Complaint against Abydos2 - Unnecessary overreaction to IC actions/Unnecessary warning

[Contra]

Admin(s) Key: Abydos2
Your ckey (Byond username): Bluecloud117
Your Discord name (if applicable): @Contrabang

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 6/25/23 (possibly 6/26 in GMT, I am not sure.)

ROUND ID: 36296

Nature of complaint:
Unnecessary warning/General situation complaint(?)/Clarification?
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:

N/A

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements):

Atmos tech trespassed into a kitchen, when we (me, and a sous chef with boxing gloves) were charging 15 credits for food, as is allowed per SOP. They were CQC'd into stam crit, and charged for the stolen food. We were about to throw them out when we were both admin frozen. We were told we beat him to "near death", and that we should have non-lethally removed them, despite attempting to do so.

Full description of events:

I highly recommend reading the logs here: https://imgur.com/a/9pRXslV If needed, I can also provide the logs from the sous chef.

Central Command was making announcements about there being too many chickens (because there was like 100 of them, spread across the station.) I was desperately trying to kill some and gib them, because the captain kept dragging chickens into my kitchen, so I was pretty distracted. I was cooking with a sous chef, where they would tend to the counter, and I was cooking and dealing with other things. Only the normal chef comes with CQC though, so they grabbed some boxing gloves to help keep the tide away.

We were charging 15 credits for a single meal, fairly low compared to the 50 or 100 credit prices of vendors. However, some people still haven't realized that we have a proper economy, so they get mad, or try to tide/trespass in to steal food. This usually happens upwards of 3 times a shift, sometimes even from security officers. Most chefs that make you pay for food follow a system, if you steal food, you pay for it, and security isn't called, mostly when on blue/red alert. If its green alert, sure, call security and get the problem solved, but it will take upwards of 5 to 10 minutes. Security is usually too busy dealing with antags or other tiders anyways. If you just make them pay for it, its quicker for everyone, including the thief.

Anyways, the actual event happened with an atmos tech named Clark Teagarden trespassed into the kitchen. They ran for the food table, and started eating things without paying. I notice, and help my sous chef stamina crit him. He ran into the corner, I knock him to the floor, and use CQC kick on him. This put him in stamcrit, and I put him in a chokehold (a move to sleep them) so we could safely deal with him. We made him pay for a single meal (despite him apparently having eaten multiple), and were about to put his ID back on him when we were both admin frozen.

We were told we were "beating him to near death, and robbing him." As shown later in the screenshots, they say themselves only 30-40 brute was done to them. Even this damage was on accident, because he cornered himself, which made the kicks throw him into the door (In the moment, I did not realize this). I tried to explain that I was only using stamina moves on them, and that CQC got changed to stamina-based move set, because I knew Abydos2 had been away from the game for a while. We were both left frozen for a while, presumably so they could check logs/talk to both of us.

We then received the message about getting a warning. I was trying to stay calm in the adminhelp, and explain what was going on, but it felt like I wasn't being listened to at all. We were in the middle of throwing him out and putting his ID on him when we were frozen. If he was hurt anymore, even enough to be slowed, we would have brought him to medical. However, we didn't get a chance to because both of us were admin frozen for a fairly IC situation. At most, we could have been charged assault (which was an accident, because they cornered themself when we were non-lethally dealing with them) and robbery (or more likely petty theft, as the 15 credits is well under the 250 credit limit, and we fully intended to return the ID). 

This whole incident made me feel pretty terrible, I felt demeaned, ignored, and belittled. We were told I was "essentially killing him", by trying to put him in stamcrit. I felt as if my actions fell well within the rules, particularly with rule 7. We had been telling people all shift, they needed to pay, and I feel its pretty expected if you break into kitchen, you will get CQC'd by the chef. I was told to non-lethally detain them, and that's what I was trying to do. I don't know what else I could have done, I couldn't even disarm him because I notably had CQC. I cryo'd shortly after this because it had really ruined my whole night. I felt like I was being accused of purposely trying to kill them, even though I wasn't, and didn't even come close to even putting them in crit.

