Note Clarification

[Komrad822]

Admin(s) Key: Coolrune206
Your ckey (Byond username): Komrad822
Your Discord name (if applicable): Komrad (Hector/Erudita)

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): October 8th, 2023

ROUND ID: NA

Nature of complaint: Clarification request/feedback

Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: NA

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): A note was applied to my account that reads "October 8 - as a non-hijack Antagonist, jumped into a fight between a Hijacker and their allies vs Security, engaging officers with a mini e-bow. no ahelp to assist the hijacker but was assisting another antag before it spiraled out of hand". It omits a key detail with assisting the hijacker and is false in its last statement since I was not assisting another antag at the time, merely running into them and talking with them.

Full description of events: Wanna start with saying, I don't have anything against Coolrune and I don't even know if they were the one who placed the note on my account as there were multiple other admins online, they were just the one who talked to me. Also there was likely great discussion with the other admins before deciding to do so. I've already talked to a headmin about this and they say its more a neutral standing but a note is a note and if its neutral I don't know why it leaves out key details that will be expressed below. 

 

Round start, objectives were to kill someone and steal super matter sliver. I toss codewords over comms and I learn of various tots around the station and then get messages from some. One was Capella, they were an Explorer and I asked for a helmet with flash resistance but they seemed disinterested in getting it for me. Will note from this point on I didn't pay attention to any messages from them or on comms as I began talking with other tots in my direct vicinity such as Rufus who approached me and tossed a codeword at me. Eventually im contacted by an admin to do some funnier objectives which was to mug specific people of all their cash. I liked this idea and didn't involve round removing someone, just mugging them for their cash. I grabbed an ebow and adrenals and was ready. NOTE, one of my objectives was an officer, so I would have gone loud eventually as its still theft. 

Fast forward to right before the fight, I learn that the bartender is in sci chem with Rufus, and that the bartender is a hijacker. I learn that Andy Roid is also a tot. So currently there were 4 tots in science at one time. As I head north I see a fight with sec breaking out between Capella and security. I notice Capella has the wololo staff and robe and discern that the regular crew fighting sec are their thralls. They were losing the fight so I stood on the side lines and began as discretely as possible shooting officers from the side to assist. The fight drags on and no one is getting anywhere. Eventually an officer arrives and starts opening with lethals. I reposition but they notice and chace me into maints and begin dumping laser fire into me. I push further south into sci, to avoid them and make it a point to grab that officer to loot them as having a sec ID, cuffs, and a headset is advantageous to me, especially with the AI having seen what has been happening. I get them, AI locks down the area, I push to leave and eventually do so. Later im caught due to running into sec and constant reinforcements on their way to handle the Capella hoard. I did state overcomms my situation over comms to maybe give other the window to maybe break me out of my situation. 

 

After being caught I was talked to further by Coolrune and asked why I didn't ahelp to assist a hijacker as im supposed to. I stated I had 0 idea that Capella was a hijacker and that I was merely assisting another tot in handling the situation they were in. As the above scenario can be described as "see other tot in trouble, assist said tot, fight lasted longer than wanted, eventually leave." Again, I had ZERO idea Capella was a hijacker, which is what this note focuses on. I know ignorance isn't necessarily an excuse BUT how am I going to ahelp to help a hijacker if I have zero clues to the fact they are a hijacker. Fighting sec is not a clue, wololo staff is not a hijacker only item, and there was no non-sec murderbone that I noticed at the beginning or during the fight. This was mentioned in the talk thus why was it not mentioned in the note. Should I ahelp every single time I think about assisting another tot in a similar situation JUST incase they are hijack? Wanted clarification as to why this was the route taken for this note as it seems like its grabbing at straws. In the end, the only officer I can say that was definitely killed and looted was the one I was able to grab from the escaping officers which was also the one who shot me full of lasers. 

 

About the last section of the note, it states I was previously assisting another antag but I merely talked to other traitors around me that I saw, I never made any actions to assist another traitor whatsoever until the Capella fight. I merely asked Andy Roid to make a surgery bed and also I had been planning to use a specific item to kill my target until that objective was changed to mugging people for their money. What counts as assisting and why was this added to the note when the note mainly pertains to me assisting a hijacker without ahelping about it. Is assisting another traitor note worthy?

I understand there is context that I may be missing, there was ample time between when the talking and messaging took place that a discussion was held with other admins. My first reply may have not been the greatest on Coolrune initially messaging me but I had zero intention of helping any hijack take place, merely help the antag that I saw in trouble and then go on with my round. If fighting a group of sec is now a hijack level activity then please communicate with me here about that so other antag players know that.

Again, want clarification. Preferably the note more accurately define the situation or removed. But is there more to the note I don't see since im not an admin, I don't know. Lastly, again, I respect Coolrune and nothing against them with this AC.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Komrad822
removed a hanging parenthesis

[Coolrune206]

Good day,

As this is a note clarification request, I will speak as the noting admin. The subject for clarification is the nature of the note relating to the helping of the hijacker.

