A policy change to EOC clause in spacelaw.

[Shadowradar1212]

so, as it currently, stands EOC, under space law is the following;

"Execution/Imprisonment - If an Enemy of the Corporation has not committed any Capital Crimes they are to be placed in Permanent Imprisonment (Permabrig/Solitary/Labor Camp/Exile) without exception."

 

I find several issues with this, while it works for most situations, its implications is that an antagonist will always be round removed to the permabrig without any, exemptions if confirmed as one, now while this works normally and theoretically parole exists *(it usually doesn't get used so good luck), it does have quite a few flaws.

 

1: new players introduced to antagonistic roles, will be removed from the round without exception if caught with traitor gear, this can even include their starting nuke core kit or the like, especally if they don't know what it is.

2: space explorers/miners with bloodreds pretty much get removed from the round. of course the simple answer is, don't board the station with one but, under the clause "without exception", they're basically in confinement till a CC fax/announcement otherwise. like say one winds up dead from mining fauna in one, but they get recovered and the suit isn't stripped, its impossible to turn in contraband while dead. the same albeit far less likely cirumstances would be during space exploration and drifting to station.

3: continuous reduction of antagonists in a round, as well as absolutely no lee-way for antagonists caught red handed by really, say two antagonists buy a surplus crate but a borg maint wandering rolls in and security see them over cameras, or a vampire outted by starvation while AFK, security are pretty much forced to permabrig them, though to be fair with the very latter its fair enough reasoning considering that vamps are a reasonable threat.

4: not much freedom or leeway in how security gets to handle a confirmed antagonist, barring permabrigging every, single time. it also limits RP quite bit since antagonists will always be extremely hostile towards security as being caught by security, even if you de-escalate non lethally always means perma, surrender has absolutely zero benefit and escalation is only ever higher when sec and antagonists are pitted against eachother.

5: really really, bad/unlucky odds for antagonists can't be handled with leeway ICly currently. basically if you wind up in a really, bad situation. like security walking in on your surplus crate, a very few blood points as a vampire or starving as one or just caught in a random search upon rolling midtraitor/doing your own thing as a traitor/vampire with a nuke core kit in bag but literally haven't managed to do anything else, you're basically removed from the round without any exemption.

6: sentences still last a rather hefty time, especally with 2 hour rounds, 30-15 minutes can really set you quite back. my proposal below could be modified to account for breaking your short-term cell if security lets you off the hook as well.

 

I'd propose the following, changes to the EOC clause, under space law.

"If an Enemy of the Corporation has not commited any Capital Crimes, they are subject to Permanent Imprisonment (Permabrig/Solitary/Labor Camp/Exile) for the current or any future arrests, regardless of crimes at the discretion of the magistrate; if no magistate is present then perma confinement is subject to captain/security discretion.

An EOC may request a trial for permabrigging which can be declined as long as reasonable circumstances are present (IE, overwhelming threats, low security staffing, ERT present, biohazard present, etc). An EOC is always able to request a trial for contined confinement further down the line if they have not commited any capital offenses.

Confirmed EOCs are also subject to random searches regardless of alert level, demotion from any jobs capable of station damages (engineer, atmospheric technician, scientist, security, heads of staff, etc) and are to be tracker implanted and set to parole if not under confinement.

Vampires are to be implanted with a chemical implant, loaded with holy water preferably in its entirety while on release as well as marked in records.

EOCs with removed tracker implants are to be re-detained and implanted or subject to confinement as per arrest protocol above for EOCs."

 

This gives security a lot more leeway than current EOC treatment, it also encourages antagonists to act towards security in good faith, since skipping to immedately backchatting or spam resisting cuffs can just result in harsh treatment and permabrigging. as well as allowing security to be more relaxed in arrests on quieter rounds if they feel like it. Compared to forcing a yes/no, it also makes security unpredictable to face as an antagonist, especally if circumstances change.

It also gives IAAs some potental extra work to investigate into, finding out their exact confirmed crimes during a trial which could finally exist for once on quiet shifts. instead of every EOC goes to perma silently and the rest of the shift is a greenshift, which is the current case. especally as security will need some reason to deny one without anything going on.

