with OOC knowledge. I, much like many others who have played, also see Mr Antag Main wearing a Transilvania Coat in a round with an already confirmed vampire but no one actually bothers them, but when you're a no ID mask-wearing miner in maints, or hacking into a place, security will 'random' or reasonably search you, they don't act on OOC knowledge, the antag just doesn't actually pass off like someone doing their job (And you can always ahelp if they seek you out for some OOC reason, yet they're allowed to just random search depending on alert level/evidence they may have)

Security don't... use lethal force against unreasonable things though? If the antagonists falls within the "Lethals Allowed+" class in Space-Law they're allowed to, they don't lethal people who aren't lethalable most if not always, because lethaling 'everyone' because 'muh antag redtext' gets you issues. I do agree it's not the worst idea, but truthfully Traitors always get treated with ease because they always use the same items (S class) which is the class that's outward about it, and I personally don't think sec needs *too* much to bog brig, they're often overworked, and things like Dynamic/More ease using labor-camp would help make this better, however that's just my 50 cents, I'm neither a maint nor a head, which both would really be required to push this through, and would need *massive* work done restructuring and replanning things, at that, however it'd need a ton of planning, which is why I've chipped at some things that could be issues.

Going point by point again.

 

My point in making those possible objectives is to change space law so that certain things which a minor antag could do would no longer be treated as perma offenses. There's meant to be overlap between minor and normal antag objectives to create confusion as to which is which.

I can only comment on my own experiences, but the brig is left unused 9/10 rounds for anything but perma prisoners in my experience. Either non-antag players are afraid of doing crime to the point that it's restricted to the worst graytiders, or the level of crime non-antags are comfortable with almost never gets reported. Either way, there is always an extreme level of clarity in who is and is not an EoC, and that's what I want to target.

And of course, it seems you and I have very different experiences, because I've not known the average seccie to pass by a chance to random search someone if it means catching an antag. The fact that they're given the latitude to do random searches encourages the use of OOC knowledge to antag hunt. Part of my objective here is to invalidate at least some of that OOC knowledge by creating 'false positives' in the hunt for EoCs.

And lastly, I suppose that depends on what you qualify as reasonable. If by reasonable you mean 'allowed', then very little is unreasonable. My problem is that sec very often will push to the furthest extreme of what their position allows in order to get the strongest gear. This is allowed, but I wouldn't call it reasonable. This proposal isn't even aimed to change what they're allowed to lethal, just to slow the process of them escalating force by making it less clear if they're dealing with an EoC. This is also why I want to create more situations where clearly illegal gear is in the hands of non-EoCs, to obfuscate the real EoCs.

 

I think the bulk of the work regarding this is examining space law and balancing what gear minor antags get. The antags themselves would only be altered forms of tots, and I don't think that adding possible spawns to maint loot would be excessively difficult. It would obviously have a massive effect on security to know that there will be times that they will catch an antag and have to release them later, but in my experience at least, SOMETHING needs to change between EoCs and Sec, because imo that dynamic is in a miserable kill-or-be-killed state right now even if your antag objectives are pretty tame. This is my best idea for that.

[Mitchs98]

Most of what I'd say has already been said. However I'll touch on a few points that I don't think were. And, keep in mind, I'd be fine with minor antags in the round depending on how their objectives and them are handled.

1. 

17 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

it's relatively rare for non-EoCs to be brigged.

This is simply untrue. Non-EOCs get brigged CONSTANTLY often even more than actual antags do. There's almost always someone breaking Space Law, and doing so doesn't mean they're self antagging(in a good chunk of cases, anyways).

2.

17 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

forces Sec to make use of the non-perma part of the brig

Security already does this, frequently.

3.

17 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

thrown in perma for having a stetchkin in their bag.

A Stetchkin is C-Class. Unless you're committing crime with it, usually shooting someone unwarranted, you won't land yourself in perma for having it unless the security team in question has no idea what's on the contraband list.

4.

