Am I wrong to want to keep people who don't work in the same department as me out of my workplace?

[TerishaSenpai]

This bugs me, especially with occupations where your only job is to make things.  If I'm working as a chemist and a botanist, people should be ASKING me for stuff, not breaking it to make it themselves.  Seriously, if people are just going to make things themselves, what the hell am I even there for?  This is especially frustrating to me as a Chemist, as it's basically a Traitor's wet dream and I don't do antags.

Related note, are there any jobs that don't involve making things or involves something only one player can do?  Only things I can really think of are Security or heads of staff, and I don't know if I'm ready for any of that.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TerishaSenpai

[ID404NotFound]

This game is supposed to be a co-operative type of experience, so it's intended that there isn't much "soloing" possible. It is why you cannot perform surgery on yourself, even attaching your severed hand (even as an IPC). So no, you are not wrong to want people to not break into your department to "do it themselves". We are supposed to be able to co-operative and rely on others in this game to each play their respective role, but there are individuals who are incapable of that, or bitch and complain about the playstyle or experience of others.

 Security and Heads of Staff aren't even good examples of loner jobs, as you need to be able to co-ordinate with other officers, or as a head, be able to manage your department. Closer jobs are Explorer (piss off into space) Miners (they could die on lavaland and be unnoticed) or a job like the Librarian/Journalist (the job is what you make of it) Close seconds are Virologist (making virus, yes, but mostly you are alone), Xenobio (yes they want yellow cores etc, but again often alone, or one other with you)

 Ultimately, it is better to learn how to live in a co-operative environment, and how to deal with those who are overbearing, and try to one-crew everything.

[TheBadPerson]

Evicting tiders is a crucial in game skill. It’s also why you should close doors behind you . If they are being truly disruptive you can always call security, assuming they aren’t in the process of being hunted down by antags. Also keep in mind, if someone who is clearly an antag breaks in and you mess with them, be fully prepared for the consequences. 
 

People get impatient because it is all too common for departments to completely shirk their jobs and screw over other crew members. This makes people assume you’ll ignore them so they start breaking in. You can avoid this by defying their expectations and being alert to people at the window. I do this by pointing at people who come up as soon as I can to alert them that I know they’re there, and then asking them what they need. If they know you’re not ignoring them, they are WAY less likely to be obnoxious. 
 

Most jobs rely on others in some way or another, but some are more insular than others. Chemistry, Botany, Xenobiology, Mining, and robotics are very solitary roles if you are interested. 

Lastly, some tips to scream over comms to get secs attention if tiders are being annoying and won’t leave: in chemistry, scream over comms “SEC TO CHEM, THEY ARE MAKING ANTISTUNS!!!l” say this even if it isn’t true and sec WILL come. For botany scream “SEC TO BOTANY THEY BROKE IN AND ARE MAKING DEATH PLANTS!!!”

[TerishaSenpai]

1 hour ago, TheBadPerson said:

Evicting tiders is a crucial in game skill. It’s also why you should close doors behind you . If they are being truly disruptive you can always call security, assuming they aren’t in the process of being hunted down by antags. Also keep in mind, if someone who is clearly an antag breaks in and you mess with them, be fully prepared for the consequences. 
 

People get impatient because it is all too common for departments to completely shirk their jobs and screw over other crew members. This makes people assume you’ll ignore them so they start breaking in. You can avoid this by defying their expectations and being alert to people at the window. I do this by pointing at people who come up as soon as I can to alert them that I know they’re there, and then asking them what they need. If they know you’re not ignoring them, they are WAY less likely to be obnoxious. 
 

Most jobs rely on others in some way or another, but some are more insular than others. Chemistry, Botany, Xenobiology, Mining, and robotics are very solitary roles if you are interested. 

Lastly, some tips to scream over comms to get secs attention if tiders are being annoying and won’t leave: in chemistry, scream over comms “SEC TO CHEM, THEY ARE MAKING ANTISTUNS!!!l” say this even if it isn’t true and sec WILL come. For botany scream “SEC TO BOTANY THEY BROKE IN AND ARE MAKING DEATH PLANTS!!!”

I feel like that's eventually going to wind up becoming a 'boy who cried wolf' situation, but I'll definitely give it a shot.  Also, closing doors doesn't do much good against people who have access (like doctors in chem's case).

Edited July 25, 2023 by TerishaSenpai

[TheBadPerson]

8 minutes ago, TerishaSenpai said:

I feel like that's eventually going to wind up becoming a 'boy who cried wolf' situation, but I'll definitely give it a shot.  Also, closing doors doesn't do much good against people who have access (like doctors in chem's case).

Obviously don’t spam that trick, but I guarantee it will get security’s attention better than just saying “so and so is trespassing!” Only do that if someone is blatantly shitting up your workspace for no reason, and you seriously need them out. 
 

Doctors do not have chem access on roundstart unless they get it from the HOP. CMO always has chem access. That said, docs should not be taking over chemistry unless chem is understaffed, or the chemists don’t know how to make a needed chem. 

[Aligote]

I think there are multiple sentiments that must be addressed in this thread. 

First, obviously, people ignoring and doing your job for you should be looked down upon. However, this heavily depends on HOW you interact with them. If your first reaction to someone stepping into your "workplace" is to robotically shove them outside as their text bubble is loading. There may be a reason you're getting burned out. A person approaching you could potentially be one of the most fruitful RP opportunities you could get, you can discuss what they need and how they could produce it. That's why this "close doors on those tiders lmao" sentiment put me off, assistants are ASSISTANTS. Most departments have GUEST PASS MACHINES. Ya know, this visible burnout from "production" roles may be because you're not interacting and roleplaying, a major part of this game.

