Complaint Against Samman166 - Improper Application of Rules, and Feedback on Server as a Whole

[TheBadPerson]

Admin(s) Key: Samman166

Your ckey (Byond username): TheBadPerson

Your Discord name (if applicable): TheBadPerson

 

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 9/23/2023 3:23:32

 

ROUND ID: Unknown

 

Nature of complaint: Misapplication of Rules, Misconduct, Feedback,

 

Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:

 JOB_PERMABAN: Security - REASON: As a non antagonist security officer attempted to set all of cargo to arrest for not helping them order guns. Stunned the HOS, and an ERT who tried to talk to them about it. In fairness the HOS was extremely incompetent and things were extremely chaotic. However the situation with cargo was better handled by ahelping and not trying to resolve it yourself by stunning and then attacking cargo members, aswell stunning the ERT who was infact there to solve the mess of the previous HOS and was trying to speak to you was uncalled for. I gave you chances to redeem yourself and work with the ERT and bring it back before you I took this straight to OOC punishment but you have dissapointed me on that. Tempers flare and people get angry however it is a game and cryo exists for a reason, if you aren't enjoying things and it's just frustrating or you are getting too heated use it., by samman166; 2023-09-23 03:23:32

 

Brief description:

This complaint will deal with two things; The incorrect application of rules and lack of judgment used by Samman, and the toxic culture this server has cultivated lately regarding security and antagonists. I played as security during a particularly stressful round and tried to escalate to save the situation, and was massively self-antagged by cargo. I tried to deal with this IC, and the events that proceeded IC’ly, and Samman decided that was “disappointing” and applied a security ban. They failed to properly understand the full situation, and therefore inappropriately applied a job ban.

As for this complaint, I want my security ban removed, I want the note removed off my account, and I want to bring attention to what I and MANY others (some privately, some publicly) consider to be a budding problem on the server.

 

Full description of events:

 

Part 1  - The Details and Job Ban

I was playing security officer on a particularly awful round. Security had been wiped by loud teaming traitors as is often the case. The Round-Start Captain, Head of Security, and Head of Personnel were completely silent and refusing to use communication (this is a relevant detail). Naturally I know my only option at this point is to significantly escalate by ordering rifles at cargo. I go to get cargo access from the HOP so myself and another officer can protect the bay while the guns arrive.

We order the guns and go to send the shuttle back so we can start the process. We can’t. There are some cargo techs inside the shuttle. I ask them to leave the shuttle. They refuse. I ask again. They refuse. I try to arrest them since at this point, they are preventing security from getting weapons in what was basically a code gamma situation (it was code red at the time, it raised to gamma soon after).

The cargo techs proceed to then self-antag, disarming and attacking me of either my gun or baton, I forget which. The entire cargo department gets involved so we are unable to order the guns. I return to brig to try and regroup and set the primarily responsible CTs to arrest for assault on an officer and aiding and abetting eoc, which was obviously a bit much, but the situation was ridiculous. KEEP IN MIND teaming traitors are rampaging the station as security is mostly wiped and cargo is busy self-antagging for no other reason than to OOC’ly make myself and other security players miserable.

We return AGAIN to cargo to try and get the guns since the new captain stepped in to try and force cargo to stop self-antagging and get the guns. We go to the bay. They start shoving me AGAIN. I try to arrest them again. They disarm another weapon so I fire off some shots since its 4 cargo techs vs myself. This is perfectly within the lethal response chart keep in mind.

We FINALLY get the guns and make a small team to respond to the traitors. At this point gamma is in place, and an ERT called. As we are moving out the Head of Security who has said nothing and done nothing the entire round calls me to the hop line to be demoted out of the blue. So after an HOUR of trying to save this ridiculous round, I am to be demoted for responding to cargo self antaggers. IC’ly I respond by batonning the HoS and moving to leave the station to lavaland. The ERT member stops me, who I at the time believed to be the HoS once more since the ID icons are the same. I non-lethally stun them, walk away, and continue trying to get into the cargo shuttle. They proceed to laser me to death as I stare at them in disbelief.