I feel like this warning is unfair and this admin freezing event was unneeded. At most, we committed 2 medium crimes, excluding the fact that the person we were trying to stop was stealing from our business. I particularly want to note that our intent was to detain the person so we could get them out of kitchen, my sous chef using boxing gloves (not punches), and me using CQC, notably the chokehold. I used no purposely damaging moves, and all the damage that was done to them was accidental because of the environment. A lot of the combat action happened very quickly, when I was thinking about other things. (Call back to the central command announcement about chickens.)

I think this was a pretty standard kitchen event, with a large overreaction. If there was more time, I feel like they would have seen that we did intend to do the things they mentioned in their PM about the warning. I think at most, this should have been handled ICly, with an arrest made by security if needed. The adminfreeze that happened felt entirely unnecessary, and that our side wasn't listened to at all. 

I'd like this warning/note either removed or clarified for what I did wrong, because I honestly don't know what else to do/could have done. I don't feel that I broke any OOC rules, and I followed the expectations of my job IC. I didn't really want to make this, but it felt like I was talking to a brick wall in that adminhelp.

If this warning is justified, and the chef shouldn't be using their CQC like this... I really don't know what to say. Thank you for reading.

[Abydos]

Allow me to go over a few things;

 

1 hour ago, Contra said:

I notice, and help my sous chef stamina crit him. He ran into the corner, I knock him to the floor, and use CQC kick on him.

He didn't run into the corner himself, he was pushed there by your friend. You took one side, he took the other. You both effectively boxed him straight up into the corner of the room.

 

 

1 hour ago, Contra said:

I knock him to the floor, and use CQC kick on him. This put him in stamcrit, and I put him in a chokehold (a move to sleep them) so we could safely deal with him.

You didn't only just knock him onto the floor, and you were doing it way more than needed. He was already on the floor, with your friend whailing on him, effectively stun locking him and you still threw in extra hits, before doing the chokehold. You also confirmed later which I'll bring up, that you had completely forgotten or it slipped that, hitting people into walls / doors, damages them. This is coming from both of you, as both of you cornered him into one corner of the room,  with yourself hitting him with attacks that fling him backwards.. which, with nowhere to go, is on a door / wall, making it so he takes damage.

 

Spoiler

[2023-06-26T05:19:26] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,133,2) against Clark Teagarden (145,133,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:27] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,133,2) against Clark Teagarden (145,133,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:27] EMOTE: Clark Teagarden (145,133,2): screams!
[2023-06-26T05:19:27] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,133,2) against Clark Teagarden (145,133,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:28] EMOTE: Clark Teagarden (145,134,2): screams!
[2023-06-26T05:19:28] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,133,2) against Clark Teagarden (145,134,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:30] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(145,136,2) against Clark Teagarden (145,137,2): Melee attacked with Boxing

[2023-06-26T05:19:31] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (146,138,2): Grabbed passively
[2023-06-26T05:19:31] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (146,138,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking : grabbed
[2023-06-26T05:19:32] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(145,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (146,138,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:33] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,138,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Slam :  Slam
[2023-06-26T05:19:33] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,138,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:33] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,138,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking
[2023-06-26T05:19:33] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,138,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking : stomps on
[2023-06-26T05:19:34] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,137,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Kicked in the head with martial-art CQC Kick : Kick
[2023-06-26T05:19:34] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:35] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:35] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking
[2023-06-26T05:19:35] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking : stomps on
[2023-06-26T05:19:36] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:36] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Kicked in the head with martial-art CQC Kick : Kick
[2023-06-26T05:19:37] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:38] ATTACK: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)(146,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with Boxing
[2023-06-26T05:19:38] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Grabbed passively
[2023-06-26T05:19:38] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking : grabbed

[2023-06-26T05:19:38] SAY: Musket/(Clark Teagarden) (147,139,2):  'My food'

[2023-06-26T05:19:39] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Disarmed with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking
[2023-06-26T05:19:42] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Melee attacked with martial-art Restrain : Restrain

[2023-06-26T05:19:44] ATTACK: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)(147,138,2) against Clark Teagarden (147,139,2): Put into a chokehold with martial-art Close Quarters Cooking

 

1 hour ago, Contra said:

We were told we were "beating him to near death, and robbing him." As shown later in the screenshots, they say themselves only 30-40 brute was done to them. Even this damage was on accident, because he cornered himself, which made the kicks throw him into the door (In the moment, I did not realize this). I tried to explain that I was only using stamina moves on them, and that CQC got changed to stamina-based move set, because I knew Abydos2 had been away from the game for a while. We were both left frozen for a while, presumably so they could check logs/talk to both of us.