Second, people mindlessly taking over your job is a stain on the other player's behavior, not a justification to try and wall yourself in. Again, that's how you burn yourself out, doing the same thing over and over again.

Third, don't interact with security by crying wolf. They don't have a sense of humor.

Fourth, you can do anything as an assistant. You can play at the arcade by yourself and choose who you talk to. It's a great role to familiarize yourself with other jobs that could fit you as well, such as librarian or whatnot. I mean, what's the point and end goal of SS13 jobs? It's to cooperate with one another and try to build something in the face of adversity. Or, in other words, to make a good story and simulation. Why not just "work" as an assistant?

Edited August 1, 2023 by Aligote

[Warriorstar]

On 7/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, TerishaSenpai said:

This bugs me, especially with occupations where your only job is to make things.  If I'm working as a chemist and a botanist, people should be ASKING me for stuff, not breaking it to make it themselves.  Seriously, if people are just going to make things themselves, what the hell am I even there for?  This is especially frustrating to me as a Chemist, as it's basically a Traitor's wet dream and I don't do antags.

Related note, are there any jobs that don't involve making things or involves something only one player can do?  Only things I can really think of are Security or heads of staff, and I don't know if I'm ready for any of that.

Chef is probably the best singleplayer role on station. Not only do you have the kitchen to yourself, but the game mechanically reinforces your autonomy by giving you CQC to give the beatdown to assholes who break in.

As much as I appreciate the sentiment that SS13 is a cooperative roleplaying game, that only works if the other crew aren't the most obnoxious brats ever to grace the sector. No amount of roleplaying potential can fix a situation like:

Assistant: *walks up to kitchen door with a locker slamming the airlock*

Chef: What do you want?

Assistant: Let me in.

Chef: Why?

Assistant: *starts hacking door*

Chef: Stop it, I'm warning you.

Assistant: *breaks in*

Chef: *knocks their block off*

Assistant: I BROUGHT YOU MEAT, I'M TRYING TO HELP

Chef: I DON'T WANT YOUR HELP AND I DIDN'T ASK FOR A BUNCH OF ANIMAL CARCASSES AND WHY DIDN'T YOU START BY SAYING THAT INSTEAD OF WORDLESSLY BREAKING INTO MY DEPARTMENT

(repeat every shift)

[Abydos]

The thing I often dislike whenever you are in any department or job, is assistants just walking in, thinking they own the place and can do as they please. And if you so much as tell them to leave, throw them out, report them or anything for the sorts.. they start taking that as an "attack" and believe it justifies them in messing with your round / department the whole shift. People don't play assistant to help others, learn a job or be helpful in any degree.. people play assistant purely because they don't want to do any work / job, but still believe it justifies them to just cause trouble purely because they can. Often with some silly gimmick like "I'm gonna steal everyones shoes" or "I'm gonna see how many times I can break into a department without getting arrested." or "I'm going to act like I'm <x job> when I'm not. I'm gonna make my own science / medbay / cargo." 

Even when people say this is a cooperative game, assistants often are not cooperative at all. They just do whatever they want and believe they can get away with it, because they should / can. Not communicating, standing at doors purposely so when someone walks in, they follow in. And if anyone interfers, it's free game to fuck with them the whole shift. Yes, it is a cooperative game.. but I cannot be cooperative with the assistant who keeps breaking into cargo / science / medical / engineering / kitchen, ect, stealing shit for themselves (Thus, taking stuff away from people who actually need / use it), hoard stuff, refuse to talk / communicate in any fashion, whine that you're the one ruining their game and then spend the whole round to attack / fuck with you. It's a self-entitled mentality of "I need this stuff, but I refuse to ask for it, I will get it myself. Why are you disarming me? That lets me kill you now." or "What do you mean I can't have a stunbaton / hoard all the kitchen food for myself? You're selfantagging me! I'm gonna selfantag you now!" As if them being an assistant = them being the main character.

I see no issue with throwing people out of your department (Unless they were invited in. But that's another pet annoyance of mine when greydy mctideface is allowed in, because their metafriend is working there and they just lay around, then get in the way of everyone else who isn't their friend) who are causing problems. If they continue, yes, security can be told. If they really continue to fuck with you / your department.. that's entering simply being a dick, for the sake of being a dick. If they wanted to do a job, they should of signed up for that job / asked the HoP if they can be hired into it.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Abydos

[Spacemanspark]

Return to limited assistant job slots (scaling based off of active security members) when

:^) 

[Aligote]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:13 PM, Warriorstar said:

No amount of roleplaying potential can fix a situation like:

Assistant: *walks up to kitchen door with a locker slamming the airlock*

Chef: What do you want?

Assistant: Let me in.

Chef: Why?

Assistant: *starts hacking door*

Chef: Stop it, I'm warning you.

Assistant: *breaks in*

Chef: *knocks their block off*

Assistant: I BROUGHT YOU MEAT, I'M TRYING TO HELP

Chef: I DON'T WANT YOUR HELP AND I DIDN'T ASK FOR A BUNCH OF ANIMAL CARCASSES AND WHY DIDN'T YOU START BY SAYING THAT INSTEAD OF WORDLESSLY BREAKING INTO MY DEPARTMENT

This is a legit perspective, however, there are also situations like this:

Assistant: *Waves at the chef and points to locker with meat.

Chef: *Opens the door and takes the locker away. Assistant accompanies the locker.

Assistant: Hey so uh, I was this thinking. Maybe I could get us some cleavers and start a bistro tog-

Chef: *Neck chops assistant and kicks him out before his text bubble appears.

*repeat behavior every shift

Just to say, perhaps reconsider the situation, and if you really just wanna play by yourself like that.

Like seriously, when the chef is absent, the kitchen being turned into a soup kitchen is an experience in itself. The crew has to work together to make what they can and usually, it's an assistant who has to commit and carry that situation.

