On the Admin Application process and other unsolicited advice

[Sonador]

I know a bunch of the staff are going to come in here thinking I'm here to bitch about being rejected. No, I'm not here for that, you can relax. I promise.

First,

- Recently, I was rejected for an admin application. Fair do's. It was a nasty shock, and I'll get into why that is that below, but I just want to outline above all, I'm not here to debate that decision. It's your server and I'm sure your concerns are valid whether or not I subjectively agree with them.

- I was rejected for "concerns over (my) conduct in Discord on multiple occasions" and "concerns over conduct ingame." It was not elaborated upon further.

Far be it from me to tell you how to run your show, but I want to run something by you and just see if it makes sense. You don't need to reply (and, in fact, you can lock this if you're so inclined after I've posted it to prevent it running away from me and my original point) as you don't owe my anything and it'd be pretty silly of someone who was just rejected for a GA application to expect you to stand here and justify yourselves to me.

The objective of any well-placed criticism is for the person being criticized to improve. When you reject an admin application out of hand (or any application really) with vague messages like this, it can leave the person feeling alienated, wondering what it was they did wrong, and all around like they're a piece of shit. In the future, I'd recommend detailing at least a small portion of what, in particular, concerned the team enough to decide rejecting the application was appropriate. It's not always immediately apparent to someone what they're doing wrong - especially given the myriad SS13 servers out there, and what flies with them and what raises eyebrows here. The vague reply I got made me feel like real garbage in the sense that I wasn't even aware I was under scrutiny, let alone causing issues to the degree players/staff were taking issue with it. I don't know what I can do, at least in contemporality, to improve. Which leads me to my second and third points:

Unless you're noting stuff on player accounts for things that need to be kept on the downlow, such as tracking players for multikeying, metacomming, abusing exploits and such, you should really be mentioning it to them. No, that doesn't mean having an intellectual debate with them, because that would make anyone pull their hair out, god. But a single direct message (not an Admin-PM, direct message is another admin verb that makes blue "Admin Announcement"-like text pop up on the player's screen with a bwoink but no links to reply) to the player along the lines of, "Hey, there's no need to respond to this message, but I have appended a note to your account because you keep shoving players into the wall at random and that's seen as low-RP conduct here and something we'd like you to avoid. If you feel this note is in error or is unfair, you can file an appeal at (link to the admin complaint forum.)" Again, the objective is for the player to improve. All of the scant few times I've had admins confront me about conduct, it's been a positive experience, most of which I've had the opportunity to be ready to admit I was wrong, own up to it, and move forward without any further issues. If you just note things on a player's account without telling them, you're setting them up to fail. If it's big enough to concern you, it should be big enough to concern them too. Does that make sense? This is something that was taught to me during my training as a supervisor in public safety, and it definitely helped me be a better supervisor.

A cursory glance at my posts in the discord as I'm clearing them out reveal the lion's share was over 5 years ago in 2018. I think it's pretty self-explanatory that it's probably unfair to hold that against someone - I'm a much different person now than I was 5 years ago. No, this isn't a de-facto appeal against my rejection, again, I don't contest that, it's your show, and you don't owe me a justification; but where this turns from an objection to genuine advice is that holding things against someone several years in the past when there's no further evidence of recidivistic conduct isn't a standard I'd hold against anyone.

All in all, my post can be summed up as, if you see something, say something. Constructive feedback is critical for anyone to improve regardless of if they're in a professional environment or shoving over the clown and farting on them. I'm not expecting justification, and you can take, leave, or laugh at this totally unsolicited advice from an admin app reject if you like; I'm just here to try to help things be better wherever I go. If you're feeling generous, I'd like to ask for a DM either on Discord or here on the forums with my current list of notes so I can see what I'm doing wrong and be a better player. If you're not up for doing that, that's okay, but please don't post it here in the thread if you're going to rebuke me, I'm not here to contest the findings of my application and it would be even more humiliating than the rejection outright.

Thanks for reading, and I wish the budding new trialmins a horiffic robusting all the best as they join the team.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Sonador

[S34N]

Yo, this thread is most definitely going to be the subject of a reply from a CM or Headmin, mainly because the scope of it requires input at their level, and headmins are the primary responsible party for the initial stages of admin applications.