 

I was double checking the combat logs, to get an idea of how bad the situation was as I had seen him get to about 50 brute and both of you didn't seem to be showing any signs of stopping (Guy with boxing gloves was constantly hitting for example). Both of you had actually completely forgotten about that throwing people into walls / doors, deals damage to people. On a normal throw, according to S34N, its about 9. On a CQC hit? It's more 22. As I conducted this test twice to make sure it was the exact amount.

 

The way I saw things, a guy had broken into the kitchen.. got cornered by the both of you as one pushed him towards the other, and you filled in the gap to close it. And both of you just started laying into the guy. The guy was already on the floor by your slam, and then being stunlocked from the boxing gloves. The guy with boxing gloves not so much.. but you with CQC / kicks, was actively harming him even when he was already down on the floor.. and the only way to harm someone on the floor in such a manner.. is when they are on the floor.

My conversation first with your friend:

 

Spoiler

[2023-06-26T05:20:21] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil): So.. why are you beating an atmospheric tech to death and then robbing him?

[2023-06-26T05:20:48] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Boxing gloves, he walked in without paying. Shouldn't have hurt him.

[2023-06-26T05:22:36] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Unless I'm wrong about boxing gloves being non-lethal? They don't hurt someone on the floor right?

[2023-06-26T05:22:39] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil): You were still harming him alongside your friend, you had dealt well over 30-40 brute on someone for absolutely no reason other than you could.

[2023-06-26T05:23:52] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Oof, yeah no the intention was not to do that much brute. It was to take him down and stop him from trespassing. Sorry for that.

[2023-06-26T05:24:22] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil): So you'll both be receiving a warning for this. If he stole, you can non-lethally throw him out, or call security. Not beat him to the point he needs to go to medical, when he's down and unable to fight back, and then rob him so he can't get out.

[2023-06-26T05:24:57] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Alright, I swear I was using the gloves though... Did they get knocked into the door doing the brute with harm-harm?

[2023-06-26T05:25:23] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil): Throwing people against walls / doors, does damage them yes. As both of you cornered him in a 1x1 gap.

[2023-06-26T05:26:30] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Yeah no that was a whoopsie, we were trying to stop him there, its why we stopped after he was knocked down.

[2023-06-26T05:27:09] ADMIN: PM: QuadDevil/(Eyes-Of-Devil)->Abydos2: Was just going to charge him for the food he already grabbed and have him out, but uh yeah. Is what it is I guess, sorry for the trouble.

 

And yourself:

 

Spoiler

[2023-06-26T05:20:17] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): So.. why are you beating an atmospheric tech to death and then robbing him?

[2023-06-26T05:20:34] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: We're taking their ID to pay for food, because they stole from us

[2023-06-26T05:20:44] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: We're going to let them out once they paid

[2023-06-26T05:20:46] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): So that warrants nearly beating him to death over it?

[2023-06-26T05:20:59] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: Its CQC, I wasn't harming him, it just does stam damage

[2023-06-26T05:21:24] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): You were harming him.

[2023-06-26T05:21:29] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): CQC harms.

[2023-06-26T05:21:43] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: CQC got reworked to be non-lethal so chef could use it

[2023-06-26T05:22:12] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: I was using the CQC kick, its description is "Harm Harm. Knocks opponent away and slows them. Will instead deal massive stamina damage, and mute opponents who are on the ground."

[2023-06-26T05:22:18] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): You were still harming him alongside your friend. You were beating him down to 30-40 brute.