Just to say-

On 8/2/2023 at 12:18 AM, Abydos said:

The thing I often dislike whenever you are in any department or job, is assistants just walking in, thinking they own the place and can do as they please. And if you so much as tell them to leave, throw them out, report them or anything for the sorts.. they start taking that as an "attack" and believe it justifies them in messing with your round / department the whole shift. People don't play assistant to help others, learn a job or be helpful in any degree.. people play assistant purely because they don't want to do any work / job, but still believe it justifies them to just cause trouble purely because they can. Often with some silly gimmick like "I'm gonna steal everyones shoes" or "I'm gonna see how many times I can break into a department without getting arrested." or "I'm going to act like I'm <x job> when I'm not. I'm gonna make my own science / medbay / cargo." 

Even when people say this is a cooperative game, assistants often are not cooperative at all. They just do whatever they want and believe they can get away with it, because they should / can. Not communicating, standing at doors purposely so when someone walks in, they follow in. And if anyone interfers, it's free game to fuck with them the whole shift. Yes, it is a cooperative game.. but I cannot be cooperative with the assistant who keeps breaking into cargo / science / medical / engineering / kitchen, ect, stealing shit for themselves (Thus, taking stuff away from people who actually need / use it), hoard stuff, refuse to talk / communicate in any fashion, whine that you're the one ruining their game and then spend the whole round to attack / fuck with you. It's a self-entitled mentality of "I need this stuff, but I refuse to ask for it, I will get it myself. Why are you disarming me? That lets me kill you now." or "What do you mean I can't have a stunbaton / hoard all the kitchen food for myself? You're selfantagging me! I'm gonna selfantag you now!" As if them being an assistant = them being the main character.

If they continue, yes, security can be told. If they really continue to fuck with you / your department.. that's entering simply being a dick, for the sake of being a dick. If they wanted to do a job, they should of signed up for that job / asked the HoP if they can be hired into it.

I don't think this is a healthy perspective. Seriously, conflating assistants with shitty behavior overall and using that to justify shitty behavior back is such a flawed mindset. How can you conflate every flaw assistants may commit as justification to treat them like dogs that need to be "kept out"? I know people may be weathered by shitters but does this make such animosity justified? I don't think it is.

On 8/2/2023 at 12:18 AM, Abydos said:

I see no issue with throwing people out of your department (Unless they were invited in. But that's another pet annoyance of mine when greydy mctideface is allowed in, because their metafriend is working there and they just lay around, then get in the way of everyone else who isn't their friend) who are causing problems.

...

If they continue, yes, security can be told. If they really continue to fuck with you / your department.. that's entering simply being a dick, for the sake of being a dick. If they wanted to do a job, they should of signed up for that job / asked the HoP if they can be hired into it.

So even if an assistant is invited in because someone understands they could be trusted, there is an issue of metagaming and "getting in the way"? People can form professional relationships without it negatively impacting anything. An assistant can be helpful as their name suggests, and they shouldn't be obligated to "ask for a job" to have the autonomy to do their original job. 

I'll be frank, I understand assistant shitting is an issue. However, the number of incidents of security officers finding any reason to arrest someone or the unjustified animosity of some players for their workspace is a prevalent issue that should also be addressed.

Ultimately, I think this behavior of "protecting your workspace" is understandable but flawed. This isn't just about assistants, this issue applies to all of the crew who can walk. I think the best thing is to just understand that this is a cooperative game and although walling yourself in may be understandable, it's not something I really condone. Also, respect assistants, I hope this entire thread wasn't just about assistants.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Aligote

[Spacemanspark]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

Assistant: *Waves at the chef and points to locker with meat.

Chef: *Opens the door and takes the locker away. Assistant accompanies the locker.

Assistant: Hey so uh, I was this thinking. Maybe I could get us some cleavers and start a bistro tog-

Chef: *Neck chops assistant and kicks him out before his text bubble appears.

*repeat behavior every shift

Given that I've dealt with this sort of thing across multiple servers beyond just Paradise, I'll give a proper response to this as opposed to a mere half joke like my previous post in this thread. 

You don't need to enter the kitchen to suggest an idea to the chef. Do it from just outside or via PDA if you really want to do that. When people barge in to do something, it immediately sets a bad taste in most veteran player's mouths; this applies to damn near every job, in fact. For good reason, too--99% of the time someone struts in, it's to do your job/ some element of your job, steal things, or otherwise mess about with you. When this happens for the umpteenth time across many, many rounds, it begins to get tiresome and players lose patience.

Sometimes players have their own ideas set in stone, and want to carry them out without interference--people pick these roles and not assistant primarily because of that. Occasionally, yes, someone might come up with something interesting to try out, and an ideal time/ place/ circumstance to try it with others (and to this, I wholeheartedly give my thumbs up; creativity is what makes this game fun to experience overall, and I would much rather see that from assistant players rather than greytiding or bridge hobo-ing). But expecting everyone to immediately want to drop what they're doing to play along... ehhhhhhh, no.

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

Like seriously, when the chef is absent, the kitchen being turned into a soup kitchen is an experience in itself. The crew has to work together to make what they can and usually, it's an assistant who has to commit and carry that situation.

The key phrase here being when the chef is absent. I doubt many here would particularly be bothered with the crew stepping in to account for an unfilled/ entirely neglected position. That's considerably different and far more reasonable as opposed to barging in when someone is already manning the role they chose. 

 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

I don't think this is a healthy perspective. Seriously, conflating assistants with shitty behavior overall and using that to justify shitty behavior back is such a flawed mindset. How can you conflate every flaw assistants may commit as justification to treat them like dogs that need to be "kept out"? I know people may be weathered by shitters but does this make such animosity justified? I don't think it is.