So to summarize:

I try to get guns, cargo refuses multiple times for no reason. I try to detain them off the shuttle and they self-antag and assault me and disarm me of weapons. They are justifiably set to arrest. I return. They attack again. It is 1 vs 4 and they continue to disarm, so I fire warning shots at them to get them off me, which is 100% valid within the lethals chart.

After all of this I am rewarded IC with an impending demotion by a HoS that had up to that point not existed, so my IC response to baton the HoS was completely justified. I try to leave the station. An ERT that I thought to be the HoS once more tries to stop me from leaving a station that IC’ly has betrayed me at every turn so I stun them and try to leave, and am killed immediately after.

Samman’s Response and my Rebuttal:

Samman bwoinks me for an explanation and I tell them what happened. They proceed to fail to explain any rule break I committed, and simply state they are “disappointed” in how I handled things. They fail to address the self-antagging in cargo, and completely ignore the IC justification for a very mild rebuke of the HoS in which I stunned them once, and completely ignored the fact that I didn’t even realize the ERT was not the HoS. And even if I had realized, at that point it was a perfectly IC response to gently rebuke the ERT to attempt to continue leaving the station that had at that point OOCly abused me the entire round.

So Samman effectively applied a job ban on me for setting warrants on a self-antagging cargo bay borderlining on mutiny, and having an INCREDIBLY mild IC rebuke of the HoS and ERT (they quite literally were both stunned once). Read the job ban message very carefully, and ask yourself where the rulebreaks or job ban-worthy misconduct is stated? Samman applied the ban because my IC response was not what they personally wanted in an incredibly complex and chaotic situation.

 

Part 2 – The Toxic Security vs Antagonist Culture

This entire situation brings to light a problem that I and many others have begun to notice develop over the past few months. The OOC attacks on security players, and the entitlement of antagonists is starting to get ridiculous, and it is in some cases being parroted by admins and mentors alike.

I have REPEATEDLY over the last few months seen numerous people both in game, and out of game on the discord voice their disdain for security players existing, and how they enjoy going out of their way to make things more difficult for security players. There is no IC justification for it, they just want to OOC’ly make security players miserable. This cargo situation was a PERFECT example of this entitlement attitude. It is LRP, and its also a massive dick move.

I will do the service of not naming and shaming here, but I have seen ADMINS AND MENTORS complaining about things as mundane as security players performing random searches, or stepping into departments to perform tasks in emergencies. This is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY coming from admins and mentors who quite frankly should know better.

I have seen people on multiple occasions bad mouth and slander common security players openly on the discord for no other reason than them playing the game and happening to redtext antagonists. I personally have had people emote on prior ban appeals to troll me, spread malicious rumors about myself and others in DChat, and openly lie about me on outside forums like reddit, insinuating that I bait newer players to break rules so they get banned which is of course a ridiculous lie.

Overall, you may or may not have noticed that almost everyone who plays security doesn’t stick around. Almost every single security “main” that I played with when I joined this server around last October has quit. This is because you are constantly attacked IC and OOC by people in every sphere of the game and outside of it, and the admins will NEVER have your back. The sheer lack of empathy and understanding for security players is wild.

Quite literally the “meta” for security is to just immediately cryo the second things get bad. How freaking sad is that? But it makes sense. If you break a few eggs so to speak to try and do the impossible, you will enjoy having to explain your every action to an admin, since security is so restrained in having any sort of human IC response to the insanity you are repeatedly exposed to.

My point is this: I would like to see admins be SIGNIFICANTLY more understanding of security in the future. The only admins I can point out that I know for a fact have significant security experience are Marm and Matttheficus. Security is the hardest role in the game bar none outside antagonist roles. Nothing else comes close. The level of salt and malice you get exposed to can be INTENSE. Instead of joining the dogpile on security, it would be nice to see admins make any sort of effort to empathize.