That being said, just to address one point:

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If you're feeling generous, I'd like to ask for a DM either on Discord or here on the forums with my current list of notes so I can see what I'm doing wrong and be a better player.

Our policy for disclosing/discussing notes has been unchanged for a long time. GA's simply won't do this with you. If you have concerns over your note history and have a valid reason to want a discussion or disclosure, you need to message a headmin. They are the only ones that will even consider this.

Edited July 6, 2023 by S34N

[Sonador]

Thanks for the reply.

In that case, you can disregard that request unless a headmin wants to consider it; but again, no reply or justification is needed here unless they feel like volunteering it - if they think my advice is invalid, it's totally okay to ignore it and move on. I'm not demanding anything here, nobody owes me anything, I'm just passing on some suggestions based on experiences I've picked up over 10 years plus of community moderation and professional training. That's all!

Edited July 6, 2023 by Sonador

[Sirryan2002]

I think it's a bit naïve to make a very public forum post at which anyone in the community (or 3rd party visitors) can see that criticizes the server and then request that the server administration not respond to it. You've always been able to reach out to the heads of staff in DMs and make inquiries as to application rejections or get info on previous notes/warnings. So to address your suggestions and explain some ways in which we run the server:

First and foremost: we don't hire administrators to be people's friends or teach them how to play the game within our community guidelines; learning our guidelines and rules is a prerequisite to playing the game and the admin team's job is to enforce them when they're broken. When staff do this It's enforcement, not a criticism of the player; Unfortunately some players take it this way, which therein lies the difficulty of being a GA. Community outreach and good relationship building is an additional expectation of being a GA but not the main one.

Constructive feedback and admin-to-player conversations have a myriad of benefits, namely it helps reduce rule-breaking and tension. This is of course, at the cost of significant time and energy. Some admins note hundreds of players a month and ban about 1/5 that amount of people. There is little room in that time frame to have solid conversations with each player, not to mention that some players don't just take notes/bans sitting down and will fight back (I'm done having 1 hour conversations with players over bans). Personally, for me, I worked an 11 hour shift yesterday and got home at 2AM, and now in the few 3-4 hours I have before I go back to work today I'm taking 30 minutes to sit down and reply to you. This is a story that is similar to other GAs who also work, have families, or other commitments which made time a valuable and scarce commodity for them. EDIT: Admin complaints and Ban Appeals already exist to facilitate these conversations :)

Secondarily: it's an admin application, which is a job/role application. You're not entitled to an explanation, we don't owe you a full breakdown of why we denied your application and what aspects of that you could work on to be a perfect candidate in the future (technically part of this is already in the pre-reqs to making an app). Sometimes some players are just not great fits for the admin team for a myriad of reasons. I'd also like you to keep in mind that we have 25 applicants this cycle, 13 of which have been veto'd and denied already. You want a chance at being a Game Admin? Don't post shit like this. All it says to be is that you completely misunderstand the primary job of admins and how the community fits into it; If you really have adminned in the past then you should know that players won't just "accept" a single DM about notes or warnings, it will still make them feel alienated ESPECIALLY IF IT IS A WATCH NOTE AND NOT A FULL WARNING.

Maybe you should take your own advice and taken this to a head of staff to have a conversation about it. Now you've made judgement of us without even starting up a conversation about potential issues. You've made several assumptions, one of which being the reasons we denied your application and second that you somehow know better than the people running an admin team who have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+ years of experience. Game Admins are unpaid volunteers, one of the assurances they get is that they don't have to continue having conversations with poor actors in the community, they remove them and move on.

[Sonador]

Okay... wow. That's a lot to unpack here. Let me see if I can do my best to not sound like an asshole, but generally this post comes off not like a rebuttal, but as if you skimmed it and missed most of my points. I'll clarify as best I can in brief.

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I think it's a bit naïve to make a very public forum post at which anyone in the community (or 3rd party visitors) can see that criticizes the server and then request that the server administration not respond to it. You've always been able to reach out to the heads of staff in DMs and make inquiries as to application rejections or get info on previous notes/warnings.