There's some vague merit to this. Putting a negative label on everyone with the assistant title is indeed not the best take--but also consider that across the wider ss13 community, "Greytide worldwide" is quite a popular meme. It has been for well more than a decade, and behind the meme there's quite a bit of truth in the stereotypes regarding assistants. I cannot blame anyone for being a little reserved when coming across assistant players (especially after months of potentially dealing with people being little shits towards you in whatever role you play). 

 

I play robotics. Not to overly toot my horn, but it's the role I feel quite good at and known for wherever I go--and yes, if someone unwanted walks into my lab without a damned good reason prior, they're going right back outside again. I've had people steal things, break things, waste materials by printing random shit (exosuits and implants usually. On servers with ore silos this can be quite bad if mining hasn't been the most active, since robotics exofabs devour mats if used frivolously), do parts of my job for me because fuck me I guess, or otherwise waste my time and cause chaos because it amuses them to do so. These things happen CONSTANTLY, and naturally I've become quite reserved about random players (regardless of role) strutting into robotics regardless of reason. 

That said, if someone wants to try something genuinely interesting and fun (lord knows robotics needs more content on just about every damned server) I'm much more willing to indulge them when they don't bust into robotics. Many players operate on similar standards throughout many roles if they don't already have some form of project they're invested in. 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

So even if an assistant is invited in because someone understands they could be trusted, there is an issue of metagaming and "getting in the way"? People can form professional relationships without it negatively impacting anything. An assistant can be helpful as their name suggests, and they shouldn't be obligated to "ask for a job" to have the autonomy to do their original job. 

This is an entirely separate can of worms. If we're going for the realism argument here (which I wouldn't recommend, but hey) consider that having someone not manning a specific position lounge around a work area can have considerable negative impact--ranging from as small as being an obnoxious distraction all the way to a dangerous obstacle, depending on the job. Assistants can indeed be helpful, but their help would theoretically be coordinated as needed, and not merely allowed into restricted station areas to lounge about. 

That said, I'm not a fan of realism arguments. It makes for poor gameplay in most cases... and this is a dumb goofy game set in a shitty hell hole of a space station. So, looking past that, from a gameplay and/ or roleplay sense--once again, there's a time and place. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department (DEPENDING ON DEPARTMENT [the brig isn't a hangout zone, for example]) to chill when things are calm is fine, provided the others in your department don't have any oppositions. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department if you're overworked and need some help is also fine in some circumstances (if I'm running around trying to repair 20 IPCs and another robotics capable player currently as assistant comes along and offers a bit of help, I sometimes say yes, for example). Teaching a friend or an otherwise new random player your job is also fine sometimes, provided tact is used. 

 

However, constantly allowing your friends inside your department is indeed problematic. It disrupts gameplay flow (hanging around in big groups makes it hard for many antags to do their thing... or far easier in some cases [conversion antags]), it attracts negative attention from griefers, it instills toxic mindsets and clique behavior which plagues most ss13 servers. 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

However, the number of incidents of security officers finding any reason to arrest someone

That is indeed an issue (one which has also existed for years and has its own memes and stereotypes), but not what this thread pertains towards. Mentioning this doesn't offer much of value to this discussion. 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

unjustified animosity of some players for their workspace is a prevalent issue that should also be addressed.

I'd hope my text wall here helps you to understand that it isn't quite unjustified. 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

I think the best thing is to just understand that this is a cooperative game

Yes... and no. A cooperative game would imply that everyone is largely on the same side. Halo has a split screen cooperative mode, with both players housing the same goals (eradicating those damned covenant alien bastards) and using the same mechanics and character (more or less) to achieve that end (Arbiter is still based tho) 

Space station 13 is a multiplayer game with some cooperative elements sprinkled in. You have many players in the same server, but they all have different characters. Different jobs, different mechanics, different motivations. Yes, players should ideally work towards making an interesting experience for those around them--but not at the explicit expense of their own fun. There are limits to what's reasonable to expect and reasonable ways to go about trying unique ideas. Many of the game's elements and surrounding atmosphere also cause paranoia and distrust of other characters by design. 

On 8/19/2023 at 5:50 PM, Aligote said:

Also, respect assistants, I hope this entire thread wasn't just about assistants.

This I will somewhat agree with, in closing. Again with robotics, I've dealt with obnoxious assistants, clowns, engis, cargo, security, other scientists, other goddamn roboticists, medical, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. 

Some players have good ideas and want to genuinely do fun things. These players shouldn't be overlooked... but at the same time, there's often an avalanche of others who have less than fun intentions when interacting with any given department. To address the title of this topic more directly; randomly entering a department without permission is indeed poor form from nearly every angle, and continuing onward to do things within that department when others are playing said department as is... well, it's certainly not unreasonable to react to such by tossing them out, and when it happens over and over again it's also not unreasonable to grow tired of it and react quickly to stop it. 

[Aligote]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:40 PM, Spacemanspark said:

Given that I've dealt with this sort of thing across multiple servers beyond just Paradise, I'll give a proper response to this as opposed to a mere half joke like my previous post in this thread. 

You don't need to enter the kitchen to suggest an idea to the chef. Do it from just outside or via PDA if you really want to do that. When people barge in to do something, it immediately sets a bad taste in most veteran player's mouths; this applies to damn near every job, in fact. For good reason, too--99% of the time someone struts in, it's to do your job/ some element of your job, steal things, or otherwise mess about with you. When this happens for the umpteenth time across many, many rounds, it begins to get tiresome and players lose patience.