[2023-06-26T05:22:42] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: I dont know where he got that brute damage, I was just using CQC

[2023-06-26T05:22:51] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): He got it from you.

[2023-06-26T05:23:09] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: The only move that does brute damage from what I know is consequtive CQC, which I wasnt using

[2023-06-26T05:24:17] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): So you'll both be receiving a warning for this. If he stole, you can non-lethally throw him out, or call security. Not beat him to the point he needs to go to medical, when he's down and unable to fight back, and then rob him so he can't get out.

[2023-06-26T05:29:08] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): Just a reminder, incase you've forgotten as well, you cornered him in a 1x1 gap and was constantly hitting him with CQC.. against a door / wall. Throwing people against doors / walls, damages them. You were essentially killing him.

[2023-06-26T05:30:46] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: The brute was not intentional, the harm harm move is just the way of doing majority of stamina damage. I didnt mean to kick him against the door

At which point, you then cryo'd and disconnected.

1 hour ago, Contra said:

This whole incident made me feel pretty terrible, I felt demeaned, ignored, and belittled. We were told I was "essentially killing him", by trying to put him in stamcrit. I felt as if my actions fell well within the rules, particularly with rule 7. We had been telling people all shift, they needed to pay, and I feel its pretty expected if you break into kitchen, you will get CQC'd by the chef. I was told to non-lethally detain them, and that's what I was trying to do. I don't know what else I could have done, I couldn't even disarm him because I notably had CQC. I cryo'd shortly after this because it had really ruined my whole night. I felt like I was being accused of purposely trying to kill them, even though I wasn't, and didn't even come close to even putting them in crit.

First off, I did not ignore anything you or your friend stated. The core of the matter I was getting into, which to me, was over the top 'self-defense'.

 

So let us recap. As I am ghosting around, I see the start of the fight as I was watching the bar, saw the atmo tech jump the counter into the kitchen and the 2nd chef with boxing gloves chase him upwards, you soon following on the other side.

Both of you corner him into the room. At the time, I didn't know that one of you had boxing gloves on (Same attack animation as a punch, same sound, ect), the guy with the boxing gloves start laying into him while you grab him and slam him. At this point, he's already on the floor.. practically well within a stunlock / stam crit at this point.. even with the guy whailing into him with boxing gloves, you then start to CQC him on the floor.

Twice, hitting him into the wall.. the only reason I marked "About 30-40" brute, was because of some of the food he ate gave him a temporary little heal so his wounds were not as bad.. but you were effectively giving him brain damage (Minor) and about 45 brute within two combos. Had you decided to do any more, or even before I had frozen you, he would of either ended up within crit, or broken bones with brain damage. it is why I was using the information available to me, at the time, to make a judgement that "There's a possibility theses two may end up killing him if they continue." 

 

It is why I said you were "essentially" killing him.. as he was taking active damage from your attacks, which, you yourself admitted, you had forgotten about or didn't realize. You said you were trying to deal with it non-lethally.. but the guy was already on the floor, your friend with boxing gloves had him effectively stamina locked but then you were hitting him when he is on the floor. He couldn't even do anything when you slammed him, he was essentially, stuck on the floor while two of you whailed on him with him being the only one taking any form of damage.

Quote

Violence between non-antags is acceptable to a degree, such as barfights and a few punches, but the expectation is that people are RPing sane individuals in a workplace. Murdering someone or beating them into crit for stealing from their workplace, insulting them, or other minor grievances is psychopathic behaviour and disallowed. If the other party is on the ground and you keep hitting them, you've clearly gone too far.

 

Kicking someone while they are down is not self defence - that’s just vengeance. While a few extra clicks can happen in the heat of combat, rendering someone unable to get back up may be treated as murder. There are no “castle doctrine” or “stand your ground” laws here.

 

Both of you didn't realize what you were doing, which is why it was left as a warning and both of you were reminded, that yes.. even CQCing people against walls / doors, hurts them and you were doing far more damage than you realized.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Abydos

[Contra]

9 hours ago, Abydos said:

He didn't run into the corner himself, he was pushed there by your friend. You took one side, he took the other. You both effectively boxed him straight up into the corner of the room.

