Admin Complaint, Norwest, LforLouise

[LforLouise]

Admin(s) Key: Norwest
Your ckey (Byond username): LforLouise
Your Discord name (if applicable): xLouise#0386

Date(s) of incident: 16th January 2023 (and dates I don't know prior to this)

ROUND ID: Not Available

Nature of complaint: Misapplication of rules
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: Not Appealed Yet

Brief description: Antag Banned for things I believe to be within the rules, as well as things that I know are permitted. Also an incredibly long minimum time until I can appeal.

Full description of events:
I'll start this by saying that I have not currently wrote an appeal for this ban as it hasn't been 6 months.
This will be a long complaint, and I'm sorry for that, but everything I am saying here relates to it.
This is also not my ban appeal, and please don't treat it as such, I'll write an appeal when I want to.
As of the 16th of January, I've been banned from all special roles. The full ban reason is:

Spoiler

Frequent and consistently problematic behavior as an antagonist, including:
-attempting to maximize the number of 'legitimate' kills allowed per round by 'assisting' every other antagonist around,
-frequent unnecessary permakilling, including decapitations and hiding bodies,
-unnecessary cases of "secbaiting" to provoke a response leading to more chances to kill, and
-frequent cases of complaining in both IC and OOC chat about others' behavior when caught.

I'm getting tired of cleaning up after the messes you cause every other round. You may appeal this ban no sooner than six months from now.

I've discussed this with Norwest on discord, and have received clarification, it was good clarification too, but I still believe that this is an unjust ban.
In the round I was banned, I killed 7 people, all of which were valid, though I was told this doesn't relate to my ban, even though in the discord discussion Norwest wrote:

Spoiler

"The issue is not any one of these cases. The issue is that you spent most of the round that I observed running around in major hallways and in the middle of major departments with changeling armour and an armblade out, and responding lethally the moment anyone tried to respond to a Kill-On-Sight threat wandering around in the open. That's the sort of thing which we can acknowledge happens, but with you, it happens constantly.
You rack up a large body count every time you play antagonist. This creates a lot of unhappy players, who feel their free time is being wasted, and that we admins are tolerating problematic behavior by letting you kill so many people. Dchat likes to salt, ofc, and we can (and do) dismiss a solid amount of it. However, it would be absurd to ignore it forever, and it's not unreasonable for people to be unhappy that you killed them. Which, again, happens a LOT.

Ok so if it happened constantly, am I not allowed to use halls to get from point A-B? Also, messes, yes, antags do create messes, people will always ahelp about themselves being killed, even if they were in the wrong, for example, one of the 7 people I killed that round was a scientist who locked me in a locker and dragged me towards where a fight between security and some assistant was happening, so I broke the locker and killed them, they were killed via random chance decap, I did not hide their head or their body, I left them both where they died, in the middle of science hall.
Security play security to fight antags, and it's expected for them to die, if they're unhappy about dying as security, they shouldn't play security. People who do stuff like locking antags in lockers then dragging them towards security (which as far as I know is validhunting) should also expect to be killed, and should not be mad that they died. But then again, this apparently wasn't related to my ban so I'll move on.

"-attempting to maximize the number of 'legitimate' kills allowed per round by 'assisting' every other antagonist around,"
Now I'm not allowed to help other antagonists? I was always told (by other admins) that helping antags complete their objectives, provided the other antag isn't hijack, is permitted. I always try to help other antags, I don't consider myself good enough to complete my objectives alone anyway, and I've been playing for over 1700hrs. (or around 1500hrs at the time of the ban, but my thoughts still haven't changed).
I don't play antagonist to kill other players, I play antagonist so I don't get bored with the monotony of normal rounds (and to be fair, I was slowly starting to get bored of antagonist). AKA I do not play to win, I play to have fun, and if I can help others win, I've had fun, even if it doesn't mean I complete my objectives within the first 30 minutes of the round.