 

Final Thoughts:

Yep it’s a lot of salt over a video game but I think it needed to be said. My feelings are in fact a tad hurt over it. I joined this server to make friends and in that I have succeeded. That said I do not feel like I am given any benefit of the doubt by admins, and I don’t think they make a reasonable effort to understand my side of things. This is a great server, but I think the admins need to do a better job of being understanding of people in the future.

[necaladun]

Hi there, I won't be ruling on this at all but I'd like to offer some commentry on the whole situation you've began to notice over the past few months.

You may have only noticed it in the past few months, but this has been somewhat of a constant over the past 10 years on Paradise, and the problem existed on our precursors and many, many other servers. This is not unique to Paradise, this community, or any recent events. Shitcurity was an old meme when I started playing ~11 years ago.

There are a multitude of reasons for this. It'd take an extended essay on the psychology of players to discuss all of that. I'll try to keep it brief.

1: Fucking with security is fun.

Antagging can be incredibly thrilling and exciting, due to the competitve PVP nature of this. Engaging in crimes, fighting people, and playing cat-and-mouse with security is very fun to a lot of people, and they will jump at the chance to do it. If you've ever gotten an adrenaline rush in the midst of combat, you'll know this to be true. This thrill is what some people play for, and we created the self-antagging rules to cut down on the amount of this that is allowed. If you think it's bad now, imagine how it was when you could raid the entire armoury as a non-antag, as long as you didn't kill anyone in the process. 

This can be justified to some extent ICly, but it's usually just an excuse to have fun. You wouldn't believe some of the excuses we've heard for self-antagging. I actually have a lot of respect for players who respond 'because it was fun' when we asked them why they just did whatever god awful self antagging they just did.

2: All Security Are Bastards mentality.

Security are 'the man'. They've the jackbooted thugs that enforce the will of a morally bankrupt megacorporation. This breeds and us-vs-them menality when it comes to crew and security. They're the ones who stop you from doing your shennigans, and are seen as the 'fun police'. This is bad enough as it is, but then add in the fact that any player with a few months under their belt has likely seen some pretty shitty behaviour from security, and you see why 'shitcurity' is called so easily. 

This us-and-them mentality leads security to see the crew as enemies, and the crew to see security as enemies. Rarely are interactions with security beneficial - if they're arriving to save you from an attacker, they're usually too late to save you. And God forbid they don't know who started the fight, so arrest both people to figure it out!

This is a problem that IRL cops have too, and has likely gotten worse over the past few decades - especially with recent events and movements in the USA. IRL, this problem has not been solved. People's bias against IRL Police is reflected here in play. 

Here's a great example of a player showing that mentality:

Quote

TheBadPerson (Ekss Laess) (follow) salts, "i am just murderboning from now on im so done"
TheBadPerson (Ekss Laess) (follow) copes, "just goin 357 and killin sec"
TheBadPerson (Ekss Laess) (follow) copes, "sec deserves it"

3: Power Corrupts.

Security officers have more power over the crew than any other job on the station. They can even arrest the Captain. Some security players have abused this power. Plenty more have been incompetent or inexperienced and misused this power to other player's detriment. Back when "Insulting an officer" was a brigworthy crime, this was absolutely at it's worst. 

This also means Security also attracts some of the worst players, those who enjoy holding this power over others and abusing it. This is also another huge problem with IRL police, that has not been solved. IAA is meant to perform this role both IRL and in SS13, and in both cases is usually utterly incompetent or complicit in these abuses.

Due to the power here for security to utterly ruin rounds for people, either through malice or incompetence, security staff have to be under a much, much tighter leash than other players - hence the 'held to higher standards' part of the rules. This is not done because admins hate security. There are many security mains and less regular players in the admin staff, and being known as a good security player goes a long way in someone getting their admin application accepted.

4: The Thin Red Line.

Part of the 'us vs them' mentality, security have a tendancy to stick together and back each other up....unless the security officer is utterly incompetent and embarrassing the rest of the team. And it is a 'team' - no other department tend to stick together as much as others, although Cargo can often be quite tight (As you found out).