He may have been pushed upwards, but he can't have been pushed to the side by either of us. Neither boxing nor CQC can disarm to shove people. He only could have willingly gone to the right, into that corner. Any pushing upward that did happen only happened by accident because you need to be close to do melee combat. 

 

9 hours ago, Abydos said:

You didn't only just knock him onto the floor, and you were doing it way more than needed. He was already on the floor, with your friend whailing on him, effectively stun locking him and you still threw in extra hits, before doing the chokehold. You also confirmed later which I'll bring up, that you had completely forgotten or it slipped that, hitting people into walls / doors, damages them. This is coming from both of you, as both of you cornered him into one corner of the room,  with yourself hitting him with attacks that fling him backwards.. which, with nowhere to go, is on a door / wall, making it so he takes damage.

 

As a player, I don't have the exact measurements of how much stamina damage someone has, especially in the moment. Boxing gloves can do anywhere between 5-8 stamina damage, so when in combat, I hardly considered them a factor in how much stam damage they had. I used CQC kick, because it is most non-lethal move available to the chef. I did the combo I knew to stunlock them, so I could get them out of the kitchen, if they were stunned before that because of the boxing gloves, I had no way of knowing that.

 

10 hours ago, Abydos said:

On a normal throw, according to S34N, its about 9. On a CQC hit? It's more 22. As I conducted this test twice to make sure it was the exact amount.

You were slamming them into a wall, Clark was slammed once into a freezer airlock.

I did some testing myself, replicating what happened in game. One hit against the airlock did 16.5 damage, two hits doing 33 damage. Even the most damage I could do, would require to them have been standing up first (which they weren't, because they were slammed), so they have throw speed 14, instead of 8. Even then, it still would have done under 40 damage. I don't know where they got the rest of the damage, but it couldn't have been from us.

Even then, the purpose was just to stunlock them, as shown by the chokehold maneuver I did. That is the last combat that happened, and there was plenty of time showing we weren't going to hurt them farther.

We had time to leave them, walk over to the counter, swipe their ID, click "select payment", and walk back, before being frozen and falsely accused of nearly murdering someone. If there was any more time, it would have been seen that we were going to throw them out of the kitchen.

If you waited more time, you would have seen we were not going to kill him. Even if he had 45 damage, that was no where near crit. 

10 hours ago, Abydos said:

You said you were trying to deal with it non-lethally.. but the guy was already on the floor, your friend with boxing gloves had him effectively stamina locked but then you were hitting him when he is on the floor. He couldn't even do anything when you slammed him, he was essentially, stuck on the floor while two of you whailed on him with him being the only one taking any form of damage.

My sous chef had hit them 7 times by the time they were on the floor from my CQC slam. This means they would have taken somewhere between 35 and 56 stamina damage. I didn't know how much stam damage they had taken, so yes I used CQC Kick on him. With one kick, this would have disabled him because of his stam damage, but I didn't know that, because there is no way to tell how much stamina damage someone has in the moment. He could have done something when he was slammed because he would not have entered stamina crit at this point. By the time he stopped moving, we both stopped attacking him, and I put him into a chokehold.

11 hours ago, Abydos said:

At which point, you then cryo'd and disconnected.

As for this, yes, I waited several minutes after the end of the freeze to wait for messages from you. After not receiving a message for a while, I cryo'd and left the game, because I felt like absolute shit after this interaction. I don't think that cryoing after something like that is unexpected

[Abydos]

3 hours ago, Contra said:

This means they would have taken somewhere between 35 and 56 stamina damage. I didn't know how much stam damage they had taken, so yes I used CQC Kick on him. With one kick, this would have disabled him because of his stam damage, but I didn't know that, because there is no way to tell how much stamina damage someone has in the moment.

Before the slam, your friend hit him 5 times. If a boxing punch does 5-8, that's 30-45. Slam does 50.

So by the time he was on the floor, he had 80-95 stamina. He was effectively down for the count.

 

He was then hit once more by your friend, doing the last 5-8 for 100/108 stamina. Followed up by your kick, that's 40 ontop, for 140/148. Max stamina damage someone can take is 120.