I didn't request a non-response. That was probably the number one thing I made clear in my post, and I'm a little disappointed you eschewed that and am trying to paint me as publicly excoriating you and demanding you just sit there and take it. That would have been stupid, the post was made publicly so that the exchange, if there was to be one, could be transparent and offer both the administration a chance to reply as much as other users to reply, for or against the point. I made an acknowledgement that you don't owe me anything and that you can ignore the post and go on with your life without offending me or appearing like you're just sweeping it under the rug. I know the entire team has busy lives. So do I. That's why I said you didn't owe me a reply.

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First and foremost: we don't hire administrators to be people's friends or teach them how to play the game within our community guidelines; learning our guidelines and rules is a prerequisite to playing the game and the admin team's job is to enforce them when they're broken. When staff do this It's enforcement, not a criticism of the player; Unfortunately some players take it this way, which therein lies the difficulty of being a GA. Community outreach and good relationship building is an additional expectation of being a GA but not the main one.

That's fair. But if you're declining someone's application to join the team with a reason, it's important to let them know at least clearly or critically why. More on this in your response below.

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Constructive feedback and admin-to-player conversations have a myriad of benefits, namely it helps reduce rule-breaking and tension. This is of course, at the cost of significant time and energy. Some admins note hundreds of players a month and ban about 1/5 that amount of people. There is little room in that time frame to have solid conversations with each player, not to mention that some players don't just take notes/bans sitting down and will fight back (I'm done having 1 hour conversations with players over bans). Personally, for me, I worked an 11 hour shift yesterday and got home at 2AM, and now in the few 3-4 hours I have before I go back to work today I'm taking 30 minutes to sit down and reply to you. This is a story that is similar to other GAs who also work, have families, or other commitments which made time a valuable and scarce commodity for them.

This is all very valid. I'll point out again, nobody required you to respond, now or later. But if the administrative staff are overloaded to the degree they're noting hundreds of players a month per admin, perhaps broadening the ranks further might be in order. But again, I'm going to point out that I made a specific point that I realize trying to have an intellectual debate with players in SS13 is a fool's errand, but trying to maintain that warning players they're breaking the rules is simply too much to expect of a server's administration is a non-starter. It flies in the face of how administrating a community works. If you're at the level where warning a player they're breaking the rules is too much to demand of your staff, you're either overworking your staff or your players are running rampant. Banning players outright as your sole form of enforcement isn't an approach that takes workload off of your admins, it creates more - you're now placing them in a position where they are in fact obligated to reply, or have someone else reply, often multiple times outside of the game on top of their moderation duties in game. The vast majority of your appeals are very simple "read the rules, say the phrase" bans that could have been averted with a warning.

And just a thought - just as you don't owe me a reply, you don't owe a player a conversation over a warning. You don't owe them a warning, either, but if you're taking the time to note it, a gentle nudge won't take more than a few seconds, and could potentially save you a multiple week long appeal and added workload. Again, take it or leave it, it's your server and you don't need to justify to me why you're making your choice. It's just food for thought.

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Secondarily: it's an admin application, which is a job/role application. You're not entitled to an explanation, we don't owe you a full breakdown of why we denied your application and what aspects of that you could work on to be a perfect candidate in the future. Sometimes some players are just not great fits for the admin team for a myriad of reasons. I'd also like you to keep in mind that we have 25 applicants this cycle, 13 of which have been veto'd and denied already. You want a chance at being a Game Admin? Don't post shit like this. All it says to be is that you completely misunderstand the primary job of admins and how the community fits into it; If you really have adminned in the past then you should know that players won't just "accept" a single DM about notes or warnings, it will still make them feel alienated ESPECIALLY IF IT IS A WATCH NOTE AND NOT A FULL WARNING.

You're right. I'm not. So why bother with one in the first place if you're not going to provide it? The headmin could just as easily have responded with "We've reviewed you application and at this time have decided not to move forward. You're more than welcome to reapply on the next round." Coming at me with "Don't post shit like this" most definitely not only guarantees I won't be reapplying, it paints you in an extremely negative light. I didn't say or do anything in here that invited that kind of disrespect. I'm not trying to use this to get back at you for rejecting me, only a child would post something like this and expect to have any hope of having a better chance. I didn't ask you for a complete rundown, but giving players a clue what they're doing wrong is pretty essential if you want them to be better players, let alone potentially staff to help distribute the workload in the future. If you're going to do something, do it right - either clue them in or just flatly deny the application. If you explain to them why they're being rejected and they get snitty about it, that's on them; but if you give them vague notions that they're out of line and leave them guessing, it'd make anyone feel like shit. It'd be like me making this thread and then just vaguebooking at you that I have criticisms about the process but not telling you what they are instead of just not posting or elaborating on it.