"-frequent unnecessary permakilling, including decapitations and hiding bodies,"
I do not hide bodies unless they are my target or have constantly tried to kill me as non sec (which has happened only 2 or 3 times).
Everyone I've talked to does not consider decapitations permakilling unless you hide the brain. On the round I was banned on, I got really lucky with changeling armblade decap, 5/7 people I killed were decapped, if I had any choice in it I would've just wanted them to die or be severely wounded that they engage, but due to the lack of self preservation rules, or other reasons, no one wants to disengage first.

"-unnecessary cases of "secbaiting" to provoke a response leading to more chances to kill,"
Every security member I killed on the round I was banned on was left either with suit sensors on, thrown in the halls, or in Rurik's case, left with another dead officer who had suit sensors. Example; myself and another changeling, as well as a traitor in the round I was banned on, was in a maint room just south of the Experimentor, talking and planning on what to do, when a lone secoff who I forget the name of came in and was then armbladed, then ran away. About 2 minutes later, Dahk rushes the same room solo, and he decided not to disengage, and was killed for his efforts. Another minute or 2 whilst we were looting Officer Dahk's body for sec gear, Officer Rurik came in, and was also killed, I then absorbed Rurik for a reason I forget. Before we killed Rurik, I decided to leave Dahk with sensors on, and Rurik's body next to Dahk's, this was intentionally to avoid causing too much chaos, and to allow them to be revived. This was not to bait more sec to the location, as we had left soon after Rurik was killed (then 2 minutes later I was lockered by the previously mentioned scientist in scichem).

"-frequent cases of complaining in both IC and OOC chat about others' behavior when caught."
This is the only thing in the ban I do not see as unjustified, as I constantly did it. I was warned by Eric to calm it down in looc about it, but a few days later I got pissed off with sec using some reeeeal shitty behaviour and LOOC'd about it again, and was warned by Eric again, who was kind enough to actually give me warnings about LOOC'ing, instead of straight up antagbanning me without so much as a hint to calm down, like this ban. Yes, obviously I did stop LOOC salting after the 2nd warning, and even after the 1st I tried to stop.

"You may appeal this ban no sooner than six months from now."
And to top it all of, I'm not even allowed to appeal this ban for 6 months. 2 months I can get (note that it hasn't been 2 months since the appeal either), hell, even 3 months at a push, but 6 months for something I wasn't even warned for? That seems incredibly long for this.

 

As I told Norwest, I don't dislike him, I enjoy his events and think he's a great admin, usually, at least. I just think that this judgement was, to put it bluntly, awful, considering the circumstances.
There were alot of things myself and Norwest discussed in discord DMs, but if I listed them all here it would take until I can appeal the ban to read the entire thing let along write it, and I know you don't want to waste that amount of time on this.
I'm sorry if this came across as rude, I didn't intend it to - English isn't my first language, and I'm from England born to English parents, lol.
If you do have any questions, or want me to add anything, please inform me, I'm more than happy to explain anything or add anything.

 

Thanks,
Louise.

Edited March 5, 2023 by LforLouise
I forgot to press Enter for a new paragraph once.

[Sirryan2002]

Hello and thank you for writing this admin complaint, apologies for not getting to it sooner, I have been rather busy and this is an extensive complaint. The complaint in questions deals with Misapplication of rules so I will be directly addressing that in my reply in regards to "Rule 6: Play Antagonists Responsibly"

We don't normally just antag ban players for a single incident unless it's extraordinarily bad, in this case it was a pattern of issues surrounding your gameplay as an antagonist. I have had multiple admins and other players come forward about you overstepping the bounds for acceptable antagonist behavior, particularly in unnecessarily killing of crew members and going far beyond your objectives. This ban was justified and needs to be handled in the ban appeal section of the forums, not here.

 As for the 6 month cap, I do not believe that it is constructive to your improving your behavior due to its extensive length in time, therefor I am removing that aspect of your ban. Appeal it whenever you feel comfortable. However, this doesn't mean it will be accepted automatically and you still need to play for a period of time without racking up notes for server rule break (Such as the 14th of March). I recommend at least a month minimum without any additional notes.

As for this complaint, the rules were not misapplied. Before I resolve this complaint I will leave it open for 2 weeks if you'd like to respond.