Again. Followed by the rest of your attacks and your friend, he was out of it. He had no way of fighting back, let alone doing anything, while stuck up against a wall / airlock, taking damage.

 

This is proven by both my tests, yourself, the logs and other admins who help me look over CQC damages.

 

3 hours ago, Contra said:

He may have been pushed upwards, but he can't have been pushed to the side by either of us. Neither boxing nor CQC can disarm to shove people. He only could have willingly gone to the right, into that corner. Any pushing upward that did happen only happened by accident because you need to be close to do melee combat.

If a person is being attacked, he wouldn't willingly go to the right or go up, the opposite side of the exit. He'd push back against one of you, who was pushing him into the corner which is what I saw. You said so yourself, your friend went around the corner to him.. meaning, he was pushed up by your friend. And you came around the other way, effectively cornering him.

 

3 hours ago, Contra said:

You were slamming them into a wall, Clark was slammed once into a freezer airlock.

This is an argue of schematics, as no matter which way it is, he was still taking brute damage. Had he fought back in anyway, it could be argued you would of kept on CQCing him.

 

3 hours ago, Contra said:

As for this, yes, I waited several minutes after the end of the freeze to wait for messages from you. After not receiving a message for a while, I cryo'd and left the game, because I felt like absolute shit after this interaction. I don't think that cryoing after something like that is unexpected

You didn't wait any moment of time. By the time I had messaged this to you as I was reading logs at the time.

 

Quote

[2023-06-26T05:29:08] ADMIN: PM: Abydos2->Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self): Just a reminder, incase you've forgotten as well, you cornered him in a 1x1 gap and was constantly hitting him with CQC.. against a door / wall. Throwing people against doors / walls, damages them. You were essentially killing him.

[2023-06-26T05:30:46] ADMIN: PM: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self)->Abydos2: The brute was not intentional, the harm harm move is just the way of doing majority of stamina damage. I didnt mean to kick him against the door

By the time I had sent that, and you sent a reply, you already ran off to cryo.

Quote

[2023-06-26T05:32:16] SAY: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self) (147,136,2):  'I can't do this anymore.'

[2023-06-26T05:32:20] SAY: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self) (147,136,2):  'my shift has been ruined'

[2023-06-26T05:32:55] ACCESS IN: Bluecloud117/(Heals-Thy-Self) - BYOND v514.1589

1 minute, 30 seconds.

So I apologize that I am not the machine I claim to be, as I have to read over multiple combat logs from 3 different people to get an idea of the scope and picture of the situation, as I was going off information I saw at the time, which was 2 people attacking someone, who was down for the count and taking damage. And that I need at least a few minutes to read over the log and don't immediately get back to you for such.

 

Which is again, because both of you had forgotten hitting people into objects, damages them. Which is why it was left as a warning and a reminder. The guy was down, didn't hit back in anyway, and was being beaten on. It was excessive over him simply taking 1 piece of food.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Abydos

[Sirryan2002]

Sorry for taking a moment to get back around to this.

I'm gonna to treat this admin complaint as being made for the following reasons: General Misconduct & Misapplication of the rules.

I'm gonna keep this short, I don't believe the rules were applied correctly in this situation, 40 brute is hardly "near death" and doesn't even take into account the context of people breaking into the kitchen. Chef CQC is designed precisely for situations like this; Whether or not this would have tread into rule breaking territory I do not know, since the noting GA froze both players they were unable to continue with what they were doing and therefor any prediction as to how far they would have gone is extrapolation and not really fair, especially considering both players have no prior history of doing stuff like this.

As for the general complaint about the noting GA's behaviour, I agree that your side of the story was not well taken into account which seems to have been carried over into this admin complaint. Admin complaints are not for arguments between the admin and OP, they're for stating the facts of the situation so that a head of staff can review it, I hope to find common ground and understanding here generally. The Game Admin team will be working over the next months on stuff like this as we take in our next wave of Trial Admins.

This note will be reversed and not held against you in the future, consider this admin complaint resolved.