Sometimes players have their own ideas set in stone, and want to carry them out without interference--people pick these roles and not assistant primarily because of that. Occasionally, yes, someone might come up with something interesting to try out, and an ideal time/ place/ circumstance to try it with others (and to this, I wholeheartedly give my thumbs up; creativity is what makes this game fun to experience overall, and I would much rather see that from assistant players rather than greytiding or bridge hobo-ing). But expecting everyone to immediately want to drop what they're doing to play along... ehhhhhhh, no.

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

Like seriously, when the chef is absent, the kitchen being turned into a soup kitchen is an experience in itself. The crew has to work together to make what they can and usually, it's an assistant who has to commit and carry that situation.

The key phrase here being when the chef is absent. I doubt many here would particularly be bothered with the crew stepping in to account for an unfilled/ entirely neglected position. That's considerably different and far more reasonable as opposed to barging in when someone is already manning the role they chose. 

 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

I don't think this is a healthy perspective. Seriously, conflating assistants with shitty behavior overall and using that to justify shitty behavior back is such a flawed mindset. How can you conflate every flaw assistants may commit as justification to treat them like dogs that need to be "kept out"? I know people may be weathered by shitters but does this make such animosity justified? I don't think it is.

There's some vague merit to this. Putting a negative label on everyone with the assistant title is indeed not the best take--but also consider that across the wider ss13 community, "Greytide worldwide" is quite a popular meme. It has been for well more than a decade, and behind the meme there's quite a bit of truth in the stereotypes regarding assistants. I cannot blame anyone for being a little reserved when coming across assistant players (especially after months of potentially dealing with people being little shits towards you in whatever role you play). 

 

I play robotics. Not to overly toot my horn, but it's the role I feel quite good at and known for wherever I go--and yes, if someone unwanted walks into my lab without a damned good reason prior, they're going right back outside again. I've had people steal things, break things, waste materials by printing random shit (exosuits and implants usually. On servers with ore silos this can be quite bad if mining hasn't been the most active, since robotics exofabs devour mats if used frivolously), do parts of my job for me because fuck me I guess, or otherwise waste my time and cause chaos because it amuses them to do so. These things happen CONSTANTLY, and naturally I've become quite reserved about random players (regardless of role) strutting into robotics regardless of reason. 

That said, if someone wants to try something genuinely interesting and fun (lord knows robotics needs more content on just about every damned server) I'm much more willing to indulge them when they don't bust into robotics. Many players operate on similar standards throughout many roles if they don't already have some form of project they're invested in. 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

So even if an assistant is invited in because someone understands they could be trusted, there is an issue of metagaming and "getting in the way"? People can form professional relationships without it negatively impacting anything. An assistant can be helpful as their name suggests, and they shouldn't be obligated to "ask for a job" to have the autonomy to do their original job. 

This is an entirely separate can of worms. If we're going for the realism argument here (which I wouldn't recommend, but hey) consider that having someone not manning a specific position lounge around a work area can have considerable negative impact--ranging from as small as being an obnoxious distraction all the way to a dangerous obstacle, depending on the job. Assistants can indeed be helpful, but their help would theoretically be coordinated as needed, and not merely allowed into restricted station areas to lounge about. 

That said, I'm not a fan of realism arguments. It makes for poor gameplay in most cases... and this is a dumb goofy game set in a shitty hell hole of a space station. So, looking past that, from a gameplay and/ or roleplay sense--once again, there's a time and place. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department (DEPENDING ON DEPARTMENT [the brig isn't a hangout zone, for example]) to chill when things are calm is fine, provided the others in your department don't have any oppositions. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department if you're overworked and need some help is also fine in some circumstances (if I'm running around trying to repair 20 IPCs and another robotics capable player currently as assistant comes along and offers a bit of help, I sometimes say yes, for example). Teaching a friend or an otherwise new random player your job is also fine sometimes, provided tact is used. 

 

However, constantly allowing your friends inside your department is indeed problematic. It disrupts gameplay flow (hanging around in big groups makes it hard for many antags to do their thing... or far easier in some cases [conversion antags]), it attracts negative attention from griefers, it instills toxic mindsets and clique behavior which plagues most ss13 servers. 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

However, the number of incidents of security officers finding any reason to arrest someone

That is indeed an issue (one which has also existed for years and has its own memes and stereotypes), but not what this thread pertains towards. Mentioning this doesn't offer much of value to this discussion. 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

unjustified animosity of some players for their workspace is a prevalent issue that should also be addressed.

I'd hope my text wall here helps you to understand that it isn't quite unjustified. 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

I think the best thing is to just understand that this is a cooperative game

Yes... and no. A cooperative game would imply that everyone is largely on the same side. Halo has a split screen cooperative mode, with both players housing the same goals (eradicating those damned covenant alien bastards) and using the same mechanics and character (more or less) to achieve that end (Arbiter is still based tho) 

Space station 13 is a multiplayer game with some cooperative elements sprinkled in. You have many players in the same server, but they all have different characters. Different jobs, different mechanics, different motivations. Yes, players should ideally work towards making an interesting experience for those around them--but not at the explicit expense of their own fun. There are limits to what's reasonable to expect and reasonable ways to go about trying unique ideas. Many of the game's elements and surrounding atmosphere also cause paranoia and distrust of other characters by design. 

  On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

Also, respect assistants, I hope this entire thread wasn't just about assistants.

This I will somewhat agree with, in closing. Again with robotics, I've dealt with obnoxious assistants, clowns, engis, cargo, security, other scientists, other goddamn roboticists, medical, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. 

Some players have good ideas and want to genuinely do fun things. These players shouldn't be overlooked... but at the same time, there's often an avalanche of others who have less than fun intentions when interacting with any given department. To address the title of this topic more directly; randomly entering a department without permission is indeed poor form from nearly every angle, and continuing onward to do things within that department when others are playing said department as is... well, it's certainly not unreasonable to react to such by tossing them out, and when it happens over and over again it's also not unreasonable to grow tired of it and react quickly to stop it. 