This means that the actions of one security member get's reflected across the entire team. You might have done nothing wrong when arresting a grey tider, but he remembers the other security member who harmbatoned the clown for slipping them. 

While this sucks, the camadre between security members is great and realistic RP, and should be encouraged. Personally, I wish this meant that sec took more time to train and improve each other. "Officer Cadet" roles have been floated around with this idea, which could be revived.

5: Hypervigilance.

As a security officer, you need to be constantly on alert. For the entire 2 hour round, you must be ready to drop everything at a moments notice and storm across the station to respond to crimes - and if you're 30seconds late, you'll never hear the end of it. On top of being a loot pinata for Antags, this makes security play exhausting. This leads to tired and grumpy players, which leads to worse security performance, and the cycle begins again.

6: Mistakes Happen.

Even the best and most attentive, intelligent security player who has memorized every line of space law can make mistakes. 90% of the time this is due to poor communication. Plenty of situations require a judgement call where you have to choose whose word to believe. Often, this defaults to the loudest. More often, it defaults to the most numerous. If 4 people saw you harmbaton the clown to death in a corridor after slipping you, then they're going to scream bloody murder and demand 'justice' for the clown. The poor officer trying to tell them that he was a changeling may often just get drowned out.

Players often feel they're entitled to treat security like shit for mistakes like this. In this case - you believed the HoS to have a made a mistake in demoting you, so you attacked him. With a baton. On Code Gamma. 

So what do these all add up to?

Frankly a pretty shitty and annoying culture and situation. In my time, I've done what I've can to try to address this. The high security turnover rate is an example of this, and we've taken many measures to try to stop this culture, and improve the experiences of players - both security and non-security. Some of these were a great success. (Seriously, 'insulting an officer' as a charge? Which fucking IDIOT put that into space law? (Do NOT go look at the history on the wiki to blame him :P)). A lot of discussion has happened over a decade between admin staff about how to do this.

If you think the admin staff have not noticed it, are biased against security, or don't care about security as players then you need to pull your head in. The staff members care about the server. They care about the players. They would not spend the huge amount of time and effort they do on it if they didn't. If you think staff members never have security's back, then you're just completely wrong. Let me give you an example of a ban from when an admin was concerned about how a player was dealing with security:

Quote

Permanently banned - Continuing to get angry in game to the point that it ruins the fun of other players. After being arrested continuously cursed at officers, told them to go eff themselves, said they wasted their time because he's just gunna cryo anyways, etc. It's clear that this isn't roleplay and is trying to ruin their fun due to your anger. Getting arrested is part of what happens as an antag, going to cryo after being processed is fine, trying to ruin the officer's experience isn't. Ban is being placed because this pattern of behaviour has continuied after multiple warnings. I'd recommend taking a bit of time off before appealing, it's easy to get overly invested in the game sometimes.

Now as for this situation that ended up with you being banned, I see a lot of these factors coming into play. A huge common factor here is a lack of empathy and seeing things from other people's perspectives. I haven't checked the logs or anything, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of believing everything you say - except for the assumption of other people's motivation.

Ordering the cargo techs off the shuttle is a quite reasonable order. Refusing said order on code red is absolutely grounds for arrest, and legally speaking you were utterly within your rights to arrest them for it. 

Once you do that however, you have chosen to escalate to violence. In their perspective, you have come into their workplace, ordered them around, and threatened violence when they refused to follow your orders. I haven't checked the logs to see how this went down, but I'd be willing to bet money that with so many people there and so much going on, it would be difficult to have a calm and rational conversation about this - especially when there's the ticking time limit of the guns that sec need.

Considering your past tendancies to get very, very angry (to the point of telling people to kill themselves) - I'm questioning how your orders may have come across. It is entirerly possible to be completely in the right, and still come off as a complete asshole. This is usually when people come off as the most assholish of all - they come across as self-righteous!