I really don't like the "posting shit like this" bit - I really don't think I deserved that, and I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt given you've had a long day and sat down to reply in a bad state of mind. That was really uncool, man, but I'm going to try to take you at face value that you mean well and move on.

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Maybe you should take your own advice and taken this to a head of staff to have a conversation about it. Now you've made judgement of us without even starting up a conversation about potential issues. You've made several assumptions, one of which being the reasons we denied your application and second that you somehow know better than the people running an admin team who have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+ years of experience. Game Admins are unpaid volunteers, one of the assurances they get is that they don't have to continue having conversations with poor actors in the community, they remove them and move on.

I'm going to level with you - I posted this here for the same reason that your unban appeals and admin complaints sections are visible to the public. I don't think you'd be criticizing them for DMing the staff to discuss it instead of posting it there. Nobody says that they have to be visible, but they are, for a reason, transparent. It removes any doubt about how your team handles objections to staff conduct or penalties applied to them and fosters a better image of your team while putting to the sword shitters that talk about admin abuse in other communities and such. I'm sorry that I made you feel like I'm passing judgement upon you, I'm not. I'm sorry I made you feel like I'm assuming I know better - I might, I might not. But again, perhaps the one thing i outlined the most in my post is "You can take my advice or leave it, it can be founded or unfounded, but you don't owe me a justification." This isn't Martin Luther nailing objections to your door, I'm just outlining the impression that I got, how it made me feel, and why I think it happened and how it could be improved in the future. You could embrace it, have your own private conversation about it, or ignore it. But I really wasn't expecting someone to come at me sideways for it.

Perhaps I am assuming why I was rejected - but then again, perhaps not. I think, if you look back on this post, you can maybe glean an idea why that may be.

And again - nobody's saying you need to have an intellectual debate, neither in applications not in warnings. They can ahelp back and scream into the void all they want, and if they're incredibly pissed about it they can come to the forums and get a flat response that they're out of line and the thread can be closed. Nobody says you have to give more time than you already are to these people beyond making them aware they're breaking the rules so that hopefully, in the future, it doesn't end up with a much more laborious appeal that has to be checked on multiple times outside of the game.

Honestly, you might be right, I'm not sure what I expected posting this, but it definitely wasn't this. I'm sorry you had a long day, and I mean it genuinely when I say I hope you feel better. I do have a profound respect for the time the team dedicates to the game. It's why I applied to help, even if you think I'm not a good fit. I work a full time job, too, some shifts 16 hours as we're short staffed. It's a lot to moderate SS13. Trust me, you might know better, but I know. This isn't passing judgement, this isn't a demand for answers, this isn't me trying to get one over on you for rejecting my application. It's a 2D spaceman game about farts, not grand subterfuge or high court and tea. But can you maybe understand that this is a, founded or unfounded, suggestion in the suggestions forum based upon my observations, perspective, training, and experience; and that I've invited you to reflect upon it and accept it, reject it, or ignore it entirely at your leisure? I could be totally off-base... but that's also something that you could look at and understand why I'm in a position to be so far off the mark. Maybe I'm an idiot for presenting it so seriously, but I'm being genuine. I'm sorry if I made you feel otherwise, but generally, that's what it is. I really, truly mean it when I say get some rest, and I hope you feel better.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Sonador

[DoctorDrugs]

So you might see this as dogpilling or whatever but Sirryan is at work during these hours while I am off work today so I'll be responding as well. I'm going to start at the very beginning with your first post and go through your comments but before that I will establish what we as headmins do for admin applications and what we can do. We take everything into account; your note/ban history even past the bare minimum amount of time of 6 months of clean history, your past behavior and current behavior on the discord, server and forums and we take into account how much the staff team talks about potential candidates. We weigh each decision we make for applications as letting in admins that bring issues or start issues with the rest of the staff team or the community makes our jobs as headmins much harder than it ever needs to be. We expect people to be able to conduct themselves with a bare minimum of respect for the players and fellow staff. Staff positions are volunteer positions, there's little to no compensation for the time, sweat and tears that goes into creating and maintaining a decent community and for that reason we hold admin applications as very important to us. We can break trust with the community far more easily than we can build it, especially in a niche gaming community that is SS13. We can deny applications on good grounds that it would be a waste of the staff's time to have to review an application if it would be out right denied.