I do appreciate the thorough rebuttal to my post.

All I can say is that, conversely, like how tiding is a meme that describes a real tendency, immediate workplace aversion to "outsiders" is also a tendency that I've seen memes about as well. And even though I can understand a tendency, like a Tider tiding because they're ignored or insulted (or they're just a jerk), it doesn't mean there isn't an understandable/justified perspective from the other side. I can understand but not support what may seem like reserved behavior against a potential threat by one player, but what seems like direct violence for the other. A chef throat-chopping an assistant may seem like Tuesday to them, but to the assistant, it's a direct sign of disrespect and malice.

I suppose this goes the same for walking into people's workplaces. While one might see another player disrespecting their boundaries, the other might be trying to close the distance in the most literal way possible. Roleplay-wise, people would try connecting to others by walking up to them, even in their workplace. The fact that the setting makes distrust so prevalent could only make that attempt more interesting. So I don't know, is the disconnected way players react to outsiders conducive to that?

On 9/13/2023 at 9:40 PM, Spacemanspark said:

On 8/19/2023 at 6:50 PM, Aligote said:

So even if an assistant is invited in because someone understands they could be trusted, there is an issue of metagaming and "getting in the way"? People can form professional relationships without it negatively impacting anything. An assistant can be helpful as their name suggests, and they shouldn't be obligated to "ask for a job" to have the autonomy to do their original job. 

This is an entirely separate can of worms. If we're going for the realism argument here (which I wouldn't recommend, but hey) consider that having someone not manning a specific position lounge around a work area can have considerable negative impact--ranging from as small as being an obnoxious distraction all the way to a dangerous obstacle, depending on the job. Assistants can indeed be helpful, but their help would theoretically be coordinated as needed, and not merely allowed into restricted station areas to lounge about. 

That said, I'm not a fan of realism arguments. It makes for poor gameplay in most cases... and this is a dumb goofy game set in a shitty hell hole of a space station. So, looking past that, from a gameplay and/ or roleplay sense--once again, there's a time and place. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department (DEPENDING ON DEPARTMENT [the brig isn't a hangout zone, for example]) to chill when things are calm is fine, provided the others in your department don't have any oppositions. Occasionally allowing a friend inside your department if you're overworked and need some help is also fine in some circumstances (if I'm running around trying to repair 20 IPCs and another robotics capable player currently as assistant comes along and offers a bit of help, I sometimes say yes, for example). Teaching a friend or an otherwise new random player your job is also fine sometimes, provided tact is used. 

 

However, constantly allowing your friends inside your department is indeed problematic. It disrupts gameplay flow (hanging around in big groups makes it hard for many antags to do their thing... or far easier in some cases [conversion antags]), it attracts negative attention from griefers, it instills toxic mindsets and clique behavior which plagues most ss13 servers. 

I believed the issue of metagaming was just a way to demean assistants from assisting in departments as a whole. That getting a "real job" was the only way to positively contribute to the round.

On 8/2/2023 at 12:18 AM, Abydos said:

I see no issue with throwing people out of your department (Unless they were invited in. But that's another pet annoyance of mine when greydy mctideface is allowed in, because their metafriend is working there and they just lay around, then get in the way of everyone else who isn't their friend) who are causing problems...If they wanted to do a job, they should of signed up for that job / asked the HoP if they can be hired into it.

I agree that metagaming in that manner would be an obstacle, and I agree from a gameplay and roleplay(realism) sense, that there's a time and place. I believe there are many encounters like the one you described which is what I support.

You're also right about the nature of the game. It isn't a coop, it's a multiplayer game with different roles that offer different ways of having fun. So instead, I guess I just think the roleplay aspect with others has a lot of potential.

Ultimately, I agree that walking into another player's workplace and intruding on their work is bad form like before. I can understand where these players are coming from about others walking in at all, especially seasoned veterans who had to deal with such things far longer than I have. But I can also understand my own experiences. So to circle back to the original question, I still believe it's best for players to try and tame their tendencies to kick their fellow crewmember out with hands instead of words, and to be open to interaction as such. Of course, if you're not interested, you're not obligated to engage, although throwing hands may not be required either.

Also

On 7/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, TerishaSenpai said:

elated note, are there any jobs that don't involve making things or involves something only one player can do?  Only things I can really think of are Security or heads of staff, and I don't know if I'm ready for any of that.

If the original recommendation was for jobs that DON'T involve only one person, like working as a group in security or leading crew like a head of staff, I'd still suggest trying assistant for interactions....or engineering with their demented coworker-bonding power projects IDK.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Aligote

[AidanFair]

Maybe I'm wrong. But when people aren't doing their job. And are just ignoring you when you need something. I feel like it's justified to break in and get what you need. Or break in and tell someone to do their job. The number of times I've seen multiple scientists in a row ignore the line at R and D. Walk in, print grenades, beakers, tools for themselves and leave. Ignore the radio. Just "I want to do my thing, so the rest of you can get fucked". This includes the RD. Ignoring the line and R and D (or not even knowing how to do it because they spent all their hours at sci making grenades). I feel like a department head should know the basics of their department. But that's another story. If I get ignored by multiple scientists and the RD when I need stock parts. I'm breaking in and disassembling their shit to get the parts I need. Because it's funny.

Even as an antag I make sure to service the line if I'm there. I'm not the only player. Others want to do their thing too. And they need stuff to do whatever thing they're planning. I get it. You want to test out that grenade mix. But taking a few minutes to work the desk isn't going to stop you doing that. Shutting the shutters will sometimes make me go away. Other times it will make me deconstruct your walls and shut off your sci chem APC. "Oh so now you want me to fix your APC? Can I get those upgraded tools first please? Thanks."