You may have been in your rights to escalate things like that, but was it a good idea? If you think they're intentionally trying to make trouble for you - what did you think would happen when you attempted to arrest them? Not what they should do. What they will do.

As for the optics of this - how do you think this looked to other cargo members and general crew, when they don't have the full picture of things? Always remember the optics. I'm willing to guess a lot of players thought you were being 'shitcurity' in this case.

You then went back for a second time and ran into the same situation. I'm not sure what you were expecting. This doesn't make what they did right by any stretch, but there's something about that old saying of the definition of insanity.

If you honestly believed they were self antagging (Which they might have been. One of them might also have been an antag, which makes trying to take a 4-v-1 fight on also quite silly.) - then you should have ahelped. If people are breaking the OOC rules, then you need to use OOC measures to put a stop to that. Your job is to deal with IC law. 

Understandably, you got angry and frustrated with this whole situation. 

You feel that all these actions meant you were then justified with attacking a superior officer during code gamma. I'm willing to bet that the cargo techs also felt their actions were justified, due to your behaviour. 

I see no reason to think that the HoS did this maliciously - they were likely told multiple different stories, and did what they thought was right. It might have been a mistake, but it also might have been the best move given the information he had at the time. 

We have here multiple situations where you have resorted to your baton rather than diplomacy. You have assumed the worst of people - and it seems you've also extended that assumption to the staff here. I can assure you that you're not winning any friends here by assuming the staff are unaware of the issues with security, or saying they don't make any effort to empathise. When you combine this with your previous notes and bans for doing the exact things you have complained about, you come off as incredibly lacking in self-awareness or understanding of the server.

 

If you really want to see a change to the culture of security on this server, then I suggest you lead by example. Be the change you want to see in the server. Take some time to think over your actions, both now and in the past, and work on your impulse control and anger. Demanding the Admins fix a problem that has plagued SS13 servers for over a decade will achieve nothing. The admins can only do so much to crack down on behaviour, and we rely on the community to work with us to improve it. 


As I said in the original, this isn't a ruling - I haven't played in a year or so, so it'd be pretty unfair for me to make a ruling! If you'd like to discuss the culture and issues with me, feel free to message me on discord (lets not clog up the AC itself with a discussion that could go on for months.). I'm pretty busy these days but when I have the time and energy, would be happy to chat about it. That goes for you too, people lurking and reading this who likely have their own opinions.

[DoctorDrugs]

Hello there I will be addressing the 1st part of this complaint while neca addresses your 2nd part of this complaint, I feel his write up is well worded enough that I don't have much more to add from my own end that he hasn't touched on or addressed. I intend to address this complaint broken up into parts in order to make this easier to read and address them in individual parts as needed.

Now onto the complaint here, This round after talking to admins and looking through the logs for a few hours to build a timeline of the general flow of the round seemed to be a very hectic round that all can be summed up as leadership issues in game. Everything seems to have stemmed from a lack of communication between parts of security and command where people were either very new to the roles and unsure or were just general uncaring about the on going round. This caused issues throughout the round that make the round feel a lot more chaotic than it needed or should've really been. As I can find from the logs of that round the antags weren't all heavily teaming up but instead there was periods where high activity from one antag bled into another antag being just as active and aggressive with security/station going after their objectives. There was groups of antags working together in small groups of 2-3 at points but also points where antags were fighting each other to near death at points. That round was incredibly hectic looking even after the fact with hindsight from being able to track everything that happened throughout the round via game logs. 