Now onto your comments here in your first post. You made a public post on the forums for the sole reason of making it as public as possible, if you weren't trying to make it as public as possible you would've messaged myself (the one who placed the declined message on your admin application) or one of the other headadmins at the time of your denial (being Sirryan or Denthamos). All three of us can be reached at any time on discord or on the forums via DMs. You practically forced us to have to respond to you here, if we didn't we'd look like scummy assholes which we are not as again any of us can be contacted to chat in a civilized manner. 

Now we warn people who are directly breaking the rules or are toeing the line to much or too often to where we have to step in for the betterment of the community. Sometimes this means we don't address people directly on certain topics such as metagaming, multikeying or other things we suspect people of doing till we are sure they are doing those things then we bring it up to them and warn them directly for. In your case it's your conduct and attitude while it might not warrant a direct admin message regarding it every time, it is certainly not something we'd like our admins to be doing let alone a potential admin candidate. When your name pops up in from multiple staff talking about your conduct and seeing a lot of agreements from the majority of staff then I don't see the reason why I'd let my admins waste their free time reviewing an application that is certainly going to fail. Especially after you've gone and deleted every message after 2018 within the paradise discord in response to your application being denied over conduct, you claim to have experience and training regarding how to conduct yourself but your current actions prove much otherwise with how you've conducted yourself so far.

Now I will respond to your comments responding to Sirryan's post.

If you wanted a public response to be transparent then it could've and should've been handled much better than fashion, we even have a place for that within these forums under the admin complaint section as anyone can read things that are posted there. Using the suggestion section as a means to paint the process in a bad light is not how you win over the staff or even the head admins or even paint yourself in a better light. While asking a community how they feel or think is fine in some places but allowing everyone not involved to comment on something they do not have the whole picture about is how drama starts over stupid shit. You have notes regarding some behavior and there are no notes regarding other behavior because it doesn't directly break the server rules but it's again not something we want admins to be doing to other staff or even the player base.

("Hello there, thank you for you interest in join the administration team on paradise. However myself and the other two heads have some concerns about your behavior in the public discord in more than occasion as well as concerns in game with behavior. For those reasons we're going to say no to your application at this time, while this application is going to be rejected it doesn't prevent you from applying in the future when admin applications open up again. ") This is my direct quote from your denied application it clearly spells out your issues being behavioral, if you were confused exactly what I or the other heads meant a simple DM is a moment away from getting you an answer directly in terms of what we're referring to. There's never been holding us to explain in depth anything regarding notes or denial reasons on admin applications in the past, I've been making sure that denial applications have been clearly given a reason in a direction without going into detail exactly what it is. Those who care to know the exact reasons have messaged me regarding their denial be it behavioral rejections like your own or for simple note rejections and wanting to get more information regarding it or see their own notes. 

Now as to the reason our unban appeals and admin complaints are public to everyone and why doing this here is a shot at the staff directly. Our unban appeals are public for a record and accountability as well as our admin complaints as they can go hand in hand, as well as our community deserves to know that we do not let staff get away with valid admin complaints and hold staff to a minimum level of conduct and professionalism. This also means potential staff members are held to that exact standard upon review of their application. You have taken one rejection as the status quo of how things are handled in staff via assumption, all this has done in my eyes and in many of the staff's eyes has been that the head admins actions with your rejection were completely justified and reasonable. We as staff pour countless hours into moderating the community to the best that we can, this includes warning people before banning them and having the appropriate conversation. To me your responses read as you not only don't understand why we permanent ban players in the first place but also that you have little to no understanding of the commitment the staff makes to engaging with the player base in general be it in an administrative capacity or otherwise. These posts has done nothing but toss unneeded shade at the staff in general over what could've been handled in a few DMs between yourself and me or one of the other two headmins to explain and get more info. 