EOCs are still subject to the rest of the law, so if they crime too hard, they'll still get bapped for it, they just have the chance to remain crew albiet with far less rights and leeway.

 

 

Surrendering EoCs also is something I've haven't accounted for in this suggestion but eh, one step at a time.

[Biolock]

I absolutely love all of these suggestions. Anything that brings more roleplay to the antagonist-security interactions can be nothing but positive.

[Rufus]

I have seen EOCs get off the hook several times for different reasons in normal game play, it just depends on what;s going on. Massive bio hazard threats to the station can see perma prisoners being released to help the crew on probation, I have seen perma prisoners get out on parole for things such as good behavior or miners that found s class on lava land being let out on parole, capital crimes can request a trial from the magi, and there is always the possibility of them breaking out/ someone else breaking them out of perma. 

[Sonador]

I'm all for giving the magistrate further say in whether or not anyone really ends up in the permanent brig without a trial. A trial is deeply unpopular because it takes an age to complete and it's really just an invitation for tiders to be assholes or antags to cause chaos; but giving the magistrate the authority to rule in the "spirit of the law," which is a real doctrine of law, when determining if an EoC really is a threat to the station/blew it badly enough that they deserve it would be a great way to further improve the relevance of the role.

I'd also like to see parole take a larger role than "the station is on fire and literal prison labor is one of our only shots at it." If an EoC or other p-brigged player were to exhibit remorse, good behavior in the brig, and otherwise give security/the magistrate a reason to think that they are no longer a threat, I'd love for the magistrate to be able to have wider discretion in granting parole.

I understand that in terms of antags vs. crew, pbrig is there as a "you lose" condition, but that doesn't mean that the player should have to cryo or remain in permanent brig unless they riot/break out/are broken out if they just want to keep playing.

[Mitchs98]

I'd be all for allowing the Magistrate the ability to have more leeway when deciding to perma or not perma EOC, I'd even be up for allowing them more opportunities for parole. However I massively disagree with trials. They take forever to complete and they really are pointless 90% of the time. Almost every single arrest is cut and dry with a mountain of evidence which turns trials into the EOC in question just pleading for mercy and trying to get off charges whilst wasting everyone's time.

I also disagree with allowing the Captain permission to have more leeway when permabrigging/paroling. I also firmly disagree with giving all of security that power. They, frankly, can't be trusted to use good judgement in instances like this a good chunk of the time. 

Not only that being an antagonist should land you with more than a slap on the wrist when caught, encouraging otherwise outside of specific situations I.E good behavior, non-violent, etc. is not how I believe we should do things pretty much ever. It shouldn't be the norm, but I would personally like the option to exist. I simply feel it should be delegated to Magistrate's only.

[ExGame]

There is nothing stopping you from just not following space law to the letter and let obvious new players or non-antag antags go even if they through special circumstances technically fall under EoC. Because being an enemy of the corporation is a bit more than just fullfilling a bunch of formal criteria in a law book.

But if someone higher in CoC decides to overrule you on this for some godforsaken reason and decide to perma the assistant who held an emag in his hand for 10 seconds, then he would do the same even after some space law change giving you more leeway.

Edited February 2, 2023 by ExGame

[Gatchapod]

17 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

1: new players introduced to antagonistic roles, will be removed from the round without exception if caught with traitor gear, this can even include their starting nuke core kit or the like, especally if they don't know what it is.

How is that a problem? You fail, you learn to not repeat what led to a failure, you rinse and repeat until you succeed.

17 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

2: space explorers/miners with bloodreds pretty much get removed from the round. of course the simple answer is, don't board the station with one but, under the clause "without exception", they're basically in confinement till a CC fax/announcement otherwise. like say one winds up dead from mining fauna in one, but they get recovered and the suit isn't stripped, its impossible to turn in contraband while dead. the same albeit far less likely cirumstances would be during space exploration and drifting to station.

There is close to no reason to wear a BRH ever. Space explorers already have space suits. Miners already have better combat armours. Putting one on serves no other reason than to provoke security. Play with fire, get burnt.