On to the Cargo/HoP portion here, You requested cargo access from the HoP who you felt was going very slow and expressed such feelings to them directly. After the initial request your frustration with the round starts to become rather apparent as this is when things start to spiral downwards in terms of how things are handled. Typing in all caps in security chat to remind people to respond to calls for help after earlier dieing and losing your weapons prompting the need for more/replacements. In cargo itself when a Cargo Tech didn't leave the shuttle you screamed for them to get off, below starts with you attempting to order guns/sending the shuttle:
    [2023-09-23T02:23:06] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (88,119,2):  'fucking cargo man'
    [2023-09-23T02:23:15] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (67,116,2):  'GET OFF'
    [2023-09-23T02:23:17] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (67,116,2):  'THE SHUTTLE'
    [2023-09-23T02:23:19] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (66,116,2):  'NOW'
    [2023-09-23T02:23:25] ATTACK: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess)(65,114,2) against x/(Cwm)(64,113,2): Knocked down with the telescopic baton
I wouldn't consider screaming at someone to get off the shuttle and then batoning them in a few seconds as asking them to get off the shuttle. This then devolved into shoving, disarming and the occasional punch at first before eventually turning into melee weapons being used. Devolving further from that point onward as the cargo situation blew up with the escalation.
    [2023-09-23T02:26:09] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (130,131,2): (headset) 'cargo is aiding and abetting all eoc'
    [2023-09-23T02:26:15] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (153,128,2): (headset) 'i advise a gamme alert and ert'
    [2023-09-23T02:26:21] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (175,128,2): (headset) 'im done helping'
    [2023-09-23T02:26:32] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (195,112,2): (Security) 'dont care'
    [2023-09-23T02:26:41] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (197,98,2): (Security) 'all of cargo needs to be killed for mutiny'

Now I want to quickly talk about the ERT involvement,
[2023-09-23T02:57:10] ATTACK: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess)(88,106,2) against y/(Sergeant Pavlov)(ANTAG)(87,105,2): stunned
[2023-09-23T02:57:13] SAY: y(Sergeant Pavlov) (87,105,2):  'Can you not?'
[2023-09-23T02:57:14] ATTACK: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess)(88,106,2) against y/(Sergeant Pavlov)(ANTAG)(87,105,2): stunned
[2023-09-23T02:57:17] SAY: y/(Sergeant Pavlov) (87,105,2):  'We're not here to be your enemy.'
[2023-09-23T02:57:21] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (83,105,2):  'you are'
[2023-09-23T02:57:22] EMOTE: y/(Sergeant Pavlov) (87,105,2): sighs.
[2023-09-23T02:57:22] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (83,105,2):  'im done'
[2023-09-23T02:57:23] SAY: TheBadPerson/(Ekss Laess) (83,105,2):  'bye'
[2023-09-23T02:57:23] SAY: y/(Sergeant Pavlov) (87,105,2):  'very well.'
After this point it turns into them disablering you and then shooting you quite a lot with lethals till you died and then were later revived before exchanging PMs with Samman166. Personally I don't agree with what the ERT member did with killing you with lethals but it was set to gamma alert at roughly [2023-09-23T02:34:26] so 20 minutes before this point, originally it looks like the ERT was sent specifically to handle the issues with the current round and help try to fix the issues going on at the time. 

Honestly this whole situation could've been avoided by doing one of three things; Ahelping regarding the cargo incident that round, ahelping the issues with command members or by removing yourself from the round and taking a step back to relax. Majority of the issue here was made worse by getting angrier and angrier as time went on and things progressed through that round. Some of these could've been handled much better on your end, especially the interactions with command and cargo itself. This seems to boil down into a if you're getting frustrated playing a role or the game then it's a good idea to take a step back, relax and try to handle things with a clear head rather then letting yourself get more and more upset and frustrated. That and/or ahelping command would've probably gone a long way into improving the outcome of the round. As it stands I see no misconduct from Samman's actions here or misapplication of the server's rules, you were banned specifically for the attitude and escalation of the cargo incident that could've been easily handled via ahelping rather than stunning and attacking cargo to try and take things into your own hand.

[TheBadPerson]

I have a job to do, I’m done stressing about this and I’m not gonna have a long back and forth. I’m gonna say my piece and be done. Uphold or reverse the banning admins call and close the complaint. This will be typed out quick on mobile. 
 

To Necs post, I have little to say. It’s a bad faith attempt to make me look bad. If I had a log full of every single thing the person I was debating with has said that I could control F keywords in, I bet it wouldn’t look so good on you either. As for the quotes you posted, yea I’m a seether.
 

