Complaint Against Samman166

[falconignite]

Admin(s) Key: samman166
Your ckey (Byond username): falconignite
Your Discord name (if applicable): mysticjay

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 2023-10-07 03:59:02

ROUND ID: 37586

Nature of complaint:
misapplication of rules, inaccurately assessed situation

Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:
https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/24535-banned-by-samman166-ban-appeal-for-falconignite/

Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements):

He says I had been warned multiple times for valid hunt rules, but I had only received an admin PM once before (I think it was him, but it was a month ago so not sure) about valid hunt under a very different context in which I believe was also incorrect.
They believed that rescuing a kidnapped coworker that I witnessed being kidnapped while working with them is valid-hunting
They thought that pushing away the vampire while trying to stop him from chasing me and his target was excessive
When the vampire stunned a sec officer to try taking their gun and I got the gun instead and tried shooting him, they think that defending the officer was invalid

Full description of events:

Here are the events leading up to my previous warning:

In the previous incident, which I think it was also Samman but can't remember exactly as it was a month ago, I was a borg and witnessed a cling attack in the middle of the hallway. I pulled the victim to medbay, and as the cling attacked me with its armblade I attacked back. I hadn't been PM'd yet about this but it would be brought up later. An hour later, a chaplain I had been helping with building their church was kidnapped by a cling too and I followed them into space trying to pull the cuffed chaplain back into the safety of the station but I was killed by the cling. This was when I was admin PM'd and warned that going into space was going too far as a borg and counted as valid-hunt. They also said that I was attacking the cling in space when I didn't; I had only defended myself from the first cling earlier on. The second cling killed me before I could try defending myself. They said my actions were only valid with Paladin or Robocop lawsets despite the fact that the corporate lawset would justify a borg defending itself or rescuing a kidnapped or heavily injured victim. Even though I felt this admin was wrong, I didn't argue back and just apologized hoping not to escalate and decided I wouldn't try following an antag into space as a borg again without those laws.

Here are the events leading up to my current ban:

In the incident leading to my ban, Samman assessed that I was disarming a powered up vampire excessively and continued disarming it while sec was apprehending it. This is completely not true because I had stopped disarming when sec entered the scene and I had been disarming him to push him and slow his chase to his target and to prevent myself from getting glared. I vividly remember after me and another crewmate rescued the vampire's target, we began running the victim to medbay. Since the vampire continued chasing us, I shoved the vampire away to slow him down and prevent myself from getting glared. I managed to get a lucky knock down and tried to vendor him to make him stop his chase, but he quickly got back up. I continued for only a few more seconds before security entered the scene. I saw the officer had a gun and I moved out of the way to let him shoot the vampire but he got glared as soon as he got close to the vampire and dropped his gun. I knew that the vampire would kill the officer with the gun if I didn't grab it first so moved quickly and managed to grab it before the vampire and shot at the vampire, missing almost all the shots and throwing the gun onto the floor as the sec officer managed to get out his baton and stun him. I then went to medbay to check on the victim and later was PM'd by Samman claiming that chasing the vampire's kidnap victim was valid-hunt, despite the rules clearly justifying saving kidnap victims. He also claimed my actions with the security's gun was valid-hunt despite the vampire having chased and attacked us and attempted to take the gun. I felt like Samman had gotten the details wrong once again and tried explaining that we were not chasing and attacking the vampire, that they were chasing and attacking us, but he felt like I didn't care about the rules and banned me.

Your ckey (Byond username): offtopicchair
Your Discord name (if applicable): offtopicchair

Involvment in incident: Was the vampire's target. Watched the events while he was dead since the vampire killed him while he was being rescued.

Agreement/disagreement with described events: Yes

Your ckey (Byond username): rufusvanilee
Your Discord name (if applicable): rufusvanilee

Involvment in incident: Was the vampire

Agreement/disagreement with described events: Yes

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by falconignite
small clarification

[necaladun]

Hi there, apologies for the delay here - heads have all been very busy, one has had to step down, and this case requires some log-digging, so I've stepped in to give a hand in this case with Headmin approval. @Abydos has also stepped in to help with the Log-Diving side, as our resident log-bot.

 

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, falconignite said:

He says I had been warned multiple times for valid hunt rules, but I had only received an admin PM once before (I think it was him, but it was a month ago so not sure) about valid hunt under a very different context in which I believe was also incorrect.