17 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

Space Law does too much to facilitate security's activities, and should instead be more of a hindrance

Space Law shouldn't be designed to hinder security and their activities, no. While I'm all for giving security more to do on particularly slow shifts and more stuff for the Detective and Magistrate to do; I am wholeheartedly against any sort of design that's just 'Make this more frustrating for X job in order to attempt to make it more engaging/facilitate more RP'.

5.

17 hours ago, alphaJackal said:

force Security to reconsider bringing out lethals.

This is also something I've seen mentioned a lot throughout your suggestion. The very vast majority of cases security already doesn't immediately jump to lethals unless they're legally allowed to do so or the situation is extreme enough to warrant it(in which case, they're typically allowed to use it). And if they do, they'll be banned or warned.

Now. As for the suggestion itself. I'd much rather them be more sort of nuisance makers, light sabotage and such, certain specific steal objectives that aren't any sensitive items. As if you include sensitive items you're more than likely going to get perma'd regardless of having S-Class. 

I feel they could work. But they shouldn't just be 'Traitor but with gear limitations'.

[alphaJackal]

1 hour ago, Mitchs98 said:

Most of what I'd say has already been said. However I'll touch on a few points that I don't think were. And, keep in mind, I'd be fine with minor antags in the round depending on how their objectives and them are handled.

1. 

This is simply untrue. Non-EOCs get brigged CONSTANTLY often even more than actual antags do. There's almost always someone breaking Space Law, and doing so doesn't mean they're self antagging(in a good chunk of cases, anyways).

2.

Security already does this, frequently.

3.

A Stetchkin is C-Class. Unless you're committing crime with it, usually shooting someone unwarranted, you won't land yourself in perma for having it unless the security team in question has no idea what's on the contraband list.

4.

Space Law shouldn't be designed to hinder security and their activities, no. While I'm all for giving security more to do on particularly slow shifts and more stuff for the Detective and Magistrate to do; I am wholeheartedly against any sort of design that's just 'Make this more frustrating for X job in order to attempt to make it more engaging/facilitate more RP'.

5.

This is also something I've seen mentioned a lot throughout your suggestion. The very vast majority of cases security already doesn't immediately jump to lethals unless they're legally allowed to do so or the situation is extreme enough to warrant it(in which case, they're typically allowed to use it). And if they do, they'll be banned or warned.

Now. As for the suggestion itself. I'd much rather them be more sort of nuisance makers, light sabotage and such, certain specific steal objectives that aren't any sensitive items. As if you include sensitive items you're more than likely going to get perma'd regardless of having S-Class. 

I feel they could work. But they shouldn't just be 'Traitor but with gear limitations'.

There's very little I can respond to here that doesn't amount to 'My experience with this game has been vastly different than yours'. Points 1, 2 and 5 count as this. Not much more to say unless someone brings out statistics.

3: You're the second person to fixate on the stetchkin despite it not really being salient to the point made, which is that generally speaking the crew has no reason to hold on to illegal maint loot because of the risks associated.

4: If not being able to immediately whip out the lasers is a cause of frustration, maybe security attracts the wrong kind of players. Sec's job should involve a bit of investigation before the gunplay, in my humble opinion.

[Hrulj]

I think minor antag roles that allow people to rob, to break in and steal non major items, to form a gang in maints and extort, sell drugs and hell I’d even add murder would muddy waters enough to the point where sec actually has to do an investigation of some sort. As it stands - if someone breaks in somewhere, kills someone, kidnaps someone or even beats someone up, they’re an antag and all antags are to be permad if not killed on sight. Detective and magistrate rarely if ever get to do their jobs. Detectives experience consists of going where called using scanner and reading out print and dna then get ignored the rest of the round. 
 

It would also help deal with going to red ASAP and random searches ruining antags days. Someone got beaten up and murdered in maints. Time to investigate. Instead of go on red we got X threat. Time to call Gamma and ERT. 

[Sonador]

I am vehemently against this idea as people already do this all the time without the permission to do so. Paradise has an incredible problem with tiders. Whenever I play security, my attention is constantly being divided between major, life-threatening antagonists aboard, and people with about two braincells being as annoying as humanly possible because it's funny to them. I'm always on the fence about ahelping this kind of conduct because it's hard for me to discern where the line is between an IC issue, whose entire purpose it is to be handled by security, and genuine self-antagging. Often I get no reply at all when I do, so I've chalked this up to being just permitted conduct.