If robotics takes all the materials from the first orm delivery(including diamond and bluespace which they aren't even going to use at this stage). I'm going to ask for those mats. If I'm ignored. I'm going to break in and take ALL of their materials. They have access to sci. They can get what they need after we do R and D and upgrades. Or wait for the next load from mining. You realize we can upgrade your machines robotics. We can upgrade the whole station. But we can't do it unless we have the materials and levels to do so. Every department is worse off now.

As for assistants, sometimes we are very busy and have assisting to do. We don't have time to ask for things. We need those insuls for reasons. We have VERY important things to do. That workplace hazard isn't going to build itself! But in all seriousness, if I do break in somewhere as an assistant, feel free to robust me. I won't fight back. I know I'm in the wrong and deserve what's coming. I don't want to ruin your game. Tabling, grabbing and dumping a screaming assistant in the disposals may even make your round more fun.

As a side note, check what alert the station is on. If it's red, sec probably don't want to be dealing with your shenanigans. If it's green/blue, sec still probably don't want to be dealing with your shenanigans, but at least they have time to do so. And don't be a dick to them. They're most likely dealing with you because you pulled some dumb shit.

[Aligote]

1 hour ago, Aligote said:

And even though I can understand a tendency, like a Tider tiding because they're ignored or insulted (or they're just a jerk)

 

19 minutes ago, AidanFair said:

I feel like it's justified to break in and get what you need. Or break in and tell someone to do their job. The number of times I've seen multiple scientists in a row ignore the line at R and D. Walk in, print grenades, beakers, tools for themselves and leave. Ignore the radio. Just "I want to do my thing, so the rest of you can get fucked". This includes the RD. Ignoring the line and R and D (or not even knowing how to do it because they spent all their hours at sci making grenades). I feel like a department head should know the basics of their department. But that's another story. If I get ignored by multiple scientists and the RD when I need stock parts. I'm breaking in and disassembling their shit to get the parts I need. Because it's funny.

Yeah, that fits ¯\_(:/)_/¯

[BottomQuark]

4 hours ago, AidanFair said:

Maybe I'm wrong. But when people aren't doing their job. And are just ignoring you when you need something. I feel like it's justified to break in and get what you need. Or break in and tell someone to do their job. The number of times I've seen multiple scientists in a row ignore the line at R and D. Walk in, print grenades, beakers, tools for themselves and leave. Ignore the radio. Just "I want to do my thing, so the rest of you can get fucked". This includes the RD. Ignoring the line and R and D (or not even knowing how to do it because they spent all their hours at sci making grenades). I feel like a department head should know the basics of their department. But that's another story. If I get ignored by multiple scientists and the RD when I need stock parts. I'm breaking in and disassembling their shit to get the parts I need. Because it's funny.

Well that's straight up griefing at this point. You can't just break into somewhere and grief other player's workplace, doesn't matter if they annoy you or not.
If sciencists are not doing their job then you should contact RD to either get them to work or fire them.
If RD is not working contact Captain, NT Rep or IAA to get them to work.

imagine you're a roboticist, other roboticist is completely new and incompetent and you go out of your workplace to fix some shit, or to eat and get some mats from cargo
You come back and you see some asshat broke in and is doing your job as librarian bcs their IPC friend is dead.
I would be mad and I imagine you would be too if you came into hacked open doors to your workplace.

 

4 hours ago, AidanFair said:

Shutting the shutters will sometimes make me go away. Other times it will make me deconstruct your walls and shut off your sci chem APC. "Oh so now you want me to fix your APC? Can I get those upgraded tools first please? Thanks."

This is very toxic mentallity my man. "Someone didn't do what I want and got me annoyed so I will literally stop them from being able to enjoy their game".
You know the saying. If the world followed the rule eye for an eye we would all be blind.

 

I was ignored multiple times at RnD. Duh sometimes I would go there, get shutters closed on my face, I would message the scientist inside RnD, RD, Captain and maybe CE on PDA to whine, to just get a response from anyone and get ignored. I would knock on the window to RnD for like 10 minutes asking if anyone's inside, while calling out science on common radio every 30 seconds or so just to never get any response. I know that RnD can literally ignore you, but that's why we literally have heard of staff. Not to just be "Scientist++" or "Engineer++", but to maintain their department. And if RD is an ass then there's a captain who's job is to maintain heads of staff.

Does asking RD and Captain always works? No.
But it should work.

[BottomQuark]

As for the original post.

I play mostly engineer.
And honestly for engineering 90% of people that come there are there to ask for stuff not break in.
People break in only if they need these  blueprints for their antag missions.

I had seen assistants going to HoP to become engineer, sometimes they even ask for a title "Engineer Trainee" or "Engineer Assistant" and then start learning engineering and actually helping.
I also had seen assistants walking up to the engineering doors and just asking if we have spare toolbelt for them or smth.
We usually give those out without a problem.

But someone breaks in (or walks in when the doors are opened by engi) and just tries to take anything?
Fuck this guy I'm calling security on this guy ass.

If you respect other people they will respect you back.
Be an ass and people will be an ass to you too.

I think spark made a very good point here.

 

I also don't think doing someone else's job if they are not present is that bad of a thing. If the chef is long dead and there's no fodd I have no problem with someone doing their job. But for the love of god, go to HoP and get access to kitchen legit way.

Maybe I'm expecting too big level of RP from people I dunno, but when I see people just breaking into places when they could've ask head for a temporary pass or just get access from HoP, I straight up cringe.