I seethe. Always have. I also don’t act on what I say when I seethe. I am one of the most even handed active antag players and have a long repeat history of specifically reducing what I personally want to do to ensure sec and others have fun. Do I have any notes for murderboning security or powergaming? No I don’t. 
 

As for badmouthing sec, haven’t done it since the voucher ban months ago. But yea super relevant to the conversation. I go out of my way to help people and enable others fun on this server. The amount of players that can truly say the same is LOW. I know who’s who, I know who does what.

Not gonna have you destroy my reputation publicly because you copy pasted some of my highlight reels out of my logs. There is some actual content to Necs post and a lot of it is even true, but it’s completely overshadowed by personal attacks so I’m disregarding it. 

As for the actual post by Doc, all I’ll say is I think it was an overreach. Did I behave perfectly? Nope. But there are several things I want to point out so we can at least say we discussed this fully. 
 

First off: I don’t understand why we allow command to have Carte Blanche to effectively just do nothing. I think we give command way too much OOC protection from IC consequences. If command chooses to play the round by ignoring responsibilities, they should expect increasing IC consequences. People say vote them out! Fax CC! This never happens. I’ve never seen it in over 1500 hours. It’s too hard to pull off and people don’t want to risk a Bwoink dealing with it IC. The ONLY time a captain or HoS gets demoted is through direct admin intervention. 
 

Second: The ERT sent by the admin quite literally made the entire situation WORSE. They did not communicate, and empowered an effectively mute captain and HoS. They came in, demoted a bunch of random sec for questionable reasons, and made most of sec either cryo or commit suicide. I believe the ERT was played by an admin as well which was EXTREMELY questionable. 
 

Third: Yes cargo did self antag. They did. This is not a debate, I was there. The primary cargo tech player responsible for starting the massive fight quite literally self antagged me AGAIN the other day. I honked them with a clown honker in the hall a single time and they chased me shoving me. Later I honk them again and they PULL A SURVIVAL KNIFE and lose a fight to me with boxing gloves and banana juice. They then try to jump me with a knife AGAIN and nearly kill me(they were not an antag I checked). So yes, there is a pattern of self antagging in that cargo bay. 

Lastly: You say ahelp repeatedly, but why is the go to ALWAYS to twist the admins arms and call for a referee every time something out of the ordinary happens? Do you truly want me and others to throw ahelps every time something questionable happens? Why can we not just handle these things IC? Once again, this is why everyone just cryos. It’s not worth dealing with. Where’s the fun in forcing an admin to handle weird situations, it’s better to just cryo. 
 

I wasn’t peachy to deal with in cargo, or dealing with the HoS/ERT. That said, if they REPEATEDLY ignore me, attack me, and screw me over, at a certain point I think it’s fair I’m no longer theirs to command. This is why I still think it was an overreach. If they didn’t want their security officer to baton them, why didn’t they help a single time, and in fact make everything WORSE?!

 

This is a long complaint with an insane amount of details, that was just the last bit I wanted to elaborate on. It’s already hard to read as is. If you uphold the banning admins call I’m just going to adjust my playstyle to the meta of cryo-sec, as it’s clearly the meta for a reason. Maybe I’ll get more midround rolls that way.
 

I don’t agree with you (Doc), but I do appreciate you looking at this, as I imagine it was a pain in the ass to investigate. You weren’t hostile and you went over it in detail. That’s all I asked.  
 

[necaladun]

On 10/3/2023 at 12:23 AM, TheBadPerson said:

To Necs post, I have little to say. It’s a bad faith attempt to make me look bad. If I had a log full of every single thing the person I was debating with has said that I could control F keywords in, I bet it wouldn’t look so good on you either. As for the quotes you posted, yea I’m a seether.

Hi there - I didn't actually scan through any logs or ctrl-f, I just picked the two examples in your notes. This and the ban were to show the admins do in fact care about this type of thing, and do take action about it, as well as highlight that you're complaining about a culture that you yourself have been part of and encouraged. Despite your insistence that no effort is made to empathise, admins have on many, many occasions warned or even banned players for how they treat security.