17 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

3: continuous reduction of antagonists in a round, as well as absolutely no lee-way for antagonists caught red handed by really, say two antagonists buy a surplus crate but a borg maint wandering rolls in and security see them over cameras, or a vampire outted by starvation while AFK, security are pretty much forced to permabrig them, though to be fair with the very latter its fair enough reasoning considering that vamps are a reasonable threat.

Continuous reduction of antagonists in a round is fully intended. The other options are no reduction or round-ending all antags at once. Both are even worse than what we have.
It is also countered by midround antagonists.

17 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

4: not much freedom or leeway in how security gets to handle a confirmed antagonist, barring permabrigging every, single time. it also limits RP quite bit since antagonists will always be extremely hostile towards security as being caught by security, even if you de-escalate non lethally always means perma, surrender has absolutely zero benefit and escalation is only ever higher when sec and antagonists are pitted against eachother.

Security gets a lot of freedom between perma, labour camp, exile and execution. Giving security an option that is basically not round-ending for an antagonist would only breed more salt, as all antagonists would expect to get it regardless of their actions.
Antagonists being hostile towards security is fully intended. They're antagonists.
I don't see how it limits RP, either. It actually gives you new RP opportunities as you can be openly hostile towards security and back your words with actions.

17 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

5: really really, bad/unlucky odds for antagonists can't be handled with leeway ICly currently. basically if you wind up in a really, bad situation. like security walking in on your surplus crate, a very few blood points as a vampire or starving as one or just caught in a random search upon rolling midtraitor/doing your own thing as a traitor/vampire with a nuke core kit in bag but literally haven't managed to do anything else, you're basically removed from the round without any exemption.

Bad luck happens to everyone. All you can do is learn how to reduce chances of it happening.
But let's assume we give antagonists leeway for bad luck. Do we also give security leeway for bad luck? I.e. running alone into two changelings is really unlucky, and the antagonists will freely take advantage of that.
This goes back to point 4, where everyone would expect leeway because luck is almost always a factor.

18 hours ago, Shadowradar1212 said:

6: sentences still last a rather hefty time, especally with 2 hour rounds, 30-15 minutes can really set you quite back. my proposal below could be modified to account for breaking your short-term cell if security lets you off the hook as well.

This barely affects antagonists. I think I have never temporarily brigged an antagonist for more than 15 minutes. It's non-antagonists who rack up insane timers, and they usually deserve them. Antagonists who play full stealth usually know they're clean and are cooperative, leading to security often minimizing sentences or outright turning blind eyes to pettier crimes.

 

Overall, this is yet another suggestion that heavily favours antagonists at the expense of security players. Should it be implemented, security players would deal with even more shittalking for genuinely just trying to do their jobs and having some fun in a video game.

[TheBadPerson]

Here’s the problem. Anything that complicates processing for security creates a massive time burden. This is especially notable if there are multiple disruptive antags at play.
 

Processing a single vampire is already a dangerous time consuming pain in the ass. Can you imagine if there were multiple loud vamps running rampant, and sec gets bogged down having to chem implant and parole one because they technically didn’t commit a capital crime? 
 

This would also get abused by antags as well by skirting the letter of the law to avoid perma charges as well. If I have a kill objective, I could kidnap the target with S class gear, and then get out of perma on the grounds that I merely kidnapped them and didn’t attempt murder. 
 

I can guarantee if this change was implemented myself and others would abuse it to the fullest to make things a nightmare for security. 
 

As for explorers and BRH’s, I do agree they shouldn’t be perma’d for it. I always drop the charge to possession unless they’re being blatantly criminal. The problem is most sec players don’t use any form of discretion and simply go by the explicit letter of the law, which usually makes things boring and annoying. 

[procdrone]

I also dont like your proposed change, i dont have time RN to write a full wall of text explaining how, but it would disrupt the whole balance, make antags even more insufferable, oversaturate the round with evildoers, and make security even more pitiful to play (it already quite is, everyone who plays HoS is either new or wants a terrible time, you can't prove me wrong)