[Sonador]

Nevermind, the editor ate most of my post.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sonador

[Sonador]

I wish I had most of that post because it was a long and thoughtful reply, but honestly between the frustration and assumptions I just don't have the time or energy to recreate it, and just as you don't owe me anything, I don't owe you anything, either.

You're not dogpiling, and although your post still has the wrong idea, it's at least a lot less of a personal attack for making a suggestion in the correct place, so I appreciate that. Assuming bad faith is never a good tack to take, though - I didn't assume bad faith in my original suggestion, and assuming bad faith means that every suggestion is inherently asserting the server is bad or broken, every admin complaint is a personal retaliation, and every ban appeal is made over a perceived injustice.

I didn't DM a headmin because I assumed, like AffectedArc and the rules for ban appeals and admin complaints, it was at best frowned upon and at worst bannable. I was also worried that I'd be perceived as trying to sneak one over and get back at the headmins for rejecting my application in a place where nobody else could see it. I chose this place because it's public, and because it's public, I hoped you'd feel that I'd be aware of same when making the suggestion and be under an assumed good faith as a result, given if I were an asshole about it, everyone, players included, would know about it. I was wrong, I'll take that under advisement.

You've assumed as much, if not more about me than I've ostensibly assumed about you. Your second paragraph is a great example.

I deleted all of my messages in your discord, not just ones post-2018, because I don't like the kind of person I was back then. Discord doesn't have a facility for this, so the closest I get is using a service to expunge my posts entirely. If anything, I'd have preferred to keep my newer posts, not delete them. You are not the only community I've done this in, I'm not the only one that does this. I hope you can understand that.

You've put me in a corner where I have to be defensive and now we all look like we're trading blows. All I wanted was to get across was that "hey, the manner in which you replied made me feel like trash, in the future, at least tell me what in most importance I did wrong, or if you don't have the time, just flatly reject it with no allusions." All I wanted was a response to the tune of "hey, we'll take this under advisement and discuss it," or even "hey, thanks for the suggestion, but that's not quite what we want as policy." Instead, now we all look like clowns, and that's what I specifically wanted to avoid making my post worded that way. 

I hope you can see past those assumptions and just take me at face value. I don't care about being rejected. That's fine, it's your server, and like the rest of your own team I'm 32 years old and have my own life, job, and worries. I just wanted to show you that the way you rejected me, not that you rejected me, really stung, and maybe provide you with some advice on how to avoid it in the future.

Thanks.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sonador

[AffectedArc07]

Quick sidenote because I don’t want to deviate massively

2 hours ago, Sonador said:

I didn't DM a headmin because I assumed, like AffectedArc and the rules for ban appeals and admin complaints, it was at best frowned upon and at worst bannable.

The only reason I have such a problem DMing me is because on some days I would get 20+ people all with the most mundane questions like “thoughts on X?”, which could easily be conveyed over a ping. 

The heads on the other hand have said on multiple occasions that you are free to contact them over any issues you may have, and actively encourage it instead of finger pointing posts like this.

---

That said.

2 hours ago, Sonador said:

I didn't assume bad faith in my original suggestion

You absolutely did, you did it in the first sentence.

13 hours ago, Sonador said:

 

I know a bunch of the staff are going to come in here thinking I'm here to bitch about being rejected.

 

 

[Sonador]

I'm done. I give up. The entire point with the way I wrote my post was trying to avoid that, and you're still maintaining, three posts later, that I'm finger pointing.

I'm going to take a long break, and when I come back, if I come back, I'm not going to participate in the forums or on the Discord.

You've successfully ignored the entire point of the thread. You win. Bye.

[MattTheFicus]

It turns out locking does not stop the spam-hide/unhiding of posts.

If youre going to call people out for what you suppose is non-transparency and issues, please kindly dont hide the post yourself afterwards and make it look like we could have possibly hid it. It doesnt look good on us and it DEFINITELY doesnt look good on you.

If you want us to be more transparent for issues, lets not hide the replies okay?