[Aligote]

18 hours ago, BottomQuark said:

I was ignored multiple times at RnD. Duh sometimes I would go there, get shutters closed on my face, I would message the scientist inside RnD, RD, Captain and maybe CE on PDA to whine, to just get a response from anyone and get ignored. I would knock on the window to RnD for like 10 minutes asking if anyone's inside, while calling out science on common radio every 30 seconds or so just to never get any response. I know that RnD can literally ignore you, but that's why we literally have heard of staff. Not to just be "Scientist++" or "Engineer++", but to maintain their department. And if RD is an ass then there's a captain who's job is to maintain heads of staff.

Does asking RD and Captain always works? No.
But it should work.

18 hours ago, BottomQuark said:

If you respect other people they will respect you back.
Be an ass and people will be an ass to you too.

I think spark made a very good point here.

 

I also don't think doing someone else's job if they are not present is that bad of a thing. If the chef is long dead and there's no fodd I have no problem with someone doing their job. But for the love of god, go to HoP and get access to kitchen legit way.

Maybe I'm expecting too big level of RP from people I dunno, but when I see people just breaking into places when they could've ask head for a temporary pass or just get access from HoP, I straight up cringe.

I think it's safe to say this post is about how to deal with other players. I don't think the narrow view that respect would get respect back is foolproof, because honestly, it just won't sometimes. The RD shouldn't be a jerk when you respectfully ask for them to open shutters, but sometimes they just stay closed. HOP shouldn't make tedious side objective hunts for a pass, but that happens. You can try to respectfully interact with the chef by standing on the door edge to keep their attention while you try and talk, and you can get your neck chopped and shoved out. Of course, you should respect other players, but I don't think that excuses how other players may disrespect you with their method of dealing with "trespassers".  Asking for a pass is a fine course of action, but I don't think it's the only way because of how players are. 

I don't think anybody directly denied that public soup kitchens are bad. But I don't think you are obligated to go to HOP and be coerced into becoming the chef, which is the natural course of that interaction. Never mind convenience/gameplay-wise, assistants or other crewmembers taking the initiative to hop over the table and cook until a proper chef arrives is the entire reason I find public soup kitchens endearing. They're not gonna sacrifice their current occupation to stay fed, they're gonna bake basic bread. Add that along with the gameplay convenience of getting people fed faster. Even if it's disconnected from if a chef was already there, it just goes to show the benefit not focusing on workplace trespassing may have, especially if a chef does finally arrive and not immediately kick everyone out.

I also think there's an important difference between breaking or walking into a workplace. On this topic about keeping others out, I think it is important to differentiate how you deal with either situation. Putting someone in a chokehold for merely walking in before they could explain themselves isn't as condonable to me personally. I just believe it's best that such tendencies for one's workplace be tamed somewhat.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Aligote

[BottomQuark]

That is a fair point @Aligote.

As I said I maybe expect too much RP which makes things inconvenient for players. It's not heavy RP server after all.

But yeah I agree there's a difference in how you should treat other people. It's all context. I think I didn't do a good job in separating the cases of when people break in or just walk in so let me explain myself.

When I said 

15 hours ago, BottomQuark said:

But someone breaks in (or walks in when the doors are opened by engi) and just tries to take anything?
Fuck this guy I'm calling security on this guy ass.

I meant that when the guy commits theft, that's the moment when I'm calling security regardless of what the guy says or did to get into my workplace. Obviously if the guy breaks in I'm gonna be more agitated than if the guy just asked.

 

so yeah to TL;DR on my stance:

if you act like asshole, people will treat you like asshole. If someone is an ass we have IC and OOC ways to deal with people like that. I'm fine with people getting legit access to do some work in other department, I'm ok-ish with people breaking in if something is really needed but no one is present to do this job. I'm not ok with people stealing stuff from other people's workplace. I'm also not ok with people getting aggressive over someone being incompetent. Don't break into other people's workplaces. Don't be an ass.

it's a God damn funny multiplayer spess people gaem. 

[GeepyGoop]

Yep, pain in the ass. It's like, what the hell are you doing here? Wait in line with everyone else

[AidanFair]

On 9/15/2023 at 2:29 PM, BottomQuark said:

Well that's straight up griefing at this point. You can't just break into somewhere and grief other player's workplace, doesn't matter if they annoy you or not.
If sciencists are not doing their job then you should contact RD to either get them to work or fire them.
If RD is not working contact Captain, NT Rep or IAA to get them to work.

imagine you're a roboticist, other roboticist is completely new and incompetent and you go out of your workplace to fix some shit, or to eat and get some mats from cargo
You come back and you see some asshat broke in and is doing your job as librarian bcs their IPC friend is dead.
I would be mad and I imagine you would be too if you came into hacked open doors to your workplace.

 

This is very toxic mentallity my man. "Someone didn't do what I want and got me annoyed so I will literally stop them from being able to enjoy their game".
You know the saying. If the world followed the rule eye for an eye we would all be blind.

 

I was ignored multiple times at RnD. Duh sometimes I would go there, get shutters closed on my face, I would message the scientist inside RnD, RD, Captain and maybe CE on PDA to whine, to just get a response from anyone and get ignored. I would knock on the window to RnD for like 10 minutes asking if anyone's inside, while calling out science on common radio every 30 seconds or so just to never get any response. I know that RnD can literally ignore you, but that's why we literally have heard of staff. Not to just be "Scientist++" or "Engineer++", but to maintain their department. And if RD is an ass then there's a captain who's job is to maintain heads of staff.

Does asking RD and Captain always works? No.
But it should work.

In reality I don't actually do this much. Usually I just let it go. But I want my BS matter bins and femto manips damn it! I can see then in there! You just printed a bunch. I would use my RCD to "grief" as you put it. But the engineering autolathe is un-upgraded. And low on mats. And I can't afford it right now. Please hand over the parts so I can afford to use my RCD to deconstruct your walls to get the parts I need.

(I'm sorry I have a weird sense of humour. A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek.)