You are correct here. The ban note will be updated to reflect this mistake on Samman's part. Overall this doesn't change the situation much - one warning should be more than enough, and isn't guaranteed. This does reflect the ease of appeal however

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, falconignite said:

In the previous incident, which I think it was also Samman

The previous case was with Retrograde115. Note is as follows: "As an engiborg on NT default, assisted security in beating a cling to death in medbay, and then proceeded to chase another cling into space. Warned for validhunting." 

If there's an issue with that we can look into that separately, but for this case, the only relevance is that you've been warned before...not that it is relevant, as you are not claiming to never have heard of the validhunting rule before. Yes, some players try to pull that card at times despite them having been warned previously.
 

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, falconignite said:

Here are the events leading up to my current ban:

This appears generally accurate leading up to the logs.

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, falconignite said:

I knew that the vampire would kill the officer with the gun if I didn't grab it first so moved quickly and managed to grab it before the vampire and shot at the vampire, missing almost all the shots and throwing the gun onto the floor as the sec officer managed to get out his baton and stun him.

This is the part where we step into valid hunting territory. Once security enters, you should not be engaging - this is mainly due to the balance problems of the entire crew lynching antags when assisting security. Your priority should be on rescuing the crew if you wish to help, who had been left well behind at this point. 

 

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, falconignite said:

I then went to medbay to check on the victim and later was PM'd by Samman claiming that chasing the vampire's kidnap victim was valid-hunt

This is inaccurate. Samman never said the chasing their victim was valid-hunting. Logs of the PM conversation are as follows:

Quote

 

2023-10-07T03:46:59] ADMIN: Adminhelp: [REDACTED]: Lila Uoki, valid hunting rufus the vampire when he is not in imediate danger or was attacked - heard by 2 non-AFK admins.

[2023-10-07T03:51:11] ADMIN: PM: Samman166/(Zouri Essouser)->Falconignite/(Lila Uoki): hey there, you have previously been warned for valid hunting so please explain why you chased a vampire into maintenance once again?

[2023-10-07T03:51:45] ADMIN: PM: Falconignite/(Lila Uoki)->Samman166/(Zouri Essouser): It was the other cargo tech who chased, I followed and saw the vampire attacking so i pushed him away

[2023-10-07T03:53:06] ADMIN: PM: Falconignite/(Lila Uoki)->Samman166/(Zouri Essouser): We're all cargo techs and we were all by cargo so it makes sense to help a kidnapping victim by cargo

[2023-10-07T03:53:38] ADMIN: PM: Samman166/(Zouri Essouser)->Falconignite/(Lila Uoki): there is combat logs of you and them exchanging disarms leading all out of maints and then you continueing to disarm them as security is trying to deal with them

[2023-10-07T03:54:03] ADMIN: PM: Samman166/(Zouri Essouser)->Falconignite/(Lila Uoki): and both being cargo techs does not exempt you from validhunting rules

[2023-10-07T03:54:42] ADMIN: PM: Falconignite/(Lila Uoki)->Samman166/(Zouri Essouser): well I stopped pushing after sec take over, its his own fault for chasing us

 

As Samman said - you continuing to fight and disarm the vampire is the issue here, not that chasing the kidnap victim is validhunting. Engaging the vampire while security is engaging them is the issue here. While it may be seen as reasonable for some people to assist security due to their characters personality, in the end this generally means that everyone attempts to be a hero, and involve themselves in sec affairs whenever possible. This also creates a lot of chaos for security to deal with - especially if one came across the scene to find a downed sec officer, and a cargo-tech shooting the sec officer with a laser!

Quote

[2023-10-07T03:46:23] ATTACK: Falconignite/(Lila Uoki)(175,131,2) against (Arsr Ehiz)(174,131,2): Shot with a /obj/item/projectile/beam/laser 28.57% blocked

In this case, your involvement very much could have made things worse. Had your priority stayed with rescuing the dead body of your coworker, I don't see there being an issue here. When your priority shifted into trying to take out the vampire, that's when the issue begins. Remember that if you're able to withdraw safely, you generally should - Paradise is not a 'stand your ground' state.

As per @Nerfection's reply to your appeal - 

If you're willing to accept you went too far in this incident and crossed the line into valid hunting, the ban can be lifted - post an appeal so it can be handled via the proper channels.

Overall this complaint has some merit in the mistake about multiple warnings, and clarification has been delivered about the valid-hunting issue. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by necaladun