For starters, I'll cite the rule clarification I was referring to in this case:
Rule 6: Play Antagonists Responsibly
Antagonists are permitted to assist other antagonists with their objectives. They must tell you what their objectives are, before you can help them. They cannot simply request 'help'. They have to be specific about what the objective is, e.g: "The Syndicate asked me to kill X. Will you help?". This does not entitle you to mass-murder, or take other hijack-only actions, unless the person you are helping clearly tells you that they have hijack. If they do tell you that they have hijack, and you plan to help them by doing hijack-only actions, please ahelp this to let us know;

 

For starters, if you want to jump in and help antags with security, it's fine to do it to rescue them - however, you should also remember that you're a traitor there to do your own objectives and that throwing out your cover and jumping into an ongoing murderball to save someone to no clear benefit to your objectives is not the best way to do it. That's not to say you can't try to rescue a traitor you see getting captured, but if you see someone trying to kill the entire security force, jumping in to "rescue" them might not be the most prudent idea. 

To your point of not knowing Capella was a hijacker, I will then ask - why help? If you haven't reached out to them, established some point of mutual interest via objectives, why break cover to help? Heck, you established that they had been unwilling to help you in the past. It would be one thing if you were using the chaos caused by another traitor to snipe an involved objective but from what was communicated to me, this was done for the sole purpose of helping them, as you made the distinction to me that you were going to do this then go about your objectives. As such:

1 hour ago, Komrad822 said:

Should I ahelp every single time I think about assisting another tot in a similar situation JUST incase they are hijack?

You should probably talk to the traitor yourself to determine this. If it's someone you've made no prior contact with or don't know what they're going for, what do you stand to gain by helping them? You made no indication to me that attacking security here was to your benefit when I spoke to you in the round. I might have understood if you tried to pick off a single security officer in the chaos for their gear but like you said were just taking potshots instead into the fray. Your grabbing of an officer for loot seems to have been an afterthought as you were chased off with lethals. 

Remember, while traitors can work together, they are not team antags that are obligated to work together - generally, working together should be to some ends of mutual benefit. Philanthropic does not generally describe a terrorist.

As for the rest of the complaint, your confusion is actually quite understandable, because it seems the note has been modified somewhat before being delivered. Here is the full note:

Quote

Neutral Note - as a non-hijack Antagonist, jumped into a fight between a Hijacker and their allies vs Security, engaging officers with a mini e-bow. They did not ahelp to get permission to help the hijack, but their intent seems to have been to rescue a fellow antag and it just got out of hand. They've been spoken to about ahelping to help hijackers and when it's appropriate to gun down security in the future.

I believe this more accurately describes the situation, and I understand how the note got mistranslated between contacts - they recorded your attempt to rescue an antag as assisting them, and you interpreted that as being a more long-term assistance. The note is also directly preceded by the phrase Neutral Note, for a few reasons:

1. I believe that your intention was ultimately not to just murderbunga security, and that you just over-eagerly jumped into a situation without considering the results. Intent means a lot in situations like these, which is a key part of why the note was neutral. I still felt relevant to reach out to you to explain why not to assist hijackers without ahelping as that was what was happening, though your claim that you didn't know they were hijacking was a surprise - why be helping them if you didn't know their objectives? In the future, I hoped you'd be more cautious when helping and establishing proper communications with them first.

2. Admin rulings in this kinda situation will differ. You suspected that I'd reached out to other admins to confer about this and you were right - the consensus was that it was probably a bit far, though the general idea of "how much is too far" isn't clearly defined. As such, this contributed to the fact that the note was recorded neutral.

So if it's a neutral note, why leave it at all? Because I did reach out and contact you and establish that, so it got noted down. If we talk to players about things, we generally slap a note there to clarify it's been talked about with them in case it happens again in the future. 

Does this explain my end of things? If there's something else you'd like me to go into further detail over, please inform me and I'd be happy to do so.

[Komrad822]

While I would have loved to have gotten their objectives before engaging, I didn't. While I don't agree with the notion "You don't know thus you shouldn't act" since initial assistance can be paid for later and whats the point in waiting on finding out their objectives if they will be caught right then and there.  Agree that for my objectives yes, it went too long and should have backed off earlier. I'm familiar with the "Talked to player, place the note" and I'm glad you and the other admins present classified it as a neutral. I appreciate the swift response Coolrune and the professional stance on it while also being understanding in my confusion.

Will say I did take into consideration "Do I wanna do this? I will be called out for this." But then figured "One of my muggings will be an officer. Ill be 'loud' eventually, lets help this dumb nerd now." But yeah, didnt have to, did, and now we're here. Will remember that assist clause in Rule 6 for later though.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Komrad822
It ate some of my reply somehow

[necaladun]

Apologies for the delay here, Heads have been very busy and Sirryan has had to step down due to time constraints leaving them shortstaffed, so I'm stepping in here to help a bit.

It appears the clarification and discussion here was productive - I'll be closing this as it appears resolved, please DM me if I'm incorrect in this assessment and I'll reopen it and seek further clarification.