I usually limit reporting tiding to when there's a major station threat and the people smearing poop on the walls are actually risking security getting rolled. As Captain, I typically make an announcement to cool it with being idiots before I ahelp it as well, so if I get hit with "IC issue" I can usually respond with "It's been handled IC, now it's time for intervention." The last thing I think we really need right now is sanctioned tiding, it's just going to add on to an already significant problem. The existing tiders are also going to use this as another line to toe and take it way too far. No thank you.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Sonador

[TheBadPerson]

Interesting idea, could add some flair to the usual criminality/antaggery. I think the key would for them to have focused objectives to prevent them from acting as full blown operatives though. 
 

I think I thieving system similar to contracting could be cool. Steal certain items for credit payouts instead of TC. Something like that. Issue is would it be fun? I dunno. Maybe? 

[Sirryan2002]

(we probably shouldn't be reviving 5 month dead threads) but I'll throw my 2 cents in here since this is being talked about again.

Lets define the issues being discussed first: There is not enough RP between antagonists and security officers

Roleplay at its most basic level is putting yourself into a certain role or position with motivations, believes, and core values which heavily influences the choices you make in-game. In this case, we're talking about how players act when they envision themselves as security officers and how they act when they envision themselves as traitors. I do not believe people have an issue roleplaying as these roles, you just don't like how these positions interact with each other when players are roleplaying in them. Furthermore, you think that because of the design of our game mechanics, the roleplaying leads most often to violence instead of interactions you consider more valuable like in-game chatting, bartering, and non-violent exchanges between officers and traitors.

So I'll impart my first suggestion here, don't try to force player behavior, incentivize them to act in the way you want. Traitors are still nonetheless violent and intense when pursuing what you consider to be minor objectives, they know that if they get caught its likely game-over unless they prepared by not bringing and s-class or committing 400+ crimes. Security does not know the level of intensity of antags so changing their objectives while hijack/murder/etc objectives still exist will not lower their level of escalation, so antagonists will match this by always being violent even if they have minor objectives. You need to give players rewards for being non-violent.

There is absolutely zero incentive not to be violent in antag/sec interactions (besides being punished for breaking server rules) which IMO is poor gameplay overtime. Officers first need some sort of progression structure that can be sped up by being corrupt, such as being able to get slightly better equipment with space cash (so briberies :)). 2nd, one thing that could be implemented that will also fix a lot of other issues is implementing buyable / choosable objectives instead of handing them out at round-start. Players should be able to choose objectives that match their playstyle. These can even be objectives--like you were saying--that are minor enough that it won't land them in perma, which means traitors get a much more softer start to their round which won't merc them for a minor mistake.

[AidanFair]

What about this:

Minor antag organization: The Super Villainous and Very Evil Spy Network of Incompetence

Minor antag objectives: Steal the captain's rubber ducky and covertly put it in the Kitchen; then report the chef for theft. Chug two entire bottles of vodka in the CMO's office and remain there until discovered. Tell a terrible joke that doesn't make sense and repeat it three times over intercom; and kidnap Ian; demand the HoP make you the new clown; If they comply, return Ian's corpse to them. Turn yourself into a monkey and steal all the cheese on the station; hide it in the RD's office; then convert back to your original form and report them to security for cheese theft while implicating yourself as the actual culprit. Disguise yourself as an unknown greytider and electrocute yourself while hacking the doors of the Bridge; Drop a book on hacking; And continue to shock yourself until you are arrested; With your bag full of shoes. Get arrested for a minor crime within the first 15 minutes of your shift; Then remain in prison the entire shift by continually failing to break out; While being super polite to everyone except other prisoners.

BLOW UP THE ENGINE AND GIB EVERYONE YOU CAN! HONK! (Don't do this I'm joking)

Actually, I don't think these ideas are very good. Never mind.