As you've been the victim of shitcurity, I hoped this would cause some self-reflection and spur insight into why people act towards security the way they do. Some self-awareness can go a long way here. 

 

On 10/3/2023 at 12:23 AM, TheBadPerson said:

Lastly: You say ahelp repeatedly, but why is the go to ALWAYS to twist the admins arms and call for a referee every time something out of the ordinary happens? Do you truly want me and others to throw ahelps every time something questionable happens? Why can we not just handle these things IC? Once again, this is why everyone just cryos. It’s not worth dealing with. Where’s the fun in forcing an admin to handle weird situations, it’s better to just cryo. 

You both want admins to deal with things, but also want things to be dealt with IC. When they are handled IC (Such as how ERT dealt with you), you want them to be handled with perfect knowledge of the entire round and communication. 

Admins aren't following you around the whole round - you are not the main character. Without you ahelping, admins don't know there's a situation that may need our involvement, such as with self-antagging. If you're in a situation where you are getting angry OOCly, you need to step back. 

If you want to see a change in the server culture, then you need to work with the admins. You also need to be the change you want to see in the server. This means that you need to reel in the 'seething', and lead by example. Getting angry at players and resorting to violence gives security a bad wrap and helps feed the vicious cycle of sec-vs-crew. 

I'd love to know what caused you to change from being very anti-sec to being very pro-sec - this could give us some great insight into how to help shift server culture.

[DoctorDrugs]

There is no OOC protections for Heads of Departments, if you saw issues with them being consistently unresponsive you should've brought it up in a manner that could've gotten results, Admins can easily do one of many things both IC wise and OOC wise to incentivize heads of departments to do the things they should. Be that IC methods such as subtle messages, headset messages, sending someone to directly talk to them IC from CC, making a CC announcement or a fax to name most of the methods admins can use to take IC action, failing those or if needed we have OOC methods such as directly messaging the player(s) in question or forcing open a chat window to get their attention and response.

There's ways to go about solving problematic heads of departments but that requires a competent Captain/NTR to remove the problematic heads, when you have a problematic captain and head of department then it's a recipe for disaster as there's no IC solution for removal outside of convincing the problematic heads/captain to step down/cryo. When it comes to it being that bad then it's usually a good idea to Ahelp the problematic players so that admins can prevent the round from devolving into complete chaos or a painful experience for people due to incompetency. 

The whole point that Samman was making was that there was much better ways to solve issues with the round or with the problematic heads that were causing the round to devolve into chaos for security/command/station, instead you acted hostile and aggressive to people only escalating issues even further. If that player had self antaged you in a previous round that should've been ahelped and handled appropriately, if it was and that player continued to do so in the round you were job banned then it would've been handled and resolved appropriately. While I may be repeating myself here once more but the whole jobban and issues could've been avoided here by simply addressing the issues you saw with the heads of departments/captain with an ahelp and an explanation of the issues. Admins are people as well, logs come in mass and are quickly drowned in say logs, me emotes, attack logs/other warnings. It makes it hard and difficult for staff to find things that aren't ahelp'd or mentioned to admins with how fast chat can fly by especially when the round becomes hectic and chaotic. If you see a problem say something to the admins or ahelp it so that the admins can become aware of situations that transpire that need addressing, even if you think it's already been ahelp'd by someone else (worse case scenario you get a message we're already handling it/looking into it).

At the end of the day, what Samman did was warranted and completely within his power as an admin to do, If you want to continue this discussion we can or if you have more questions/comments otherwise I will mark this as resolved and finalize it. I also want to note that I apologize if my grammar was less than stellar here in this reply or if words are misspelled badly as I have been feeling quite sick all day before posting this but a quick response is warranted rather than waiting till I felt better.

[DoctorDrugs]

since there's been no response to my last post for over 2 weeks, going to assume this was considered resolved and will be marking it as such.